"Rains" ???

[starfmguy]

Wow ! I see the FM/FX runoffs race results are final. At least now we know, based on the protest rulings at the runoffs, that tires in FM are basically open. So, next season I am going to run the new Goodyear R160 compound or Hoosier 25 compound gumball slicks with a few little shallow sipes on them, call them "rain tires" and run in the dry with them ("rain tires" are "open", so there are no rules or restrictions, they don't have to be a factory made rain tires, and I can run them any time I want, right? And even if it is chicken****, I can get away with it, right?) !!! I had no idea it would be that easy to run soft slicks totally against our rule for spec GY 470 compound slicks. If it is not spelled out properly in the rules, it certainly is not in the spirit and ideals of our FM class, but what the hell... I could have sworn that everyone understood the FM tire rule, but I have to admit - I did not see this potential loophole in the written rule.... (yes - even in FX, we still run the December 2019 FM rules). Now we have a good old fashioned tire war !!! I have a big enough trailer to fit at least 6 sets of "slicks" for any condition. P.S. BOO !!!

[Jphoenix]

Somebody was running a tire other than the 470 compound? Who was that? Running the soft GY tire?

[starfmguy]

You guys are so funny !!! I give a big opening for people to really say some rude things, and -- "crickets" ? LOL !!! (I know, the "loophole" is probably getting "fixed", but I needed to rant a little, please forgive me !) On to Indy 2021 !!!

[RussMcB]

You guys are so funny !!! I give a big opening for people to really say some rude things, and -- "crickets" ? LOL !!! (I know, the "loophole" is probably getting "fixed", but I needed to rant a little, please forgive me !) On to Indy 2021 !!!

Why haven't you responded to jphoenix's questions?

[Daryl DeArman]

Devil's advocate here. Not sure who it was/wasn't, however as long as they were complying with appropriate subset of rules, it's not cheating.

All the entries, save one were FM's. If it wasn't the FM, what were his pertinent tire rules?

If it was an FM you have these two tidbits:


(A) Rain tires may be used at any time. In the event that a grid position is determined by use of a manufactured rain tire (excluding hand grooved tires), the competitor may elect to start the race on either therain tire which was used in qualifying or slicks which are otherwise compliant.

(B) If a competitor chooses to start the race on any tires that were not used in a qualifying session for therace and not appropriately marked, the competitor shall forfeit his or her grid position and start fromthe back of the grid. This forfeiture of grid position shall not apply if all qualifying sessions for the racewere run under rain or wet conditions.


So if he started from the back or used the tires in a Q session or wasn't the FM or was protested citing the wrong rule . . .

[Jphoenix]

Well, I hope they don’t spec a rain tire to fix the loophole because I just bought a brand new set of Hoosier rains and if they specify Goodyear rains that will be bad for me.

I don’t normally run rains on a dry track, so it seems someone was exploiting a loophole, in fact we just had a race up here where everyone in the 20 car field was on slicks and it started raining when the green dropped. That was fun!

[Daryl DeArman]

I think it's fan-fricken-tastic that somebody read the rulebook for what it said and not what they thought it said.

I think it would be even better if they simply changed the rule to say you may not utilize rain tires unless (insert race official title here) declares the session a rain session. No need to spec what rain tires may be used as it's only going to be declared a rain session if it's really raining/downpour imminent.

[Dwayne Anderson]

I think it's fan-fricken-tastic that somebody read the rulebook for what it said and not what they thought it said.

I think it would be even better if they simply changed the rule to say you may not utilize rain tires unless (insert race official title here) declares the session a rain session. No need to spec what rain tires may be used as it's only going to be declared a rain session if it's really raining/downpour imminent.

The tire was a soft compound hand grooved slick

[Daryl DeArman]

The tire was a soft compound hand grooved slick

I assumed such.

[dalz]

The tires used were 255-compound Goodyear slicks hand-grooved by the GY technicians. If any FM competitor went to them and demanded "a rain tire", this is exactly what they would have made for you. The tire choice was upheld as legal through a protest and a subsequent appeal.

As for how they worked, the driver said that they performed well for about 4 laps, then faded badly. His later laps were up to 4sec. off his earlier pace. In 55deg. weather near sunset. Good luck if you want to try this in CA or TX in July. It was a gamble that met the rules and paid off with a podium finish. All successful gambles need luck....

[Daryl DeArman]

The tires used were 255-compound Goodyear slicks hand-groved by the GY technicians. If any FM competitor went to them and demanded "a rain tire", this is exactly what they would have made for you. The tire choice was upheld as legal through a protest and a subsequent appeal.

As for how they worked, the driver said that they performed well for about 4 laps, then faded badly. His later laps were up to 4sec. off his earlier pace. In 55deg. weather near sunset. Good luck if you want to try this in CA or TX in July. It was a gamble that met the rules and paid off with a podium finish. All successful gambles need luck....

Maybe next time much fewer, smaller, shallower grooves.

No requirement that they work well in the rain, nor that any grooves still remain at the end of the event, or the first lap for that matter

[dalz]

Maybe next time much fewer, smaller, shallower grooves.

No requirement that they work well in the rain, nor that any grooves still remain at the end of the event, or the first lap for that matter

I get that, but then the interpretation of whether it is a rain tire could come into question. The tires were ordered and purchased as rain tires, with no other caveats.

Further, I don't think it would be wise to change any rule. I don't see any loophole to close. I wouldn't want the choice of going to rains solely up to any official, nor would I think many other racers would.

[Daryl DeArman]

I get that, but then the interpretation of whether it is a rain tire could come into question. The tires were ordered and purchased as rain tires, with no other caveats.

It certainly could come into question, but that doesn't matter. There's no prohibition against utilizing hand-grooved slicks as a rain tire. There's no mandate that those tires be "manufactured". In fact the rules specifically address the starting grid position when a hand-grooved slick is utilized. The GCR also defines a rain tire. There's nothing in that definition addressing the number of grooves, production quantity, availability, etc. Yes, absolutely starting the race on a commercially available rain tire avoids those arguments all together.

Further, I don't think it would be wise to change any rule. I don't see any loophole to close. I wouldn't want the choice of going to rains solely up to any official, nor would I think many other racers would.

I guess that would depend on how this all shakes out over time. GoPro showing somebody rolling of the grid with a hand-grooved slick and taking the green flag with a visible groove still in the tire, could finish the race on a nice sticky Avon and just say he decided to start the race on a rain tire.

[Jphoenix]

What if I enter the runoffs in whatever class (even doorslammer) with a very sticky tire (you decide which would be best) with one groove down the center and call it a rain tire?

Are there specs on when a tire becomes a rain and no longer the slick compound it was modified from? Seems a slippery slope (no pun here). Maybe this discussion falls under the sportsmanship rule - if there is one?

[Daryl DeArman]

What if I enter the runoffs in whatever class (even doorslammer) with a very sticky tire (you decide which would be best) with one groove down the center and call it a rain tire?

I'm not aware of another class that requires a spec tire which allows for a "rain tire" to be used at any time. There might be one/some, just saying I'm not aware of them.

Several class that spec a tire will also spec a rain tire.

In the classes that allow for any rain tire to be used, there's usually something like the below limiting when they may be used:

Any tires (brand, size, tread or construction) fitting the 13 x 6 rims may be used when the ChiefSteward declares a rain race.


Classes that permit any tire to be utilized at any time have no need to address the use of rain tires.

[dalz]

On to Indy 2021 !!!

On to Indy in what? An FM? Barring some 11th-hour political wrangling, that car is now officially a nice garage ornament. What to do now?