Should fb be in fa????

[david oleary]

Just wondering what the FB owners are thinking after watching the runoffs yesterday.
as a FB owner i don't think so. not sure where we should be but i don't think FA is correct
for us!!!!
Also i been In this position before because i am older and i had a very competitive RT5 super vee
at one time with the latest and greatest 1800 motor and when SCCA changed the rules in that
class we could not continue to run FA due to cost. Also drove a FM for years and now they are legal in FX
and now some super vee's will be legal in FX

YOUR THOUGHTS?

[S Lathrop]

Without the Swift 016, F1000 would be very competitive in FA. The fact is that the 016 is clearly the pace setter in FA and by a significant margin.

There is a big upside to F1000. No other car in FA is even vaguely price competitive with the cost to build and run a F1000. The cost to build a F1000 is significantly less than either a FF or a FC.

[david oleary]

Without the Swift 016, F1000 would be very competitive in FA. The fact is that the 016 is clearly the pace setter in FA and by a significant margin.

There is a big upside to F1000. No other car in FA is even vaguely price competitive with the cost to build and run a F1000. The cost to build a F1000 is significantly less than either a FF or a FC.

014 Mazda powered won the runoffs. then the 016 and the PFM struggled to
compete. Toyota powered dropped out, but in the long run if you ae a F1000
i think you will have a great time all season but get crushed at the runoffs.
Alex Mayer is very very fast in F1000 but 4 seconds off at indy FA time in 2017 i think

[Daryl DeArman]

014 Mazda powered won the runoffs. then the 016 and the PFM struggled to
compete. Toyota powered dropped out, but in the long run if you ae a F1000
i think you will have a great time all season but get crushed at the runoffs.
Alex Mayer is very very fast in F1000 but 4 seconds off at indy FA time in 2017 i think

With new engine rules for F1000 cars in FA, I could see them quite competitive. 220 HP range isn't going to cut it though.

[S Lathrop]

014 Mazda powered won the runoffs. then the 016 and the PFM struggled to
compete. Toyota powered dropped out, but in the long run if you ae a F1000
i think you will have a great time all season but get crushed at the runoffs.
Alex Mayer is very very fast in F1000 but 4 seconds off at indy FA time in 2017 i think

What you saw at the run offs this year was a new FA set of rules. The 016 has been slowed quite a bit. What we did not get a chance to see is what a top level F1000 would do in that field.

There has been quite an advance in the Citation FC over the last 5 or 6 years and nothing has been done on a Citation F1000 over that period. I think that might be true of the other F1000 makes as well.

[david oleary]

What you saw at the run offs this year was a new FA set of rules. The 016 has been slowed quite a bit. What we did not get a chance to see is what a top level F1000 would do in that field.

There has been quite an advance in the Citation FC over the last 5 or 6 years and nothing has been done on a Citation F1000 over that period. I think that might be true of the other F1000 makes as well.

As far as i know under the current rules with a built 08 GSXR 1000 ENGINE
the best number i heard off the dyno is 209 HP and the cost to get there is around 12k to 15k
and no one knows how long it will live?????

In the early days of CSR-DSR these motors did not live long at 195 hp.

[S Lathrop]

As far as i know under the current rules with a built 08 GSXR 1000 ENGINE
the best number i heard off the dyno is 209 HP and the cost to get there is around 12k to 15k
and no one knows how long it will live?????

In the early days of CSR-DSR these motors did not live long at 195 hp.

Look at the cost of an Atlantic motor or the rebuilds. 15K doesn't get the engine out of the shop.

[Jnovak]

Slow them down a bit for FX or speed them up for FA. I would much prefer the FX solution because of costs and safety. Another alternative solutioni is to require all FA cars to use composite tubs and allow 1200cc to 1400cc mc engines at a lower weight than current FA min weights. Imo this would be a great solution that could help FA SURVIVE AND GROW. I would get involved if something like one of the above 2 ideas happened!

[Daryl DeArman]

As far as i know under the current rules with a built 08 GSXR 1000 ENGINE
the best number i heard off the dyno is 209 HP and the cost to get there is around 12k to 15k
and no one knows how long it will live?????

A stock Aprillia is 217HP, with compromises that would allow at least a reasonable expectation it would last to the end of the warranty, idle at stop lights without overheating, and run on pump gas. There's a V4 1000cc Duck that makes 221. MOTO GP bikes make in excess of 240HP from 1000cc.

I realize the CR may (I don't know but suspect likely) to all be a bit higher in these engines than the current SCCA rules allow. However, if I was starting with a blank sheet of paper and Tucker's old checkbook there's no good reason to start with a 1000cc GSXR platform. Maybe a ZX14 that's been bored and then de-stroked to arrive at 1000cc.

[Jnovak]

A stock Aprillia is 217HP, with compromises that would allow at least a reasonable expectation it would last to the end of the warranty, idle at stop lights without overheating, and run on pump gas. There's a V4 1000cc Duck that makes 221. MOTO GP bikes make in excess of 240HP from 1000cc.

I realize the CR may (I don't know but suspect likely) to all be a bit higher in these engines than the current SCCA rules allow. However, if I was starting with a blank sheet of paper and Tucker's old checkbook there's no good reason to start with a 1000cc GSXR platform. Maybe a ZX14 that's been bored and then de-stroked to arrive at 1000cc.

Big $$$$ or bigger $$$$$$$$$$ Daryl. I always prefer the lower $$$ solution but that is just me

[Daryl DeArman]

Big $$$$ or bigger $$$$$$$$$$ Daryl. I always prefer the lower $$$ solution but that is just me

Yes, me too. I'm not attempting to play in the FA and frankly wouldn't even with 5x the net worth.

However, I was speaking to what's possible within the current rules, without regards to cost.

I believe lobbying for rules that make it possible to be competitive with the current high dollar cars at a fraction of the cost would fall on deaf ears.

[Thomas Copeland]

You telling me this wasn't expected? What did they think was going to happen? That we F1000 drivers were going to flock like sheep to race head-to-head with real FA's?

The CRB and the BOD are fully responsible for this situation. They had their agenda. They did what they wanted to do. They didn't listen to the competitors, and now they got this. How do we go forward and fix this situation? Well, since we can't depend on the CRB or the BOD to act in our best interest, I see no path forward, at least as far as SCCA club racing is concerned. Unless they suddenly snap out of it and get a case of the regrets and do something actually productive for a change (not likely). You may get the occasional one off F1000, but come on, the rest of us probably really aren't interested under the current rules. Those rules are pretty stupid. Upping the speed on an F1000 to compete head-to-head with FA is even more dumb. It's also probably criminal, or at least the aftermath of what inevitability probably will happen would be. That liability release won't be worth the paper it's written on. This is negligence. There's no release for that.

F1000 is more suited to running in FX. But don't tell anyone on the CRB or the BOD that. That will make sure it doesn't happen. Slap a rev limiter on a F1000 and presto. Done. You don't need confusing dyno chart studies and complex set of restrictor plates, one for that engine, another for that one and so on (as I believe was suggested at one time). Rev limiter on when we run SCCA Club, off when we run SCCA Pro.

This year the NorthAm F1000 is suffering a bit from lack of entries. I can tell you that there would have been a lot more if it hadn't been for this pandemic. I would have done at least 3 (I even put down a deposit on two of them). Crowe had tornado hit his house so that put him out. Others have had their issues. It's been a lousy year all around. I'm certainly hoping we can get F1000 entries up a lot higher in 2021. As for my participation in any SCCA Club FA event, not under the current rules.

[Jnovak]

Good thought starters Thomas!

Do you think a single rpm limit will work for most or all engines? What RPM?

[david oleary]

Good thought starters Thomas!

Do you think a single rpm limit will work for most or all engines? What RPM?

i would be open to something that is cost affected, but redesigning my car and spending
thousands of dollars to install a Aprilla, or V4 Duck, or Moto GP motor, just does not make sense
and is crazy money,

i spent the money in 2017 to make my car a P2 and ran both FB and P2 at the runoffs (did not go well)
in the same car, i would like to run FA next year but don't think it would
be able to be competitive at the runoffs.

[S Lathrop]

F1000 is more suited to running in FX. But don't tell anyone on the CRB or the BOD that. That will make sure it doesn't happen. Slap a rev limiter on a F1000 and presto. Done. You don't need confusing dyno chart studies and complex set of restrictor plates, one for that engine, another for that one and so on (as I believe was suggested at one time). Rev limiter on when we run SCCA Club, off when we run SCCA Pro.

The big down side of F1000 running in FA is that you have to build the package right at the limit of performance and that is expensive.

It is often forgotten that F1000 is an outgrowth of F2000. And the F1000 package, properly de-tuned would probably be more compatible in FX. The idea of limiting power with a rev-limiter has a very appealing side effect, the engine life would be dramatically improved. The only problem I see is that the F1000 is a open formula vs, all the other cars in FX are spec formula cars. That may be an insurmountable issue.

One way to make this reclassification go forward is for you and maybe a couple other F1000 competitors work with SCCA and install data boxes on their cars and see what it will take to make this happen.

A little history. F1000 numbers began declining years before it was merged into FA. Merging F1000 into FA kept the class from being demoted to a regional only class and dumped into FS. As a sub-class of FA you can still race in the majors and do the run offs. Given the numbers, F1000 would have been gone long ago. And that is a sad thought to me because I think F1000 is the most cost effective formula car relative to its performance level in SCCA. The engine/transmission package for a F1000 is way less expensive that the transmission alone for a F2000. It is like you pay for the transmission and get the engine for free.

[Teuobk]

Why would FX be the target? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to try to join up with FC rather than FM (excuse me, FX)? Based on lap records, FC is only a little slower than FB (~3-5% depending on the track), but FX is *a lot* slower (~8-10%).

In fact, with the 25 lb increase to FB's minimum weight earlier this year, I'd bet a K7/K8-powered FB that was previously at 1000 lbs is now pretty close to parity with FC.

That said, I'd rather race against the slightly slower FAs, perhaps helped by undoing that 25 lb weight increase, versus slowing down my car a lot so as to not obliterate the FMs. The engine doesn't even sound alive until it's above 10000 rpm.

Jeff
Phoenix F1K.12

[Jnovak]

The big down side of F1000 running in FA is that you have to build the package right at the limit of performance and that is expensive.

It is often forgotten that F1000 is an outgrowth of F2000. And the F1000 package, properly de-tuned would probably be more compatible in FX. The idea of limiting power with a rev-limiter has a very appealing side effect, the engine life would be dramatically improved. The only problem I see is that the F1000 is a open formula vs, all the other cars in FX are spec formula cars. That may be an insurmountable issue.

One way to make this reclassification go forward is for you and maybe a couple other F1000 competitors work with SCCA and install data boxes on their cars and see what it will take to make this happen.

A little history. F1000 numbers began declining years before it was merged into FA. Merging F1000 into FA kept the class from being demoted to a regional only class and dumped into FS. As a sub-class of FA you can still race in the majors and do the run offs. Given the numbers, F1000 would have been gone long ago. And that is a sad thought to me because I think F1000 is the most cost effective formula car relative to its performance level in SCCA. The engine/transmission package for a F1000 is way less expensive that the transmission alone for a F2000. It is like you pay for the transmission and get the engine for free.[/INDENT]

Frankly i do not see any real problems with puting rev restricted FB cars within FX. I would get involved for sure! I would write a letter to the FSRAC BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FROM ME.

[Thomas Copeland]

Frankly i do not see any real problems with puting rev restricted FB cars within FX. I would get involved for sure! I would write a letter to the FSRAC BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FROM ME.

This is the problem Jay. They don't want to hear from anyone. They think they have all the answers and don't want any of our input. That's been the problem with both the CRB and BOD for years. We waste our time writing letters to them they just ignore.

Lathrop is correct in that building F1000 to compete with FA will really stretch the limits of what F1000 is originally designed to be, and that's what makes it inherently dangerous. You're pushing it way beyond the original design envelope. You're basically souping up an FC to run wheel-to-wheel with an FA. Most of us that are in the class just don't want to go there because It's nuts.

The idea of using F1000 to help FA survive as a class is a complete non-starter. Who thought up that idea anyway? It certainly wasn't very well thought out. Yes, we can run with them on track, but so can FC. But neither of us can compete with them.

F1000 might be an open class but dumbing it down to run in FX doesn't take a super human effort. I've talked a few times to others in F1000 about rev limiters because some of the new engines coming into the class are so much faster than the old engines and it could be a way to equal things out. But I'm not sure at what level we would set them.

[Daryl DeArman]

i would be open to something that is cost affected, but redesigning my car and spending
thousands of dollars to install a Aprilla, or V4 Duck, or Moto GP motor, just does not make sense
and is crazy money.

Understood. Club racing an 016 doesn't make sense and is crazy money to me too.

Should rules be put in place that makes it easy/inexpensive for a class to merge into another class and be competitive, or should the rules be in place that merely make it possible? I guess that answer is hugely dependent on whether you are the conventional FA owner or the former FB/F1000 owner

I'd argue the rules are there that make it possible. The fact that nobody has yet chosen to do so, just means the effort required isn't worth the return.

[Thomas Copeland]

I would like to dispute one thing Lathrop wrote. I think the numbers for F1000 were good enough through 2017.

In 2018 the NorthAm F1000 series choose to do regionals instead of Majors because we thought that would be a better experience for us. It was a valid path to the runoffs. Then the SCCA violated their own rule making process and came out with that car count criteria in May 2018 with no notice and them backdating it to January 2017. That's what caused the demise of FB (F1000). It was that blatant act of dishonesty on the SCCA's part that ended FB as a standalone class. Given the proper amount of time and notice I believe we could have gotten the numbers up to survive as a class. But I think that was never the intent of the BOD and the CRB. They weren't interested in seeing FB survive, They had their own agenda, and it didn't include F1000 having their own standalone class as FB. Which is why I trust no one on either of those boards anymore. Let's not re-write history here. We all know what they did.

[S Lathrop]

I would like to dispute one thing Lathrop wrote. I think the numbers for F1000 were good enough through 2017.

In 2018 the NorthAm F1000 series choose to do regionals instead of Majors because we thought that would be a better experience for us. It was a valid path to the runoffs. Then the SCCA violated their own rule making process and came out with that car count criteria in May 2018 with no notice and them backdating it to January 2017. That's what caused the demise of FB (F1000). It was that blatant act of dishonestly on the SCCA's part that ended FB as a standalone class. Given the proper amount of time and notice I believe we could have gotten the numbers up to survive as a class. But I think that was never the intent of the BOD and the CRB. They weren't interested in seeing FB survive, They had their own agenda, and it didn't include F1000 having their own standalone class as FB. Which is why I trust no one one either of those boards anymore. Let's not re-write history here. We all know what they did.

I was on the ground floor when FC/F2000 was first introduced. I built a car and competed in the Canadian Tire series to gain experience with the class. F2000 was first introduced in SCCA as a sub class of FC which was made up of mostly of water cooled Super Vees. The F2000 had zero chance of competing with a FSV. But we grew the numbers of F2000 to where we took over FC and made it a class for F2000. Air cooled FSV were still classed as FC for many years. Bottom line I know something about what it takes to build a national formula car class.

Of the nine 2007 Citations I built, half were build as F1000 cars and the rest were either FF or F2000. For what ever reason F1000 numbers started falling. The rules for doing car counts are written and published. The car counts for F1000 may have understated the actual numbers but the numbers were counted according to the published rules.

Instead of castigating SCCA, get the F1000 guys back on the track so that the numbers can build to meet the minimum for a stand alone national class. If SCCA wanted to eliminate F1000 as you imply, they could have followed the GCR rules for classes and let F1000 decent to a regional only class. The fact that F1000 was given a second chance by merging into FA, shows a favoritism for F1000 that you refuse to recognize.

Quite bashing SCCA and the volunteers that do a lot of the leg work within the club and be a part of the solution to the problem. I would love to be building new F1000 cars.

[Thomas Copeland]

I was on the ground floor when FC/F2000 was first introduced. I built a car and competed in the Canadian Tire series to gain experience with the class. F2000 was first introduced in SCCA as a sub class of FC which was made up of mostly of water cooled Super Vees. The F2000 had zero chance of competing with a FSV. But we grew the numbers of F2000 to where we took over FC and made it a class for F2000. Air cooled FSV were still classed as FC for many years. Bottom line I know something about what it takes to build a national formula car class.

Of the nine 2007 Citations I built, half were build as F1000 cars and the rest were either FF or F2000. For what ever reason F1000 numbers started falling. The rules for doing car counts are written and published. The car counts for F1000 may have understated the actual numbers but the numbers were counted according to the published rules.

Instead of castigating SCCA, get the F1000 guys back on the track so that the numbers can build to meet the minimum for a stand alone national class. If SCCA wanted to eliminate F1000 as you imply, they could have followed the GCR rules for classes and let F1000 decent to a regional only class. The fact that F1000 was given a second chance by merging into FA, shows a favoritism for F1000 that you refuse to recognize.

Quite bashing SCCA and the volunteers that do a lot of the leg work within the club and be a part of the solution to the problem. I would love to be building new F1000 cars.

The volunteers at the track and at the regional level that help put on the show I have a lot of respect for. They are absolutely awesome and I applaud them completely.

I'm afraid to say higher up the food chain and at Topeka they have lost the plot. They have forgotten who they work for and its not for themselves. I'm not alone in this sentiment.

If they were really serious about F1000 keeping their own class (and honest about it), they would have never backdated that car count criteria. They knew what they were doing when they did it and they knew what classes would be most effected by it (Are you telling me they did it while wearing blindfolds?). Once again, I'm not going give them a pass for what they did and I'm not going to let them re-write the history on it. We all know what they did.

[Daryl DeArman]

I was on the ground floor when FC/F2000 was first introduced. I built a car and competed in the Canadian Tire series to gain experience with the class. F2000 was first introduced in SCCA as a sub class of FC which was made up of mostly of water cooled Super Vees. The F2000 had zero chance of competing with a FSV. But we grew the numbers of F2000 to where we took over FC and made it a class for F2000.

And when MC engined FC cars threatened the class status quo the rules were changed at the 11th hour.

The rules for doing car counts are written and published. The car counts for F1000 may have understated the actual numbers but the numbers were counted according to the published rules.

Again, rules that SCCA changed at the 11th hour. There was to be a path to the RunOffs that many with F1000/FB decided to pursue only to again have the rules changed.

Why would anybody wish to focus their efforts on helping the same organization that screwed them twice?

[david oleary]

And when MC engined FC cars threatened the class status quo the rules were changed at the 11th hour.



Again, rules that SCCA changed at the 11th hour. There was to be a path to the Run Offs that many with F1000/FB decided to pursue only to again have the rules changed.

Why would anybody wish to focus their efforts on helping the same organization that screwed them twice?

I don't feel bashing SCCA will do us any good, I feel that running regionals and parking cars did not help either, but that is history and we can't change that either. I would like to go back to OW next year just wondering how.

At this point I would consider running FA next year and believe I could make it to the runoffs in FA I just wish I had a
chance of being competitive at the runoffs, I have a fresh P2 built motor in the car now and a runoff P2 motor being built,
but neither motor are 200 hp, don't think that will cut it in FA, maybe P2 is my best plan B?

[Teuobk]

As one of the six (yes, six) people who actually entered an F1000 in at least one Majors race during the 2020 season, I decided to pull up the results from all of the Majors races and look at the numbers. Here are some take-aways:

• Of the 15 races spread across 6 weekends where at least one F1000 took the green, there were 3 DNFs
• Every race with at least one F1000 had at least two total FA entries
• Of the 5 weekends where where at least one F1000 took the checkers at at least one race, 3 of those weekends saw an F1000 win at least one race (four total wins)
• In no case did an FX entry post a faster lap time than an F1000. Of the eight races where at least one F1000 finished and at least one FX finished, the average margin between the fastest F1000's best lap and the fastest FX's best lap was -4.5 seconds (range: -2.1 to -6.3)
• PFM entries make up a very big portion, possibly even a plurality, of the total FA entries (across all races, not just those with F1000 entries)

Here's the data:



From that, it seems like, at least in the current class alignment, F1000s are competitive in FA.

You would need to slow the F1000s down massively to keep them from dominating FX, were they to be placed in FX.

Separately: Based on this year's Runoffs results and past F1000 results at Road America, F1000s wouldn't have been in contention for the win at this year's Runoffs, but they would have been mid-field.

Jeff

[E1pix]

As a lifetime enthusiast of open wheel and the Runoffs, IMHO, there have been two new, purebred, standout classes created in my time.

They were both called Formula B.

[cjahn]

As one of the six (yes, six) people who actually entered an F1000 in at least one Majors race during the 2020 season, I decided to pull up the results from all of the Majors races and look at the numbers. Here are some take-aways:

• Of the 15 races spread across 6 weekends where at least one F1000 took the green, there were 3 DNFs
• Every race had at least two FA entries
• Of the 5 weekends where where at least one F1000 took the checkers at at least one race, 3 of those weekends saw an F1000 win at least one race (four total wins)
• In no case did an FX entry post a faster lap time than an F1000. Of the eight races where at least one F1000 finished and at least one FX finished, the average margin between the fastest F1000's best lap and the fastest FX's best lap was -4.5 seconds (range: -2.1 to -6.3)
• PFM entries make up a very big portion, possibly even a plurality, of the total FA entries (across all races, not just those with F1000 entries)

Here's the data:



From that, it seems like, at least in the current class alignment, F1000s are competitive in FA.

You would need to slow the F1000s down massively to keep them from dominating FX, were they to be placed in FX.

Separately: Based on this year's Runoffs results and past F1000 results at Road America, F1000s wouldn't have been in contention for the win at this year's Runoffs, but they would have been mid-field.

Jeff

As an FB/F1000 owner and driver for a few years its been fun running with 3-5 in Midwestern Council (mainly Blackhawk, and other mid-west tracks) with a gentlemens rule that we were running on used tires, stock engines, etc... but they are also disappearing and field is getting smaller by the day. (Covid didnt help). But we had a tight crew for awhile having a lot of fun with some pretty good races!

I sold my old rig and hoped to upgrade to something more reliable (old truck and a featherlite?) to hopefully start going to play with the F1000 series, or where the cars are which requires more travel. Will see. I want to get back to Grattan, Gingerman, and visit Summit, and others where the big boys are playing. But $ talks.

Cant go faster and have more fun for less $. Owned two Stohr Fb/F1000, now in a Van Diemen Fb/F1000........ or now FA according to SCCA. But still so much fun! (Been racing for over 20 years..... Historically owned S2's - a few; FC, CFF, P1, and more; currently own 2 S2, P1, and and an FB)

Cj

[JEREMY HILL]

I was able to convince the CRB that F1000 engines needed to be 14.5:1 in order to have a half a chance but they wouldn't budge on the weight at 1025 lbs even after 3 letters explaining to them that no F1000 with a stock motor would add 25 lbs to compete in FA.

Jeremy Hill

[Daryl DeArman]

I was able to convince the CRB that F1000 engines needed to be 14.5:1 in order to have a half a chance but they wouldn't budge on the weight at 1025 lbs even after 3 letters explaining to them that no F1000 with a stock motor would add 25 lbs to compete in FA.

Jeremy Hill

Did somebody suggest with seriousness, to put stock engined F1000 cars in FA at 1025#?

[AEA_Team_Lotus]

Although I have not competed in an F1000 event since 2015, what appears to me is the FB community should give up on SCCA, There is a lot of cars that do not fit SCCA classes but other series such as HSR offer competitive well run events.
Is the solution to have F-1000 run along with FRP and simply use a series specific rule set?
I know that SCCA has an abundance of events and with the limited interest in F-1000 it is difficult to organize a critical mass of cars at each race, but I still love my Stohr and would welcome more opportunities to race the car against other F-1000's, and not let the class die entirely.

[JEREMY HILL]

This is the response to my last letter from August Fastrack

#29005 (JEREMY HILL) Request to Adjust FB Weight for Stock Engines
Thank you for your letter. This change is not recommended. In response to unanimous member input about the competitiveness of former F1000 cars in the FA class, the Club Racing Board revised the rules to allow modified engines. No requests to retain stock engines were received following the incorporation of F1000 into the FA class.

They either don't get it or don't want to. I suggest anyone with an FB try out the FRP series. Twice the track time, very professional and even prize money. Last race is coming up at Atlanta. I would be going If I could get across the border!

Jeremy Hill

[Jnovak]

I was on the ground floor when FC/F2000 was first introduced. I built a car and competed in the Canadian Tire series to gain experience with the class. F2000 was first introduced in SCCA as a sub class of FC which was made up of mostly of water cooled Super Vees. The F2000 had zero chance of competing with a FSV. But we grew the numbers of F2000 to where we took over FC and made it a class for F2000. Air cooled FSV were still classed as FC for many years. Bottom line I know something about what it takes to build a national formula car class.

Of the nine 2007 Citations I built, half were build as F1000 cars and the rest were either FF or F2000. For what ever reason F1000 numbers started falling. The rules for doing car counts are written and published. The car counts for F1000 may have understated the actual numbers but the numbers were counted according to the published rules.

Instead of castigating SCCA, get the F1000 guys back on the track so that the numbers can build to meet the minimum for a stand alone national class. If SCCA wanted to eliminate F1000 as you imply, they could have followed the GCR rules for classes and let F1000 decent to a regional only class. The fact that F1000 was given a second chance by merging into FA, shows a favoritism for F1000 that you refuse to recognize.

Quite bashing SCCA and the volunteers that do a lot of the leg work within the club and be a part of the solution to the problem. I would love to be building new F1000 cars.

Essentially I agree Steve in fact i built 6 customer cars and Brian won the 2010 national runoffs championship in a modified Piper. We would still be in the class except for the escalating engine costs. I tried to slow down the escalation of costs to no avail!

May I suggest that those who are interested form a committee to come up with some proposed ideas for a controlled cost F1000, FB class or whatever it might be called?

[Daryl DeArman]

May I suggest that those who are interested form a committee to come up with some proposed ideas for a controlled cost F1000, FB class or whatever it might be called?

I'd throw out the same suggestion I made almost 15 years ago that fell on deaf ears, a suggestion deemed not necessary because "the engines were already maxed out and they weren't going to get much faster". The same thing people thought in 1970, 1985, 2000 and 2015

[RobLav]

I've been out of Apex for a while and thought I'd check in to see what's happening. Seems not much has changed!