How Long For Electric Formula?

[Bardahl77]

Considering folks are already selling electric "crate" motors that bolt in place of Chevy V8s and the like, how long do you think it will be before SCCA makes a class for electric formula? Or maybe two, wings and no wings, no wings with a 100-120 hp motor, wings with a 250 hp motor. (And you could accurately talk about your "motor")

Spec chassis? Homebrew? What might be in place for cost control? Do you think they'd be more expensive than ICE cars? Or less? Or do like the FF, remotor an existing chassis.

I'd like to see something like an FV/FST setup where you can build your own chassis to specs or buy a slider and finish it off. It has the potential for being less expensive I think, at least in yearly costs. No oil, gas, might still need some cooling plumbing, but a motor might run for years, maybe with the occasional bearing replacement. Brushless motors have less to wear.

Downsides - might be a heavier car, new crash/fire protocols have to be learned, driver might sometimes have to jump out the car instead of step, tech shed has to read ohms to determine if motor has been rewound with more coils and make sure there's no hidden extra batteries (Smokey would have hidden them in frame rails), cars sound like neighborhood kids playing with RC cars.

The Tesla race series that's getting started is going to have a support race for drivers of the future in 50hp electric karts that do 90 mph.

Probably see something like this in NASA before SCCA. I, for one, prefer the smell and noise of combustion, but I'd sure like to feel what instant torque feels like coming up from turn 3B at Pacific Raceways...

[FVRacer21]

EVSR.net

i had to manually type in my browser. I don’t think they have all the web credentials right.

chrisz

[phantomjock]

For some period there has been an operator in the NE US (Entropy Racing) running a series using the SCCA Spec Racer as a basis for an electric racer. (Seems to be some server issues at www.EVSR.net). Here is a link to their series:
http://entropyracing.net/esrs

There was a Crowdfunding (Palmer Motorsports) effort to run at Pike's Peak: < link here

As battery technology continues to improve, it may be the only racing in Kalifornia.

Cheers - Jim

[lowside67]

I have been looking at this myself - the idea of converting my Stohr to electric has been on the back of my mind.

However, with the requirements I had - big power (ideally at least 300hp peak and 200ft-lbs of torque over the rev range) and wanting it to be able to do at least a 20 minute session at time attack, the answers are still VERY expensive and very heavy.

I am watching keenly though. There is so much opportunity here, it's amazing.

-Mark

[Purple Frog]

What? And miss out on the joy of changing jets for different barometric pressure! The horror of it!

Going to happen, and happen faster than many think.

[chrisw52]

I will let people in this forum speculate on the possibilities.

• Fact: there is already an electric motorcycle with a 90+ mile range and 85kw motor that weighs in at 450lbs without the rider.
• This motorcycle can recharge the battery in an hour using already available car chargers.
• A formula ford has an 85kw ICE at ~900lbs (being generous here)

So the question(s) of the day is how much does that electric motorcycle powerplant weigh (motor, battery, control & charging hardwar)? The Kent engine weighs in at 283lbs and gas is 6lbs/gallon. How far would that electric drivetrain take a 900lb formula ford on the long track at thunderhill?

[Jerry Kehoe]

Thank God I'm old so I won't have to deal with the slot car racers! It may be the future but I certainly can wait!

[fitfan]

its the inevitable future, you want the younger next generation to get interested in racing? its going to be EV drivetrain. i dont think there is going to be any SCCA series anytime very soon unless someone like rivian or VW dropped a load of money on a spec car / drivetrain. (skeptical) but it is inevitable and will happen. and a lot of it will be pro series/events trickling down as more and more championships and lap records fall to EV cars... its just what 'kids' will identify with and aspire to. also a little longer term will be interesting to see if fuel cell overtake batteries or not.

[Jnovak]

I built this electric to use a bolt in motor and existing battery packages.

Here is a picture. Finished 11th oa at the pikes peak hillclimb not bad considering that the driver and team had never been there before

Cant figure out how post the picture on this notepad.

[Bardahl77]

Maybe they can put speakers on the back and have a synthesized sounds of a V-10 F1 engine that revs to 20,000 RPM.

[Marty Nygard]

The Volkswagen electric racer for Pikes Peak (check it out on youtube) had to have a front end speaker that beeped to warn spectators when driving around the paddock. My former DSR driver Steve thought that was a bit wimpy and suggested several Metallica cuts that would serve better.
Jays electric Novacar was a great attempt that only suffered from lack of modern battery technology.
Marty

[phantomjock]

I like the idea of cards in the spokes

[Fred Michael]

As someone who races electric formula cars for a living, I am absolutely opposed to any sort of homebuilt or conversion formula/ sports racer electric race cars on the grounds that it is next to impossible to engineer in the necessary safety measures for both the driver and anyone else who could come into contact with the car on track or in the paddock. Now, if you want to race a production electric car with all of the manufacturer engineered safety systems in place, have at it

[Daryl DeArman]

Whenever they eventually add Formula Prius to the Formula car alphabet soup, I certainly hope that they have their own run group. Not sure how a crash between an electric vehicle and one that is not, shakes out when the non-electric car becomes an unintended circuit (only guessing that Formula Prius cars would have some method to insulate cockpit).

[provamo]

electric cars at solar powered facilities and the scca will not be involved

arrive and drive

[BTennessen]

EVSR.net
i had to manually type in my browser. I don’t think they have all the web credentials right.
chrisz

Their site has some issues but their Facebook page works and is pretty active - https://www.facebook.com/ElectrifyingRacing I've been meaning to get in touch with them to see if I can rent a seat for a weekend next season.


I upgraded my daily driver to a used electric in February and ever since I've been looking at all my track/race/fun cars and thinking about converting them. The motorcycle chrisw52 mentioned would be a great donor for parts but is likely more expensive than finding battery packs from a more common car. Finding the right balance of horsepower, range and battery density is difficult but can be done.

[TedV]

The EVSR folks also respond to that old thing called a Telephone. I spoke to them before sending in their safety page links to the autocross SEB & MAC regarding "Member input regarding electric vehicles in Mod autocross classes."

[jrh3]

Maybe they can put speakers on the back and have a synthesized sounds of a V-10 F1 engine that revs to 20,000 RPM.

Ad some burned methanol exhaust fragrance ....

[Matt Clark]

There has been some light talks with Tesla about trying an electric build for an amateur formula car class, but it never really went far. I am not sure if I am glad or not. It would be cool to be part of, but engine noise is a big deal to me.

[Rick Iverson]

Do you have an algorithm for that process?

What? And miss out on the joy of changing jets for different barometric pressure! The horror of it!

Going to happen, and happen faster than many think.

[Daryl DeArman]

Do you have an algorithm for that process?

https://airdensityonline.com/free-calcs/

[EYERACE]

Can you just see it now?.......homologation crash tests in the rain for an electric car.

[Captain]

The EVSR has been running with NASA NE.

They don't really have a class for them, so they have been running in the unlimited class. But due to their lap times, they have been running in the slower race group, and not actually with SU. So, they kinda have there own group going.

Fun to watch, weird how quite they are. I enjoyed watching them zip thru the Miatas and E30s.

They have some tow rig...old firetruck. The generator they bring along to charge there cars is crazy. Big trailer mount diesel back up thing that could power a small town.


Jim

[Fred Michael]

That EVSR car is EVERYTHING that I am warning about

[Marty Nygard]

For the rest of you, I would advise a quick look at Fred's profile where it says:
Occupation:Race Mechanic at Andretti Autosport
If anyone on this forum knows about what it takes to race an electrical car safely it would be Fred. I personally would hate to be the first driver to toast a corner worker who was merely trying to help me out. It may help to remember all the discussion and safety training when F1 switched over to hybrid powertrains.
Marty

[Daryl DeArman]

The generator they bring along to charge there cars is crazy. Big trailer mount diesel back up thing that could power a small town.

Those electric cars are saving the environment!

[Roland V. Johnson]

Remember the upcoming mandate for electric cars is in a state that currently does not have enough electricity supply for everyone to run their air conditioners on at the same time. Rolling blackouts go into effect.

[Bardahl77]

I have my order in for the compact household nuclear generator

[Marty Nygard]

Actually, the Small Modular Reactor (SMR) is still undergoing it's painful development. Basically a development of the old Navy Nuke. Probably too big for a single household, however.
You should consider some or all of the renewable resources available.
M

[Daryl DeArman]

Remember the upcoming mandate for electric cars is in a state that currently does not have enough electricity supply for everyone to run their air conditioners on at the same time. Rolling blackouts go into effect.

Because they didn't stop to think that it's not generally windy in the hot summer months so all those wind turbines aren't doing squat when we need them. All that solar isn't much help either when the sun's down and it's still 90+ degrees outside.

They'll probably add about a billion pounds of batteries to store all that energy. . . that'll save the environment!

[R. Pare]

This what you need for a complete conversion to electric when CA mandates it:

[fitfan]

electric motor is far superior and more efficient compared to an internal combustion engine.

petrol, is superior to batteries to store and carry energy

an electric motor does not need to get its power from batteries. many other sources are viable and getting more viable.

batteries are popular right now as a solution due to cost and manufacturing simplicity.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Rodney, what do you think are the best viable options for portable energy storage?

[Jerry Kehoe]

Gas or diesel fuel isn't the only fuel that can be used in an internal combustion engine, hydrogen is very efficient and is fairly pollution free just happens to be expensive to make right now. Batteries are now buried which has got to be as much as an environmental mess so each alternative presents it's own problem. For now some kind of a hybrid seems to be the most practical since distance is not as much of an issue. Love to have my EV halfway across Nevada and run out of battery or sit somewhere waiting a few hours for it to charge so I can continue. Short term EV works best for city and short term trips which probably is where most of the pollution is generated anyway. Nice our crack Governor just waves his fairy wand and proclaims things done while running for President in 2024!

[Bardahl77]

Rodney, what do you think are the best viable options for portable energy storage?

Zero Point Modules using enhanced Casimir batteries are a possibility.

However, a lot of things will become more efficient once a strong leader repeals the laws of thermodynamics.

[douglap1]

I seem to recall when Obama was president, the EPA was proposing to limit emissions on non-street legal vehicles.

So if dems get back in power, don't be surprised if some EPA zealots show up to impound our race cars one day. Then we'll all be looking for electric motors in a hurry.

Not a Trump fanboy - just sayin'...

[TedV]

That EVSR car is EVERYTHING that I am warning about

Fred, care to clarify? I am not happy about the lack of BMS even with using the LiFePO batteries. I also understand the other racers and corner workers do not get 4 days worth of electrical safety training. Since it is your day job, what would your thoughts be on EV in say autocross and Time Trial which would hopefully reduce the vehicle to vehicle impact? I would think there would need to be a review process similar to FSAE-Electric.

[fitfan]

Rodney, what do you think are the best viable options for portable energy storage?

hydrogen is the most obvious. a few thing that make that more interesting for racing (manufacturer's series) is it would drive fuel cell development.

hydrogen can be "locally" made. and has a much smaller environmental footprint than making petrol. although a more footprint than making just charge electricity... the net is hydrogen is the most environmentally friendly choice of those 3. and it can be transported, stored and sold point of sale much like petrol vs the problem around delivering electrical charge. it eliminates the footprint of the very large and not so environmentally friendly batteries. exploding zeppelins aside (plenty of exploding petrol issues solved) hydrogen is easier to store and contain safely than a platform of 800v batteries.

technology transformations are often not the most sensible and viable, they are very often the most "adoptable" by the market. and thats the answer to why do people buy battery powered EV's ?? (they don't make a lot of sense large scale) they do make sense small scale and because they is zero change to adopt them right now. but thats not entirely sustainable unless some significant battery changes and local power generation changes happen. also batteries are lazy stupid easy to package. fuel cell not as much.

EV is the superior drivetrain, the only question is from where does the onboard electricity come from? Fuel cells are still a step behind in market viability while batteries are getting all the funding.

[Fred Michael]

Fred, care to clarify? I am not happy about the lack of BMS even with using the LiFePO batteries. I also understand the other racers and corner workers do not get 4 days worth of electrical safety training. Since it is your day job, what would your thoughts be on EV in say autocross and Time Trial which would hopefully reduce the vehicle to vehicle impact? I would think there would need to be a review process similar to FSAE-Electric.

Autocross definitely reduces the possibility of an electric vehicle becoming electrically unsafe due to a crash but there MUST be safety and warning systems designed into the vehicle. This is a problem that is essentially a non-issue in a production vehicle because the OEM has spent millions of dollars to make their vehicle safe. All of that goes out the window on a conversion vehicle like a formula car or sports racer. The systems and training on how to use those systems that need to be in place for the safety of the driver as well as ANYONE who may come into contact with that vehicle are just beyond the scope of what a small manufacturer can afford, let alone a home builder.

[chrisw52]

Autocross definitely reduces the possibility of an electric vehicle becoming electrically unsafe due to a crash but there MUST be safety and warning systems designed into the vehicle. This is a problem that is essentially a non-issue in a production vehicle because the OEM has spent millions of dollars to make their vehicle safe. All of that goes out the window on a conversion vehicle like a formula car or sports racer. The systems and training on how to use those systems that need to be in place for the safety of the driver as well as ANYONE who may come into contact with that vehicle are just beyond the scope of what a small manufacturer can afford, let alone a home builder.

and over 100 years ago people were saying the same thing about that new fangled horseless carriage.

"times they are a changen" - Neil Young