2020 FF Runoffs Road America

[Peter Olivola]

Sorry... ...but I don't understand why that means you should call it a turn.

It's not a turn.

It's a corner station, but send your objection along to the track and I'm sure they'll get right on it.

[tiga57]

If I remember correctly it has to do with the worker stations...5 is not the fifth turn either it’s the 5th station, been that way since the track was built.

[swiftdrivr]

There is a tool available to race control to prevent the scenario you paint and it was used in this situation. The incident was just past 3 which was showing a waving yellow. Station 2 had a standing yellow. That's the one he missed.

He missed it, and I missed it, three times, at zero MPH. Maybe, the first time a the field passes a flag, the flag should be waved, to draw attention to it. I like the "turn before the incident-corner flag", but it's little help if it's not seen.

Still waiting for some bright kid to build a cheap dash-light setup with a flashing yellow light and a turn number beside it. I have a computer that fits in my pocket, surfs the web, and makes phone calls too. A light on my dash controlled by race control seems a small thing to ask for.

[Peter Olivola]

He missed it, and I missed it, three times, at zero MPH. Maybe, the first time a the field passes a flag, the flag should be waved, to draw attention to it. I like the "turn before the incident-corner flag", but it's little help if it's not seen.

Still waiting for some bright kid to build a cheap dash-light setup with a flashing yellow light and a turn number beside it. I have a computer that fits in my pocket, surfs the web, and makes phone calls too. A light on my dash controlled by race control seems a small thing to ask for.

There's a reason the first lap of the first session of every weekend has the corner display a white flag. There's a reason you should be checking every corner station every lap.

[swiftdrivr]

There's a reason the first lap of the first session of every weekend has the corner display a white flag. There's a reason you should be checking every corner station every lap.

Not arguing the point, but I doubt I'm the only one who missed it, or has missed similar flags. No reason technology thats capable of increasing safety shouldn't be put to good use, if it can be made reasonably inexpensive [Ahh, there's the rub!].

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe the 20' section of wall near corner worker stations should be painted day-glo orange to provide more contrast than white does. Maybe the YELLOW flag should be modified to have a 1" wide band of day-glow orange perimeter/outline.

I don't want the flag station waving the first lap because waving communicates a different scenario than standing.

[alangbaker]

You know, I get that:

sometimes in the heat of battle it can be hard to see all the flags,

and that we could investigate a technological solution that would involve every single car being equipped with another $200-$500 worth of radio equipment and ever track spending another $5K-$10K the transmitting system.

Or...

We could just remember what our primary responsibility is out there and do it better.

Our primary responsibility is to race SAFELY. And one of the biggest parts of doing that is making sure we see every flag displayed at every station... ...every single time.

I was asked to join our club's driving instructors after only a couple of years driving, and I drill into every student they need to make checking each flag station a part of their "scan". Come around a corner: look for the next station. This is not optional. The only student I have ever failed at our school was one who couldn't see every flag once she was driving.

Yes: it is a shame that what was otherwise a great race for someone was ruined, but it was ruined by his own failure to see a flag and take appropriate action.

I'm not trying to pile on anyone here. What I'm trying to do is emphasize that this is not a case where we need to change the rules because something unfair happened. Something very fair happened.

What needs to change for it not to happen again is for everyone to remember that the flag rules are important, so don't miss the flags.

[swiftdrivr]

Maybe the 20' section of wall near corner worker stations should be painted day-glo orange to provide more contrast than white does. Maybe the YELLOW flag should be modified to have a 1" wide band of day-glow orange perimeter/outline.

I don't want the flag station waving the first lap because waving communicates a different scenario than standing.

Not a bad idea. I remember when I could tell how bad it was by the flagger's body language, but now, not so much. Not sure what changed, Still, I think lights would be easier to see, hung over the apex at the corner, or on my dash.

[alangbaker]

Not a bad idea. I remember when I could tell how bad it was by the flagger's body language, but now, not so much. Not sure what changed, Still, I think lights would be easier to see, hung over the apex at the corner, or on my dash.

Using light signals at marshal stations isn't a bad idea...

...but nothing changes that it is our job to see the signals however they are being displayed.

[swiftdrivr]

Tim is a really experienced racer, with a ton of wins. I can't believe he'd deliberately pass under a yellow. It seems he did not see it. If a racer with that kind of experience missed a flag, and Weitzenhoff says he's missed flags, and I've missed flags, it seems reasonable to explore ways of improving flag visibility / noticability, that's all I'm saying. $300 is about my fuel and food cost for a weekend. I'd have no problem paying that for the system I envision. "Remember to look" is great advice, but evidence suggest it isn't getting the job done

BTW: I've met Tim, like him, but didn't mean to suggest he was treated unfairly. Just trying to suggest ways to prevent missed flags in the future.

[DanW]

I think this could be taken a step further with cellular, wifi or telemetry to the car. Or turning a smartphone display to a warning light...

https://www.clearwaterlights.com/pages/race-lights

[Steve Davis]

I'll add to this thread in that, as many times as I've raced at Road America, I never knew there was a flag station where that flag was displayed until I went to the inside of T1 to watch that FF race last week. As I was looking around for the best spot to watch from, I noticed some movement through the trees and realized that there was a FLAG STATION there! The flaggers generally wear all WHITE... they hold a stationary WHITE FLAG during the out laps when we are supposed to make note of where all the stations are ... and they stand just behind a WHITE billboard and in front of a horrible mix of TREE COLORS (at least for this event). Yes, the YELLOW should have been visible, but in at least 10 trips to the track I have NEVER seen one presented there -- it is WELL off to the right from where normal eye-sight would be since we normally exit T1 to the outside and look DIRECTLY AHEAD towards T3 - a right hand turn where wheels are on the LEFT side of the track for the turn (there may well have BEEN one there, but I didn't see it).

Electronic gizmos not withstanding .. a proper flag station location (AND BACKGROUND) would be a HUGE STEP in making flag stations VISIBLE. It should be approx in the driver's 'tracking line' - and it should have a consistent background .. one not involving ANY of the flag colors. The exit of T1 is also almost always 'quite busy' and the driver NEEDS to have high level of concentration on that LEFT SIDE of the track. That station is not the only station I've even seen that is improperly placed, but it is one of the worst as far as background goes. The leaves were beautiful that week, but ... . A truly visible flag location would go a LONG WAY towards better safety.
Below is a shot from my incar video showing the flag station well off the track to the right .. when we are all "looking" ahead and to the left .. and ***this one is displaying DOUBLE YELLOW FLAGS*** (FV Pace lap).



and here is the same station from about the same place on the track with NO flag displayed...


and ..for comparison, this is a standing WHITE flag at the same station .. about the same distance away. Sorry, I could not find a displayed YELLOW in any of my videos.



This situation bring the 2015 Daytona Runoffs to mind. At the entry to the chicane, the workers were standing right beside a HIGH CONCRETE wall *PAINTED 'FLAG YELLOW'*. I went and complained to the Chief Steward, who took the safety steward with him and drove over for a look see.... they decided to DO NOTHING. I guess it was easier to just lay the blame on the drivers if any issues came up. Same thing when I see flaggers wearing YELLOW rain gear in the rain.... How can we be expected to separate a yellow flag from a yellow jacket while racing at speed? Fortunately, it doesn't happen often, but IMHO, it should done right or not at all.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe the 20' section of wall near corner worker stations should be painted day-glo orange to provide more contrast than white does. Maybe the YELLOW flag should be modified to have a 1" wide band of day-glow orange perimeter/outline.

The flaggers generally wear all WHITE... they hold a stationary WHITE FLAG during the out laps when we are supposed to make note of where all the stations are ... and they stand just behind a WHITE

Even when we know where the flag stations are, and can easily distinguish the flags due to contrasting colors, there's still those situations where another race car obscures your view of said station/workers. In my experience corner stations are generally well placed and directly where a racer is looking at some point approaching a corner. I've never driven RA, so I may be wrong, but looking at video, I can't imagine a time where that flag station is directly in a drivers' line of sight while driver is pointed in the correct direction.

[Steve Bamford]

Congrats to Simon for winning.

This thread certainly has gone off the rails. To help keep it off the rails, nothing needs to change. If you can’t see a standing yellow at the flag station before the incident & perhaps a waving yellow at the station where the incident is perhaps you should consider volley ball or another sport as your situational awareness is not where it needs to be if you are in a race car.

I can understand how the pass took place as an error but the result was what it should be. Leave it be.

[Daryl DeArman]

I can understand how the pass took place as an error but the result was what it should be. Leave it be.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't improve the process with minimal effort.

By the way, volleyball requires just as much, if not more situational awareness than auto racing

[swiftdrivr]

Congrats to Simon for winning.

This thread certainly has gone off the rails. To help keep it off the rails, nothing needs to change. If you can’t see a standing yellow at the flag station before the incident & perhaps a waving yellow at the station where the incident is perhaps you should consider volley ball or another sport as your situational awareness is not where it needs to be if you are in a race car.

I can understand how the pass took place as an error but the result was what it should be. Leave it be.

I don't see Wietzenhof as a volleyball player, but he seems qualified to race.

Nobody is suggesting the outcome was incorrect, we just drifted into suggestions to keep it from happening again

[alangbaker]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't improve the process with minimal effort.

By the way, volleyball requires just as much, if not more situational awareness than auto racing

I don't see Wietzenhof as a volleyball player, but he seems qualified to race.

Nobody is suggesting the outcome was incorrect, we just drifted into suggestions to keep it from happening again

If anyone wants to talk about a problem at a specific turn station, that's perfectly sensible.

It was only the idea that we had to change the whole system we use because one station isn't sufficiently prominent and a driver missed it. That seemed like overkill to me.

[swiftdrivr]

Last time we had this discussion, it was about the kink, and major injuries were involved. It seems reasonable to improve the whole system if we can

[Steve Bamford]

The car penalized passed 2 cars under yellow. He was focused on the car in front. According to Greg, Simon saw the yellow & backed out of his attempted pass. One saw it one didn’t. Simple as that. Flag station doesn’t need to be moved. Dash lights aren’t needed.

Daryl, as far as volley ball goes you don’t need a license to play & less likely to die from being hit by another vehicle as you are in racing. Perhaps you can choose the sport that doesn’t require the same situational awareness as racing, I’ll be ok with that.

[swiftdrivr]

The system is perfect. The guy who got struck after someone blew the yellow at the kink and ended up in the hospital surely agrees. Lets stop trying to improve things

[alangbaker]

Last time we had this discussion, it was about the kink, and major injuries were involved. It seems reasonable to improve the whole system if we can

The system is perfect. The guy who got struck after someone blew the yellow at the kink and ended up in the hospital surely agrees. Lets stop trying to improve things

Jim, I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to say the system is perfect.

What I am trying to say is that is not GENERALLY broken.

Where specific problems present themselves, let's look at specific solutions.

To me, it seems that Road America has at least two marshal's stations where they aren't very visible, and that could certainly be improved.

I don't know maybe I'm spoiled at Mission where all the stations are very visible. But then we're a track with K-rails (not quite the same; they're perpendicular on the track side) almost all the way around, and our stations are mostly positioned just behind the concrete, so the flags are almost waved over the racing surface. Road America has fairly wide grass runoff areas (something very much to be desired at a track, I know) so maybe there are greater challenges to make the signals visible to the drivers

But also to me:

The sky isn't falling.

I don't think we need to replace the existing system with one where everyone has to buy YA piece of equipment to compete, and such equipment raises its own challenges.

• The moment you rely on wireless systems to communicate this stuff to the driver, you're going to have to check that the equipment on each car is working at tech inspection before the race.
• And, of course, equipment does fail, so what happens when it fails during a race and now the system that the driver has come to rely on doesn't work?

Now you may say, "Well, but the flags will still be there for backup", but will anyone who has been given an in-car system...

..and gotten used to relying on it for this information even be looking for flags anymore.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's quite as simple a solution as you might have thought.

As was pointed out (and I saw it on the video as well) Sikes clearly backed out of it. He saw the flag... ...OK: he may have seen the incident and realized he SHOULD have seen the flag. But clearly, getting the call right wasn't impossible.

YMMV, but I don't see a need to overhaul the entire system based on any of this, and that includes the accident just after the Kink at the 50th.

Fix the problems that actually exist.

[Steve Bamford]

The system is perfect. The guy who got struck after someone blew the yellow at the kink and ended up in the hospital surely agrees. Lets stop trying to improve things

I did not state the system is perfect, I stated people need better situational awareness. You wish for an improvement of a light on the dash, but if someone can’t see multiple flags at flag stations that we are told about in pre race meetings who is to say they will see the light on their dash? Who is to trust a light on the dash will even work 100% of the time & it it doesn’t & the driver is relying on that dash light now they won’t be looking at the flag stations we are told to. This could lead to even worse results if the system you suggest fails & we all know that could happen.

Other drivers saw the flags. I’ve had similar issues at SCCA races with drivers miss flags when I didn’t. I had one FCC where I put my hand up & the cars passed me under FCC & blew past 2 more flag stations. I’m not sure a light on these individuals dash would have helped on the incident at hand.

No one wants anyone to get hurt on track, if you aren’t paying attention to the flag stations when on track then you aren’t doing as you were taught when you received your racing license.

[swiftdrivr]

I agree, the sky isn't falling, but it seems it is a real, and unfortunately not rare issue. Personally, I'd rather have lights hung over the apex as that's where my eyes are, [I think F1 does this] Also, I don't have to add something to my car, but getting tracks to spend money isn't likely to be easy. And certainly, systems can fail, just like the flag system does at times, or we wouldn't be discussing this. But, they check my rainlight every weekend, and my wife won't let me race in the rain. I'd rather they check a light that does something I need done. Just my opinion.

[billtebbutt]

Off topic is a specialty of mine......

Before i had any money to race, as a teenager i started as a marshall at Mosport. We were allowed to wear only white, and rain gear wasn't permitted unless it was a dark colour or no colour/clear. These are still pretty easy standards to enforce today, so flagger clothing should never, ever be a problem.

Mosport has every marshall station in the line of sight of a driver. And there are "advance" stations in addition to this where needed (see below).

Since those days, i can't tell you how many races I have run there as a driver (lets just say well over 50 race weekends), and it is pretty darn hard to miss a flag. Yet, i have still made the odd mistake, despite having eyes up (ie not at my dash) in the general direction of a flagging station. How? Because my mistakes were made while i was on the gearbox of the guy in front of me - my field of vision became a much narrower "tunnel" under those circumstances. And the LAST thing i would need at that point is a sudden flash of light on my dash to draw my focus even closer to the end of my nose.

I will admit to a near mistake at Road America at the 50th last year as well. Drafting on the LHS of the straight heading into 5 I pulled out and about halfway alongside the car in front of me and he raised his hand but did NOT lift immediately. Yep, flashing yellow light slightly ahead to my right, but i was so darn focused on making the pass i almost missed it. And i knew the light was there from previous sessions. Would I have seen it in the seconds to follow without the other driver's help - maybe.

In my view, his behavior was both sportsmanlike and safety-conscious (thank you, Mr. Nunes!).

WRT the Kink, I found myself looking right towards the apex a long, long distance before arrival at the apex. I can't recall what is behind the barriers on the RHS of the Kink, but that has always seemed an ideal location for an advance flagger if it was possible. I have certainly seen corners where there is an extra station before the corner that communicates via eyesight between marshalls at the primary corner station (Turn 3 at Mosport is an excellent example).

best,
BT

[John Nesbitt]

...

Electronic gizmos not withstanding .. a proper flag station location (AND BACKGROUND) would be a HUGE STEP in making flag stations VISIBLE. It should be approx in the driver's 'tracking line' - and it should have a consistent background .. one not involving ANY of the flag colors. The exit of T1 is also almost always 'quite busy' and the driver NEEDS to have high level of concentration on that LEFT SIDE of the track. That station is not the only station I've even seen that is improperly placed, but it is one of the worst as far as background goes. The leaves were beautiful that week, but ... . A truly visible flag location would go a LONG WAY towards better safety.
...

Even when we know where the flag stations are, and can easily distinguish the flags due to contrasting colors, there's still those situations where another race car obscures your view of said station/workers. In my experience corner stations are generally well placed and directly where a racer is looking at some point approaching a corner. I've never driven RA, so I may be wrong, but looking at video, I can't imagine a time where that flag station is directly in a drivers' line of sight while driver is pointed in the correct direction.

...

This thread certainly has gone off the rails. To help keep it off the rails, nothing needs to change. If you can’t see a standing yellow at the flag station before the incident & perhaps a waving yellow at the station where the incident is perhaps you should consider volley ball or another sport as your situational awareness is not where it needs to be if you are in a race car.

...

The system is perfect. The guy who got struck after someone blew the yellow at the kink and ended up in the hospital surely agrees. Lets stop trying to improve things

Jim, I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to say the system is perfect.

What I am trying to say is that is not GENERALLY broken.

Where specific problems present themselves, let's look at specific solutions.

To me, it seems that Road America has at least two marshal's stations where they aren't very visible, and that could certainly be improved.

...

I don't think we need to replace the existing system with one where everyone has to buy YA piece of equipment to compete, and such equipment raises its own challenges.

• The moment you rely on wireless systems to communicate this stuff to the driver, you're going to have to check that the equipment on each car is working at tech inspection before the race.
• And, of course, equipment does fail, so what happens when it fails during a race and now the system that the driver has come to rely on doesn't work?

Now you may say, "Well, but the flags will still be there for backup", but will anyone who has been given an in-car system...

..and gotten used to relying on it for this information even be looking for flags anymore.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's quite as simple a solution as you might have thought.

...

Who among us has never missed a flag? Usually, it is not a life-or-death thing, but sometimes it is. There is a problem with flag 'compliance' and my perception is that it is getting worse.

In fact, I believe that there are two separate problems, which play into each other.

First, flag visibility. Some flag stations are poorly-sited (for example, off to the left at a right-hand turn) where drivers are not looking. Some stations have a lot of background visual clutter. And, when folks are racing in a tight pack, they may not easily see the station.

Second, driver behavior. It is like the joke about changing a lightbulb - the driver has to want to see the flag. In my experience, the problem is getting worse. I am not sure what the reason is - reduced driver school requirements, ageing driver population, a don't care/no consequences attitude - maybe some combination of all of those. I do know that some fraction is within the individual driver's control.

A few years ago, at Summit Point, the situation got to the point where we instituted harsh penalties, well beyond the official guidelines, for flag offences. Guess what? Flag behavior magically improved.

I expect that technology will improve, and price will go down, and the flagger population will decrease to the point where some sort of electronic in-car system gets mandated. We shall hear the same complaints that we heard about head-and-neck restraints (and helmets, and fuel cells, and Nomex driver suits before). And the sky will not fall.

In the meantime, the suggestion for a standing Yellow at the previous flag station could go a long way toward mitigating the problem. I see implementation challenges, but it is do-able.

At the end of the day, though, the individual driver has to reserve enough bandwidth to see the flag, and then respond appropriately.

[Peter Olivola]

One of the so far not discussed issues are some of the changes pro racing has mandated for tracks they use. While not a factor in Road America's station 2, much of that track has been walled and catch fenced require flaggers to poke through small holes in the fencing.

We are still transitioning from flaggers being able to respond to disabled cars to being restricted from leaving their protected bunkers and waiting for ES to respond.

Track lights are coming. As we learn to use them effectively their positioning should allow flaggers to remain in protected positions while the lights can be placed in line of sight. Some tracks are already using lights for SCCA Road Racing (High Plains,) while retaining conventional flagging. Experience there suggests there are still things to be worked out. For instance, if the light operator is standing behind the lights an inadvertent wrong light showing may not be caught right away. The process also needs to resist the temptation to have one operator running multiple light locations as that means whatever the operator is looking at leaves the other location(s) with no sighting.

While track lights supplementing/replacing flags won't directly cost competitors money, there's no free lunch. There will be increases in track rental costs to cover the investment.

As a wise young man who runs this site has said, everyone wants things to improve. It's change they resist.

[Purple Frog]

I am not debating the penalty in this case.

Having been involved in one of the biggest FC pileups in history, with something like 8 cars waded up, maybe I have a bit of experience. I saw the flag as it was coming out, a bunch of guys behind me didn't. A yellow flag with a blazing Sun immediately behind it.

I have always supported a constant evolution in safety. Just maybe the cloth system that has been around for generations could use a wee bit of update.

I always thought the yellow flag should have a black border to make it more obvious. And to make easier to tell from a white flag.

When some of our most experienced drivers point out problems, maybe there should be some attention given. I thank Stephen Davis for his input. Many times in my career I have found his mentoring to be valuable.

OBTW, there are country club tracks in the U.S. that are already employing in-car warning lights. Just saying.

[swiftdrivr]

Who among us has never missed a flag? Usually, it is not a life-or-death thing, but sometimes it is. There is a problem with flag 'compliance' and my perception is that it is getting worse.

I expect that technology will improve, and price will go down, and the flagger population will decrease to the point where some sort of electronic in-car system gets mandated. We shall hear the same complaints that we heard about head-and-neck restraints (and helmets, and fuel cells, and Nomex driver suits before). And the sky will not fall.

.

I just watched some F1 clips, and they do have lights, but not nearly as many as I thought, from the clips I saw. [lots of flashing lights on the cars, which seem to be rain lights, but frequently flash under braking. Kind of weird, as they obviously aren't functioning as brake lights] They do have up to three flag stations in some corners, which certainly improves ability to see / notice the flag. However, in the rain, they are invisible. Lights might be seen, but not flags.

Yes, we will eventually need the system due to decreasing worker / flagger availability. And for the same reason, three stations waving flags per corner isn't happening in our world. Even if it did, it doesn't help in the rain [where we would likely have more incidents, and fewer workers, due to the weather] I would much prefer the lights to be on the track / over the track, as I generally have "eyes up," as we all do, but if track insurance providers, F1, or INDYCAR doesn't demand them, that's not happening, so I assume the system will be on the cars. And you are right, the sky will not fall. We all have oil pressure warning lights there already, what's the difference?

[E1pix]

Expanding on my initial post about on-dash lights, a few more thoughts.

For anyone disinterested in the discussion, a beauty of forums is you can always skip reading it. But I do strongly believe racing itself will come under continuing fire on many fronts, and safety is something we *can* mitigate — and only to the benefit of everyone involved.

Knowing we all often type in numbers incorrectly on our phones, I think entrusting various corner captains to manually enter a station or corner number would cause more problems than it’d solve. Don’t wanna send a blinking light (waving yellow) at 4 when you meant 3!!!

I initially pondered a signal traveling a specified distance, but of course distance is relative to speeds and potentially problematic at Station 4 compared to 5. I also wondered about “traffic counting lines” we see across highways, but a sideways car wouldn’t play well with that. Magnetic strips like we see at S/F for transponders?

I think a better solution is an automated system that triggers a solid or blinking light once cars cross a certain point — whether triggered by line, strip, or motion sensor. I also wondered about the yellow and red flags each sitting in their own “holsters,” where pulling the yellow auto-triggers the dash lights, problems there being trigger failure or misuse having dash lights still on when unintended.

In the end, the best solution seems to be a corner captain calling out “waving yellow at 4” and the system enabled by a single person in the tower doing only that job — or at least, someone well-qualified to do so.

Another thought is the paved corner exit strips, two-wide, and widening the track. Cars are now way out in left field exiting 1 and that just makes it harder to see that station. Not to mention the strips have changed the validity of comparing lap times over eras, they beat up cars, and look positively ghastly at such a beautiful circuit. I remember them first going in at 5, maybe in the early-‘70s, apparently to fill in ruts from dropping off the track — but all they do is move the ruts further out and ever-deeper from going faster.

[Steve Bamford]

A few years ago, at Summit Point, the situation got to the point where we instituted harsh penalties, well beyond the official guidelines, for flag offences. Guess what? Flag behavior magically improved.

Above is all that is needed. Just because even someone like Dave W or Tim had missed a yellow flag doesn’t mean it was a flag station locations fault or a light would have been seen when focused on the gear box ahead of them.

As for lights on the tracks, they are not as easy to see as you might think. I’ll take a waving yellow flag at a corner station over a light system anyway. It’s the drivers job to be aware of what is happening around him while on the track. Even F1 guys this season in practice sessions have missed yellows & been punished. Now they have a light system in car & on track so those thinking it will save them & others well...

For those of you wanting change, then go even further & put in an engine management system that reduces the HP on he car in caution zones.

John’s post above will resolve most of the issues.

[swiftdrivr]

I think a better solution is an automated system that triggers a solid or blinking light once cars cross a certain point — whether triggered by line, strip, or motion sensor. I also wondered about the yellow and red flags each sitting in their own “holsters,” where pulling the yellow auto-triggers the dash lights, problems there being trigger failure or misuse having dash lights still on when unintended.

In the end, the best solution seems to be a corner captain calling out “waving yellow at 4” and the system enabled by a single person in the tower doing only that job — or at least, someone well-qualified to do so.

Good ideas. I like the auto-triggering holster idea. Also, I was not aware that some US tracks are using lights. If it's out there, then I suspect that over time it will become more "expected" by major pro series, and by insurance carriers, and that may solve / remove this issue from our hands. That's a best-case scenario, but until it happens, I think we should be pro-active and work on it from our end. I agree we are likely to be pressed from many sides, and safety is one we would be most vulnerable on. It's also the one we have the most interest in mitigating, for several reasons.

[DanW]

When drivers don't slow for waving yellows, the driver in the car is very vulnerable. Even more vulnerable are the E-Crews with "Boots on the Ground". Few drivers in this thread even mention them at all. They have no protection between your car and their bodies. They lose every time.

"Hewland Hypnosis" is very real. Drivers nose to gearbox tend to get tunnel vision.
As we age, we slowly lose peripheral vision.

A little situational awareness please. We are better than this. Some of the driver excuses for PUY are absolutely absurd. I have sat in the Stewards room and just shaken my head.
Here's a good example of not minding a waving yellow at the Kink from the 50th last year. The fun starts at about 4:50. I also have the video from my car where I saw the waving yellow long before the kink and backed out. I had someone pass me in the grass at the apex.

Result:
Race red flagged.
Driver injured, had to be cut out of his car.
Two cars written off.
Five cars heavily damaged.
The exclamation at the end of the video says it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e99ZK2bcugs

Some of you will say that "Well it was a bunch of vintage racers." but most of the guys in this run group were SCCA drivers.

We can do better.

[problemchild]

Championship drivers have many qualities that make them champions. They must be very competitive, very aggressive, very talented, selfish, ruthless, often lack empathy, etc. While many of us possess some of those qualities, it is the blend of those qualities that make them champions. Those qualities also make them vulnerable to mistakes. I am fortunate to have a fine young driver in my car this year who has won many races this year. He also makes mistakes, including two that cost him races, and ruined other competitors races. He made others too, that he got away with due to his extreme talent. Any suggestion that a system is flawed because an experienced champion driver made a mistake within that system, is not realistic. In this case, two other drivers reacted to two flag stations.

While I believe in "progress", and agree that we need to move forward with safety items, the main reason that our flag system has lost some of its effectiveness over the last 80 years of service, is that drivers do not respect it. We all know that it tends to be the same group of drivers who are always missing yellow flags. I was at the first SCCA COTA event. 80% of the drivers had no problem seeing the flags and lights. But 20% were passing continually, and repeatedly under yellows. There was public outrage! IMO, it seemed to be a people problem rather than a process problem ..... but in todays world, it is much more fashionable to blame the system than accept responsibility for poor performance within that system.

Everybody makes mistakes, but If you are a driver who misses flag signals, then you need to put focus on your situational awareness. Period!

[swiftdrivr]

You are right. The system is perfect. It just fails frequently.

Considering the potentially expensive, painful or life threatening consequences of the system not getting the job done, for whatever reason, I'm a bit surprised at the resistance to improvement. I doubt many people mean to miss a flag, but we all do. It seems to me, anything that decreases my chance of missing a flag is a good thing. Saying "do better' is cheap and comfortable, and for a few weeks after a big injury, probably does some good, but in the long term, it doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

[DaveW]

...Just because even someone like Dave W or Tim had missed a yellow flag doesn’t mean it was a flag station locations fault or a light would have been seen when focused on the gear box ahead of them...

I agree - I can recall only 1 time I missed a yellow and thought it was not my fault. That was the 2005 Runoffs qualifying session at M-O with the 8 AM sun directly in our eyes as we approached turn 11 (RH turn over a rise entering thunder valley). That is the one Froggy has mentioned over the years where the flag station was impossible to see unless you rotated your head 90-degrees right when were almost past it. I did not pass anyone and was not involved in the wreck (many cars) only due to luck and having a car that could brake at the limit while cornering and not lose control.

[Purple Frog]

I still say that Yellow flag had a black border it would have been more obvious. A simple upgrade.

As an amateur photographer one learns quickly that the background behind what you are trying to photograph is very important to consider.

[reidhazelton]

This thread is the first sign of winter.

Flags work. You just need to look at them. It should be something you do going into any corner, every time. Look at the corner station, brake, steer, throttle, repeat. It should be a subconscious habit to look to the flag stations. In no way am I bagging on Tim, he's one of the most aware people I have raced with. He always knew exactly where I was even when he could not see me in his mirror. That said, in this scenario if someone misses a stationary flag on a short straight, a waving flag at the corner station, and the safety truck at the runoff area, then lights on a dash won't help. Maybe the overtaking car could not see the stationary flag as it might have been obscured but the cars being passed (unlikely), but certainly could have seen the corner station, and the safety truck.

Also, if you see a waving flag and can't see the cause of it, SLOW DOWN. This seems to be what happened to some cars in the 50th. In vintage, dial it back to 7/10ths and get your hand up so those behind you that might have a harder time seeing the flag get the hint. That said, even bump drafting in an FF you can still see the flags if you try. What is obscured, are brake marker signs on occasion. Those are at ground level. Workers are standing, waving a flag so they are at least 3-4 feet above driver's head. It's hard to obscure that. The "failure in the system" is when the driver does not make enough effort to look at the flag. Just because one person on one occasion, out of hundreds of drivers doing hundreds of laps misses a flag does not mean the system is broken. This would be a valid argument if the flag was missed routinely.

Again, I am not bagging on anyone, I'm simply saying as a driver you must look at the flags, every time. It should be part of what you scan for (flags, debris, lap traffic, other cars in other classes) as you are looking well ahead of where you are. They are just as important as water temp, oil pressure, and rpm. There is no excuse to not see a flag. I've driven big fender cars, and small FFs and I can't recall a time I could not see a flag at some point prior to turn in.

[swiftdrivr]

someone sent me a PM, suggesting lights on the flag. With the LEDs available now, that should be a simple enhancement that might help. If Dollar-Store Halloween Rah-Rahs can have them, they can't be that hard to construct.

[John LaRue]

Suggestion - corner workers at RA should leave their day-glo deer hunting hats and jackets at home.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe the overtaking car could not see the stationary flag as it might have been obscured but the cars being passed (unlikely), but certainly could have seen the corner station, and the safety truck.

I believe it's more probable than unlikely. When you're the meat in a 4-car sandwich you can't see anything but bread.

I'm not suggesting the penalty wasn't warranted.

I'm not suggesting that Simon's win IN ANY WAY requires some kind of asterisk, or "yeah, but."

I AM suggesting that we need to look at some method of making flags more apparent, while at the same time enforcing harsh penalties for missing them so that they are observed/respected.

I believe he had to have seen the T3 station and safety truck with the waiving yellow as soon as he made the pass. At that point (being unaware that T2 station was under yellow) in his mind he is free to race until perpendicular to the T3 station so it's not like he purposely ignored the T3 flag.

There is no excuse to not see a flag. I've driven big fender cars, and small FFs and I can't recall a time I could not see a flag at some point prior to turn in.

The point is not whether or not you can see it "At some point" prior to turn in, the point is that you can't see it the entire time and that its status is free to change at any instant. I can recall more than one occasion where I could not see a flag station in my D13 and an EProd RX7. The proximity of the cars around you and their size has everything to do with what you can/can't see no matter how much attention you are paying.