FC tire survey e-mail

[BeerBudgetRacing]

How likely is it that the chosen spec tire (if it works out that way) will be the same tire that Greg or Paul have and/or accustomed to racing?

If the rumors are true, probably:

Greg - 50%
Paul - 0% (Pirelli, Avon bias)

[rallaer]

How likely is it that the chosen spec tire (if it works out that way) will be the same tire that Greg or Paul have and/or accustomed to racing?

Hahahaha. VERY. Put all your money on purple. And I mean - ALL of your money...

[Daryl DeArman]

Hahahaha. VERY. Put all your money on purple. And I mean - ALL of your money...

I would except there's some possibility that the purple one might make a FC sized bias in the R45 compound or even R60 compound in order to satisfy SCCA survey result concerns while requiring fewer compound formulations in their road racing inventory.

*** I have zero idea what the "results" of the survey were or what Hoosier has up their sleeves.

[rallaer]

I would except there's some possibility that the purple one might make a FC sized bias in the R45 compound or even R60 compound in order to satisfy SCCA survey result concerns while requiring fewer compound formulations in their road racing inventory.

*** I have zero idea what the "results" of the survey were or what Hoosier has up their sleeves.

The point is that it will land on purple - whatever the compound or bias or radial.

[EricP]

What are the pros/cons of American Racers?

[Daryl DeArman]

What are the pros/cons of American Racers?

Some people have complained about inconsistency in sizes, I never had such an issue, but then they also lasted long enough that I didn't purchase enough sets to represent a good sample size. I never had two tires of the same marked size measure more than 1/4" difference in rollout at the same pressure.

They are inexpensive.

They last many more competitive heat cycles.

They don't tend to hold air pressure as long as some other brands. However, I never lost any measurable amount between leaving paddock and the 5 minute board, so if I lose less than 1/4 psi in 30 minutes what's the real harm?

They don't have as much grip as Hoosiers/Avons.

[EricP]

They are inexpensive.

They last many more competitive heat cycles.

They don't have as much grip as Hoosiers/Avons.

Cheaper and longer sounds nice but I see, less grip, why not as many use them...

[racerdad2]

Apparently, F1, IndyCar, NASCAR, Local Short Tracks, ETC. use Spec Tires ? Seems a longer lasting, less expensive tire would work for everyone ? And.... Spec Racing is rather common around this planet.... Spec Engine. Spec Chassis. Spec Tire. Slight variations in F4, F3, F2, IMSA (BOP).... Back in the day, my local kart track had a very soft, very sticky, very short lived spec tire. Many asked for a harder compound, long life tire be used. The track liked selling a lot more of the short life tires. New tires needed each race day to run out front. We're amateurs... Some wealthy ( Like Trans Am & IMSA) Some, have just enough gas money to make it back home after a race weekend

[Steve Demeter]

Less grip is not at all inviting to this guy

I would like to see bias R-35's. I have consistently gotten 9 good cycles out of a set, with the fastest times coming in cycles 6 thru 8.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What are the pros/cons of American Racers?

So I bought a set from Primus when Brad was setting up the spec tire for the Southern Series I believe.
They were marked F1000.

My experience wasn't great. The rears were done before the weekend was over. I'm not hard on tires.
It was a really hot weekend for Laguna (112 and no air movement) which MAY have been a contributing factor.
BUT, out west we mostly have desert tracks and 110+ is not uncommon.

All that said, if you look at the tire options on the Primus website, the F1000 tires are described as SOFT, while the F2000 tires are HARD. I believe there were 2 maybe 3 iterations of the compound. I never tried the hard one.

[Daryl DeArman]

All that said, if you look at the tire options on the Primus website, the F1000 tires are described as SOFT, while the F2000 tires are HARD. I believe there were 2 maybe 3 iterations of the compound. I never tried the hard one.

In fairness it's like someone asking about the grip and life expectancy of the "Hoosier". One guy's thinking of the R25B another the R60.

The American Racers I have experience on are their 132 and 133 compounds.

[Rick Kirchner]

Wonder what these guys could do?

https://philstireservice.com/shop/nankang-ar-1/

oh, I forgot, not purple.

Still nobody even giving me lip service on my questions.....

[EYERACE]

American Racers:
Pro - Saved about $400 vs. Hoosier.
- Maybe fall off about 1+ second after the first one or two cycles but after that steady for about as many sessions as can be
run before cords show
- In this Southern heat they're fairly consistent rather than very greasy late in the race
- By gentleman's agreement virtually everybody was running them down South
- Trackside support when running the Series the tire is sponsoring
- Did not seem to 'walk' on the rim.
- A bias tire.....at least some might think that's a Pro.

Con - Is this a con ??? > reduced tire cold pressures about 2 to 3 pounds from Hoosier
- Is this a con ??? Had to run almost no negative camber up front, none in back
- When at local tire shop getting mounted, had to run the fronts up to maybe 80+ pounds to get bead to seat.
- If I'm remembering it > the fronts weighed about 2 pounds more than Hoosiers, backs were equal weight
- Only one or two tires out of about 5 or 6 sets, had to keep track of very slow leak after mounted. If ignored forever all tires
will lose air of course.....but his was either one day to the next or morning to evening same day.
- Just as Brad said, about 2 seconds a lap slower.........so that's a con if the driver is still one of those "I gotta go faster &
faster all the time" kind of guys.........but it's not a con when everybody's running 'em.
- No trackside support if not running sponsored Series
- Rears only made as 8" wide versus Hoosier 8" or 9"

It's been a long time since I ran some Avon radials that were a Series tire about 10 years ago. I bought them the following year when those Drivers couldn't even use them in testing or practice session because a different tire brand was used, so I can't say much comparing Avons to ARs.

I would gladly support Brad and the Southern FC Series by running ARs in the future.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

American Racers:

I would gladly support Brad and the Southern FC Series by running ARs in the future.

Are these the F2000 marked hard compounds?
I do think setup info early on was not good.

[EricP]

1. #29899 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Spec Tire Implementation
The Club Racing Board recommends that the club move forward with the work necessary to implement a spec tire in Formula Continental for use in all U.S. Majors Tour and Hoosier Super Tour events and the National Championship Runoffs. Please see letter # 29339 in October Fastrack.
In GCR, section 9.1.1.B.10. add as follows:
"g. FC shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears):
Dry:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 60A compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 60A compound – Part Number TBD
Wet:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 W3 compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 W3 compound – Part Number TBD
h. FC shall be permitted a maximum of four (4) dry tires and four (4) wet tires for all Regional, Major and Super Tour events; eight (8) dry tires and eight (8) wet tires for Runoffs. This rule shall be effective beginning with the first (1??) qualifying session of the event. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that their tires are declared, marked and logged by Tech in advance of their on-track session(s).
1. Use of an undeclared tire shall automatically result in all times being disallowed in that session or finishing position in that race.
2. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session or a race the competitor may replace the damaged tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief Steward without loss of time or finishing position. Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward, however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor shall start at the back of the grid. "
You can download your own copy of the 2020 December CRB Minutes https://www.scca.com/.../52873-december-2020.../download

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward, however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor shall start at the back of the grid.

Can someone tell me the logic of that? Frequently, when a tire is damaged it's because you went off. Not going to be your best time anyway. So why should you go to the back of the grid?

Isn't the most common cause of tire damage contact by a competitor? Again, back of grid?

I guess my question is why is it being made complicated.

It's simple:
You can show to practice on any tire.
You show to Qualifying and you can have marked or unmarked tires - they get marked.
You show to the race on marked tires. Who cares if they are previously marked.

Simple. Reduced for work for stewards and grid workers.

[mark defer]

Can someone tell me the logic of that? Frequently, when a tire is damaged it's because you went off. Not going to be your best time anyway. So why should you go to the back of the grid?

Isn't the most common cause of tire damage contact by a competitor? Again, back of grid?

I guess my question is why is it being made complicated.

It's simple:
You can show to practice on any tire.
You show to Qualifying and you can have marked or unmarked tires - they get marked.
You show to the race on marked tires. Who cares if they are previously marked.

Simple. Reduced for work for stewards and grid workers.

The most common tire damage I have seen is flat spotting.
So you could have a guy set a great qualifying lap and then spin badly [accidentally of course] flat spotting a whole set. "Mr official, darnnit, all my tires are damaged, I need a whole new set". There has to be a penalty for that.

[Daryl DeArman]

Yep claiming a couple tires are damaged and you need to replace should result in penalties. If not, you might as well throw the mandate for 4 tires per event out the window.

[Steve Demeter]

The "pre amble" says Nationals, Majors and the Runoffs are what the rule applies to.

Then in the Body it talks about limiting the number of tires for all the above AND regionals. What is that supposed ot mean? Hopefully someone can exp[lain that.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The most common tire damage I have seen is flat spotting.
So you could have a guy set a great qualifying lap and then spin badly [accidentally of course] flat spotting a whole set. "Mr official, darnnit, all my tires are damaged, I need a whole new set". There has to be a penalty for that.

Yes, but the rule is replacement with USED (aka previously marked) - not a new set.
If they don't have used replacements, they can be marked with a grid adjustment.
Then it all starts to defeat the idea of getting out with a new set at the pointy end.
The tires they just ruined had to be better than anything they have marked in the trailer.

So, give the the scenario where someone has a set of used tires that will be an outright advantage.

The only one I can think of is someone rolls out in qualifying and rolls straight back into the pits.
But then they are at the back anyway.
Or they get a buddy to do that, the buddy withdraws, and then take those tires for the second race.
That takes collusion, it's cheating, and heck that'll never happen in racing, right?

Solution. Mark includes the car number.

Just trying to reduce the work for the grid workers, etc.

[Peter Olivola]

The "pre amble" says Nationals, Majors and the Runoffs are what the rule applies to.

Then in the Body it talks about limiting the number of tires for all the above AND regionals. What is that supposed ot mean? Hopefully someone can exp[lain that.

It means the spec tire doesn't apply to regionals but the number used for the weekend does. Regionals can use any tire but same rules about marking and replacement.

[Daryl DeArman]

The tires they just ruined had to be better than anything they have marked in the trailer.

Not necessarily. I can have a set of very lightly used tires, say one lap scrub in.

The rule doesn't say used and previously marked, it says "USED". No requirement that the tire be previously marked. When I go to the Chief Steward to ask for approval of replacement tire(s) that previously used tire is now declared and marked.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Not necessarily. I can have a set of very lightly used tires, say one lap scrub in.

The rule doesn't say used and previously marked, it says "USED". No requirement that the tire be previously marked. When I go to the Chief Steward to ask for approval of replacement tire(s) that previously used tire is now declared and marked.

You are correct. But we should change / simplify this. Having never used spec tires this looks like a lot of hassle for the Steward and staff.

[Bob Wright]

Marking spec tires is not new to SCCA club racing-it dates back to at least the early '80s in FF and other classes. FRP has been doing it for 16 years.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Marking spec tires is not new to SCCA club racing-it dates back to at least the early '80s in FF and other classes. FRP has been doing it for 16 years.

Never thought it was new. But since it would affect me, I thought the process seemed a bit obtuse.
Its rife with too much obligation and discretion.
But, like my mother-in-law, we don't like to change our ways do we....

So Bob, you should know, is the compound quoted the same as the FRP tire? Doesn't say.
https://www.hoosiertire.com/contingency_rates/f2000/
https://shop.hoosiertire.com/index.p...-0r13-f2k.html

[2BWise]

Marking spec tires is not new to SCCA club racing-it dates back to at least the early '80s in FF and other classes. FRP has been doing it for 16 years.

Will this tire become the FRP spec tire as well, for commonality?

[EricP]

Will this tire become the FRP spec tire as well, for commonality?

THAT would be nice.

[Bob Wright]

Umm. For a number of years we had the R60A compound in FRP. In 2020 we changed to the R35B, which is clearly faster, a bit stickier, and easier to drive. My personal opinion (and that of a number of FRP competitors) is the R60A is a better choice for a number of reasons, but a little harder to go fast with. It certainly lasts longer.

I am very much in the radial camp; the tire is more consistent, lasts longer and doesn't require the continual set-up work of the bias. From personal experience, the radial does not need massive camber that might preclude some of the older cars. It does require some learning how to drive on it (isn't that part of the fun?). FRP competitors have 16 years of experience how to set up and drive on the radial- its not rocket science and not voodoo.

[Rick Kirchner]

FRP competitors have 16 years of experience how to set up and drive on the radial- its not rocket science and not voodoo.

Soooo. how about posting some of that experience and help those of us that don't run radials with the learning curve? - like a section on 90-96 cars and one on 97-08 cars?

[DaveW]

1. #29899 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Spec Tire Implementation
The Club Racing Board recommends that the club move forward with the work necessary to implement a spec tire in Formula Continental for use in all U.S. Majors Tour and Hoosier Super Tour events and the National Championship Runoffs. Please see letter # 29339 in October Fastrack.
In GCR, section 9.1.1.B.10. add as follows:
"g. FC shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears):
Dry:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 60A compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 60A compound – Part Number TBD
Wet:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 W3 compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 W3 compound – Part Number TBD
h. FC shall be permitted a maximum of four (4) dry tires and four (4) wet tires for all Regional, Major and Super Tour events; eight (8) dry tires and eight (8) wet tires for Runoffs. This rule shall be effective beginning with the first (1??) qualifying session of the event. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that their tires are declared, marked and logged by Tech in advance of their on-track session(s).
1. Use of an undeclared tire shall automatically result in all times being disallowed in that session or finishing position in that race.
2. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session or a race the competitor may replace the damaged tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief Steward without loss of time or finishing position. Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward, however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor shall start at the back of the grid. "
You can download your own copy of the 2020 December CRB Minutes https://www.scca.com/.../52873-december-2020.../download

Note that this makes no reference to either radial or bias. But for the reasons Bob stated in post #148, I hope it will be radials.

[problemchild]

Great news!

I don't really care if bias or radial, or the compound. It will be the same for everybody.

Hoosier knows tires, and is the most reactive, adaptive, and flexible of any racing tire company providing tires to Club racers. That is why they have the lion's share of club racer business. They will take good care of us. If some other company can match their level of service, performance, and price, I am good with that too.

I hope SCCA can get this sorted ASAP, and the class can reap the benefits ASAP. Get r done!

[EYERACE]

Yo Beer,
Even though it's a little more of a moot point for what else has popped up here...........to answer your question about the ARs....

An AR set from about 1+ year ago as stickers that are laying around that haven't been used due partly to CoVid and partly to not having an engine for an extended period of time......fronts are marked F1000, rears marked FC. A set from about 2+ years ago that I ran over this just past October Sebring Short marked FC front and rear.

I don't find any tire to the dimensions noted here by EricP when I look for 'em at the Hoosier website.

Probably not going to have much to add here later but I shall make a point of discussing the FC spec tire thing with the Hoosier truck when I'm at Sebring over Turkey Trot and relate what I'm told - doubt they'll have such a tire to throw on the truck if I call Hoosier on Monday.

I wonder just how much of a curve ball this throws at Brad/Primus and his various Series.

By the way..........it's fun to already see how some are discussing how to "cheat legal" this Spec Tire rule. May I offer the suggestion of get a set well ahead of time and then let 'em sit bathed in tire softener for a week?

As to marking......Will the spec tires have bar codes that Tech can use a scanner on?......or will it be a colored spray paint dot?

[Steve Demeter]

It means the spec tire doesn't apply to regionals but the number used for the weekend does. Regionals can use any tire but same rules about marking and replacement.

So if I keep one "not so good set" for practice/qualifying and a "good set" for the actual race so as to maximize my available heat cycles, this new rule that is supposed to save money actually precludes using an old used set then changing to a new used set for the race. Can you say screen door in the space shuttle.

[Lotus7]

Perhaps I missed it, but does the rule say you MAY use 4 new tires for the event, or MUST use 4 new tires? (to ensure the tire guy makes money, like they do in F4 series).
If it's "may use", then I'd interpret that as you can use any 4 previously marked tires from past events in the current event.

[Peter Olivola]

Perhaps I missed it, but does the rule say you MAY use 4 new tires for the event, or MUST use 4 new tires? (to ensure the tire guy makes money, like they do in F4 series).
If it's "may use", then I'd interpret that as you can use any 4 previously marked tires from past events in the current event.

I don't think it's going to work that way. Any tire that meets the spec but marked uniquely at each event.

[EYERACE]

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

[Peter Olivola]

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

Paging Purple Frog. Paging Purple Frog. Would you please explain how tire marking works.

[Purple Frog]

I'm too busy sorting my sock drawer tonight.

[DaveW]

So maybe.....just maybe.....a set marked with say a blue dot one weekend gets used a second weekend and at that second event the tire with a blue dot also now gets marked with a white dot because a white dot is what's being used at that second event ???

FRP has used a unique mark (color and shape) for each weekend. I'm sure they get re-used, but not in sequential weekends.

[problemchild]

Spec/control tires have been used at different levels for as many as 5 decades. I am sure that even SCCA will be able to institute a system to regulate tire use. Competitors need not worry.

The low budget guys that currently have to manipulate the process by running multiple sets of crap tires to get through a weekend, are the ones that will benefit most by use of spec tires. While they still may want to put on their "spare" set for practice, they can put on a single decent used set and get through the weekend. The average "quality" of their tires will be more competitive more often. There is nothing to be afraid of. This process is not new, and is a proven tool to reduce costs through the entire field.

I believe that the tire count is unnecessary, except for perhaps the Runoffs, but will not have much effect on the spec tire process either way. As I have reported elsewhere, at the Runoffs, we qualified on pole in FF with 5 session old tires. I believe the FF tire is the same 60 compound being considered for the FC tire (and is the 'Go to" compound used by Hoosier for most of their spec tire programs). My driver and I chose not to buy into the psychology of sticker tires, but believe in the consistency of the spec tires provided. I believe the FC community will develop a similar level of comfort if they can approach it with an open mind, or better yet, positive energy. We are just applying a process developed over 5 decades.