FC tire survey e-mail

[Daryl DeArman]

When they run the data through the algorithm and don't like the output, they'll just tweak the algorithm.

I raced in 2 spec tire series in my life. In both instances (different types of racing, different sanctioning bodies and different tire manufacturers) The interested manufacturers had to agree to a set price for the tire for the season and contribute to prize fund. Most lucrative package won. Racers' input was limited to which class we choose to sign up for. In the first instance the tires had very little drop off in performance and most people raced an entire 12 race season on 2 or 3 sets instead of the previous 12-18 sets. In the second instance the tires were just available very cheaply and the prize fund was relatively large. We were allowed only 2 new tires an event. We ran 24 races between Easter and Thanksgiving, ended up buying 12 sets of tires that season, but an entire set in 1993 dollars was $240. A top 10 finish paid your tire bill and entry fee for the event. That works when you have 40 cars+ at each race.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Historically, when going to a spec tire, is there a grace period for "non-spec" tires?

I do need a new set but I'm kinda waiting on this decision...

We have a majors race the 2nd or 3rd week of January and it would be nice to get some testing done before then.

[tahoe z]

That is a great question. Given the fact SCCA has made this decision for numerous other classes and has not made any process or formula for making said decisions public, I would venture to say there isn't one. It's not a knock on anyone, just the most likely reality.

But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. I would highly recommend developing a process/formula and submitting it to those in charge. Given your experience you are probably more qualified than most!

Waiting for the SCCA or anyone else to design and implement one is a lost cause. If we want changes to be made and what is best for the class we have to do it ourselves.

And if the intent was just to point out the lack of a process, then that's a whole other discussion.

I do not want a spec tire scca gets the kik back but we need to know so we can set up carats. test First race for me is January. I k ow the deal is done

[kea]

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

[E1pix]

So why not announce it?

Can’t speak for Hoosier, but do know in many areas of PR now there’s little point in competing with the endless distractions until November 4.

[Daryl DeArman]

Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

They just have their fingers crossed that the racers want what the SCCA is getting ready to serve.

[RSS]

Not surprised. So why not announce it?

The delay only creates the appearance that they are delaying to create the appearance there was actual research/bidding done.

They had planned to do it in the winners circle after the FC runoffs race but then well Avon's happened!

[BrianT1]

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

[CScharnow]

My sister-in-law's dentist told me it's going to be an open tire war between Bridgestone and Michelin.

I'm sure they're just keeping it quiet because of the fact that Bridgestone and Michelin stand to make billions on the contract and they don't want to let us minions in on the facts.

Besides, anyone who has ever worked on a project with more than 10+ people know how easy it is to perfectly coordinate - in secret! - this nefarious goal to screw us.

[EricP]

There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

...will be interesting to see how these posts age... (I truly have no opinion... am just very curious).

[BeerBudgetRacing]

There has been no agreement on a spec tire at this point. It is still being discussed as a possibility for the class.

That's fine. I go back to my question of timing and grandfathering of non-spec tires.

Just waiting - hopefully not too much longer.

[John LaRue]

I just received a call from a customer, who's brother raced at the just-past Run-offs (different class but owns a FC) and said the Hoosier people told him the Spec tire for FC was a done deal.

The issue is in discussion at all levels; a decision has not been made. As for a time line, that will likely depend upon the form of the proposals. The FSRAC, FC Adhoc, CRB and Staff are all mindful of the timing and implementation of these types of decisions on the part of the competitors and suppliers alike.

[Rick Kirchner]

And to my question?

[EYERACE]

So let's see here.......

SCCA takes a long time to announce that a Hoosier radial is now the FC spec tire - effective immediately. What the heck, Hoosier got radials for FF....so why not FC ??

Every FC in the world, in an effort to prep for the January Majors in Florida, shows up at Sebring Turkey Trot test day to see how 3 1/2 degrees of negative camber will work on the fronts along with all the other suspension changes

and the Hoosier truck shows up with maybe enough for everybody.

....and we all throw away all our other tires, especially the Regional racers who made plans months ago for next year on the tires they already had and don't wish to be DQ'd for running something other than the spec tire and will never see a dime from the promised? tire fund

If I sound bitter - remember it's not that - it's that I sound manipulated by others...and I always like to be manipulated by others

[CScharnow]

By its nature, the SCCA process is slow and inefficient with inherent checks and balances. That can be a good thing and it can also be frustrating as hell sometimes. But it is intentionally designed that way, for better or worse.

And contrary to popular opinion, there is not a secret society conspiring to drive us all from the class and increase costs. There is no perfect solution, but from what I understand we are working to be as transparent as possible. Give it time, you may just end up pleasantly surprised.

Patience, grasshoppers.

[Purple Frog]

I'd be interested to see how many FC racers have a stock of new tires in their shop at this point in the season... especially months after it was obvious there was a possible change in the air.

Just saying.

[EYERACE]

Good point your Purpleness.

Addressed to all: Next point........if part of the excuse for forcing a spec tire on the class is "it will help car count"....well what if in about 2 years down the road car counts are about the same as they've been for the past 2 years? is someone going to admit that the 'experiment' didn't work and do away with the spec tire.....let's all hold our breath huh?

[Daryl DeArman]

Addressed to all: Next point........if part of the excuse for forcing a spec tire on the class is "it will help car count"....well what if in about 2 years down the road car counts are about the same as they've been for the past 2 years? is someone going to admit that the 'experiment' didn't work and do away with the spec tire...

IF the "experiment" doesn't change car counts, but it's now cheaper for all because the tire is cheaper and/or has a longer competitive life then why would you want to get rid of it? Additionally, nobody has to worry about showing up at a race with the wrong tire selection.

Eliminating such a hugely performance related variable, and highly consumable one at that, is rarely a bad thing for the racing.

[EYERACE]

You care to buy cheaper tires............I won't stop you. If someone cares to buy other tires....but they're stopped when the 'experiment' hadn't worked a couple years down the road with one part of the experimental result being car count.

If it's cost, then the obvious vote is for American Racers......which anyone could have run in the past at anytime.

We're getting too hypothetical..........

[hdsporty1988]

I'd be interested to see how many FC racers have a stock of new tires in their shop at this point in the season... especially months after it was obvious there was a possible change in the air.

Just saying.

If anyone does, I would be interested in buying a few sets of Hoosier R35s. Since I run with the Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs, they will still work for me.

[rallaer]

I'd be interested to see how many FC racers have a stock of new tires in their shop at this point in the season... especially months after it was obvious there was a possible change in the air.

Just saying.

Why do they have to be new tires? I have a bunch of takeoff tires that have various numbers of heat cycles. But I use them all year. I just used tires from Sebring in January to test at the Runoffs a couple weeks ago. Not sure why they have to be “new” to have value. My tires have value for me until they are gone - Which can be many, many events.

And, by the way, anyone that thinks this process doesn’t have behind the scenes influences and motives is naive. Impossible.


Rob Allaer
FC #52

[rallaer]

IF the "experiment" doesn't change car counts, but it's now cheaper for all because the tire is cheaper and/or has a longer competitive life then why would you want to get rid of it? Additionally, nobody has to worry about showing up at a race with the wrong tire selection.

Eliminating such a hugely performance related variable, and highly consumable one at that, is rarely a bad thing for the racing.

I agree with the consumable part of your point, however, what is the difference if you show up on the “wrong” tire or I show up with the “wrong” gears, wings, brake pads, shocks or ride height? It’s part of the formula that makes the car fast. Thus the name of the class.

You’re welcome to spend money on parts of the car, just not tires? That makes no sense. Unless you’re in a spec class.

It’s a mute point, however, because if we do go to a spec tire, it will never come back. That is the only thing you can count on. No chance.

Rob Allaer
FC #52

[Daryl DeArman]

You care to buy cheaper tires............I won't stop you. If someone cares to buy other tires....but they're stopped when the 'experiment' hadn't worked a couple years down the road with one part of the experimental result being car count.

If it's cost, then the obvious vote is for American Racers......which anyone could have run in the past at anytime.

We're getting too hypothetical..........

It would seem you're confusing cost with value.

I don't care if the tires are $5K a set if the magical set was just as fast in HC1 as it was in HC50.

As far as the BS about running A/R's at anytime, they couldn't do that without giving up a huge performance advantage, so who's doing that?

Car counts are increased when people get more perceived value from their racing dollar.

[Daryl DeArman]

I agree with the consumable part of your point, however, what is the difference if you show up on the “wrong” tire or I show up with the “wrong” gears, wings, brake pads, shocks or ride height? It’s part of the formula that makes the car fast. Thus the name of the class.

The net effect is the same.

There are variables that can be eliminated to increase the quality of the racing yet still give enough options in the formula to separate the wheat from the chaff. It doesn't go from formula to a spec class by specifying a tire anymore than it was spec when everybody ran a Pinto.

You’re welcome to spend money on parts of the car, just not tires? That makes no sense.

You're welcome to spend money on any and all the bits and pieces you want. A spec tire wouldn't change that.

[Steve Demeter]

I just hope that it will not apply to regional racing, if such a thing is possible. That would allow us REally LOW Bucks types to have their stash of old tires grandfathered in for a while.

Or maybe FS beckons???

[jpietz]

[QUOTE=Rick Kirchner;611613]Got a tire survey link from roadracing@SCCA.com. Nice to be included even though I let my membership lapse and I'm not currently racing with the SCCA.


1. Do you support the idea of SCCA adopting a spec tire for FC?

Arguably, should have been one of the last questions.

No
2. If SCCA adopts a tire rule for FC, is it important to consider "at track" service in making a determination as to which tires(s) to utilize?

Is this an SCCA thing? With the exception of the excellent Buttonwillow tire shop NONE of the Southwest tracks have a tire shop on-site (with the possible exception of Willow Springs, but that guy is a freaking joke). Fontana, Pahrump, Vegas, Chuckwalla - none of them. I don't think there's one at Firebird or Wilcox either. Pretty much learned to be prepared and self-sufficient on that one. Hoosier shows up for SVRA - but that's another one of their side deals.
3. Do you support the idea of utilizing a radial type tire in FC?
Absolutely not.

4. Do you favor a contingency program or applying contingency funds to reduction of the cost of tires?

An interesting question, but outside of a half-dozen really fast guys, who gives a crap? I suppose tat if it increases the number of take offs and there's a "trickle down" and the performance doesn't fall off a cliff after a few cycles, well then I guess it might matter to everybody else, but really, what's the point of a contingency program when there's a spec tire involved?

IN FM Goodyear provides a pair of tires by drawing each weekend. If you win your name comes out of the hat until everybody wins
over the course of the season. They also provide contingency tires to winners. Not being one of the fast guys I like price reduction
or just some free tires by lottery.

5. Do you support limiting the number of tires that can be used during a race weekend (qualifying and races)?
Again FM does one set per weekend. This in my opinion is all we need do. No need to spec the tire. Just limit the number you can use.

6. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for a race weekend?
On set per weekend starting at qualifying not practice.

7. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for Runoffs?
Depends on how they set up the runoffs. Suggest two sets with current runoffs schedule.

8. Rank the following by importance:



1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Cost
6





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Durability (overall mileage)

5



1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Ultimate Performance
1





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Consistency (fall off between heat cycles)
2





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Drivability
3





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Contingency Program
4





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
USA Manufacturer
No matter but we should look at Goodyear. FM has been very happy with the tire and contingency program they have with Goodyear.







9. Should the rule specify the size of the tire to be used for front and rear (to prevent use of front tires on the rear)
No

10. What do you currently pay for a new set of tires in FC?
$1300 mounte

Seems to me that this question should have been #2.
11. Does the price listed above include mounting and balancing?
yes

12. Does the price listed above include shipping or delivery?
yes

13. How many new sets of tires do you purchase (on average) during a race season?
one set per weekend

And this one should have been #3. Should have also asked how many events and test days you run - combined with #2 and #3 tells you a lot about the market.

Would have been nice to see the questions about cost, durability, and consistency right up front.

Thanks for posting

[problemchild]

Car counts are increased when people get more perceived value from their racing dollar.

Of course! That is why every serious race series in the world has restrictions on consumables, specifically fuel and tires. The more wealthy teams agree to these restrictions so that the less wealthy teams keep showing up. If they don't, it is just a few selfish wealthy teams racing for the lead, then everybody else stops showing up. Sound familiar? The more wealthy teams will always have an advantage, but good cost-savings rules put pressure on those wealthy teams to perform well, or they will get beat. Classic examples are the 2020 Ferrari F1 team and the 2019 McLaren Indy effort. I don't see entry fees being reduced anytime soon, nor travel costs, so tires are the only real consumable that can be restricted with meaningful effect.

[EricP]

How does one set per weekend work? What happens when I f-up first session and terminally flat spot a tire?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

How does one set per weekend work? What happens when I f-up first session and terminally flat spot a tire?

Maybe you replace with a previously used tire you have?

Basically show up with any marked tire. Unmarked only allowed on grid for qualifying.

Pacific F2000 has used a tire rule for years.
P16 of their rulebook says a used tire...
http://www.pacificf2000.com/wp-conte...-Rule-Book.pdf

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Any news on the spec tires? When are we going to vote on them?

[EYERACE]

I like to get the tires for the next event mounted at the current event.......or at least get a new set shipped in a couple of weeks before that next event and get 'em mounted myself........that way I'm ready to go at that next event immediately as I'm unloading at that next event.
Hmmmmm......as it stands I can't call a tire supplier to load up before Turkey Trot.......because the question obviously is: which ones?
Sure hope Regional Supps will allow the 'non-spec' for at least one event into the future

[EYERACE]

The best I can figure from perusing SCCA.com and FasTracks listed......
..........and finding a notice that seems to amount to >
there will be no November FasTrack

......is that the possibility of an FC spec tire being foisted on us at the last minute becomes even greater.

[problemchild]

......is that the possibility of an FC spec tire being foisted on us at the last minute becomes even greater.

Or ...... For the good of the class, this needs to happen ASAP. The class cannot afford to waste another year. What is taking so long?

[rallaer]

Or ...... For the good of the class, this needs to happen ASAP. The class cannot afford to waste another year. What is taking so long?

Just because you have an opinion on what is best for the class doesn’t make it a desperate truth. Our numbers have been down for years. I was at the Runoffs in Daytona with 10 cars. I was at mid Ohio with 6. The last 4 years have been better and next year looks very promising. Perhaps the SCCA is weighing opinions from all competitors and trying to find some common ground. At this point, if they think this is necessary, which is still being debated, they need to give all of us at least 6 months for people to adjust.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Just because you have an opinion on what is best for the class doesn’t make it a desperate truth. Our numbers have been down for years. I was at the Runoffs in Daytona with 10 cars. I was at mid Ohio with 6. The last 4 years have been better and next year looks very promising. Perhaps the SCCA is weighing opinions from all competitors and trying to find some common ground. At this point, if they think this is necessary, which is still being debated, they need to give all of us at least 6 months for people to adjust.

I think Greg's point is not that we're going to fall apart without it, it's that it looks to be a certainty, yet undecided.

When you basically tell everyone it's going to happen, and it appears it's going to happen last minute, people get discouraged.

I've already lowered my LOA (likelyhood of attendence) to a January race because everyday the opportunity for testing on the new tires is going away.

[rallaer]

I think Greg's point is not that we're going to fall apart without it, it's that it looks to be a certainty, yet undecided.

Or ...... For the good of the class, this needs to happen ASAP. The class cannot afford to waste another year. What is taking so long?

I think the "class cannot afford to waste another year" part means we're going to fall apart without it...

I've already lowered my LOA (likelyhood of attendence) to a January race because everyday the opportunity for testing on the new tires is going away.

Well that kinda goes against the whole goal now, eh?

[DaveW]

The issue is in discussion at all levels; a decision has not been made. As for a time line, that will likely depend upon the form of the proposals. The FSRAC, FC Adhoc, CRB and Staff are all mindful of the timing and implementation of these types of decisions on the part of the competitors and suppliers alike.

This is the current situation as I understand it. The above mentioned committees, etc. are attempting to make the best decision they think is possible for FC racers as quickly as possible so that it will not have to be put off for another year (or more).

[problemchild]

I think Greg's point is not that we're going to fall apart without it, it's that it looks to be a certainty, yet undecided.

I was just countering one perspective with another. I believe that any good business identifies where their business needs to be, and steers their business in that direction. The more successful business people do that faster and better than their competitors. Spec tires are inevitable, (atleast a decade late) so lets get on with it. Get any short term pain out of the way, so the class can get on with the long term gain.

FWIW, I say that knowing I could run 4 weekends on my current stock of tires. What is best for me, or any other competitor, for the next 1/2 year should be inconsequential.

[Daryl DeArman]

How likely is it that the chosen spec tire (if it works out that way) will be the same tire that Greg or Paul have and/or accustomed to racing?