FC tire survey e-mail

[Rick Kirchner]

Got a tire survey link from roadracing@SCCA.com. Nice to be included even though I let my membership lapse and I'm not currently racing with the SCCA.


1. Do you support the idea of SCCA adopting a spec tire for FC?

Arguably, should have been one of the last questions.
2. If SCCA adopts a tire rule for FC, is it important to consider "at track" service in making a determination as to which tires(s) to utilize?

Is this an SCCA thing? With the exception of the excellent Buttonwillow tire shop NONE of the Southwest tracks have a tire shop on-site (with the possible exception of Willow Springs, but that guy is a freaking joke). Fontana, Pahrump, Vegas, Chuckwalla - none of them. I don't think there's one at Firebird or Wilcox either. Pretty much learned to be prepared and self-sufficient on that one. Hoosier shows up for SVRA - but that's another one of their side deals.
3. Do you support the idea of utilizing a radial type tire in FC?

4. Do you favor a contingency program or applying contingency funds to reduction of the cost of tires?

An interesting question, but outside of a half-dozen really fast guys, who gives a crap? I suppose tat if it increases the number of take offs and there's a "trickle down" and the performance doesn't fall off a cliff after a few cycles, well then I guess it might matter to everybody else, but really, what's the point of a contingency program when there's a spec tire involved?
5. Do you support limiting the number of tires that can be used during a race weekend (qualifying and races)?

6. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for a race weekend?

7. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for Runoffs?

8. Rank the following by importance:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Cost





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Durability (overall mileage)





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Ultimate Performance





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Consistency (fall off between heat cycles)





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Drivability





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Contingency Program





1 2 3 4 5 6 7
USA Manufacturer







9. Should the rule specify the size of the tire to be used for front and rear (to prevent use of front tires on the rear)

10. What do you currently pay for a new set of tires in FC?

Seems to me that this question should have been #2.
11. Does the price listed above include mounting and balancing?

12. Does the price listed above include shipping or delivery?

13. How many new sets of tires do you purchase (on average) during a race season?

And this one should have been #3. Should have also asked how many events and test days you run - combined with #2 and #3 tells you a lot about the market.

Would have been nice to see the questions about cost, durability, and consistency right up front.

[Agamble5]

I sent mine back in. Will we get to see the results?

[CGOffroad]

I submitted my survey yesterday and sent a question to SCCA regarding FC owners that potentially did not receive an email and link to Survey Monkey. See response below:

If you are an FC owner and have a car setting in your garage.... why is it setting there? If you feel that other drivers are out spending you on tires here is your chance to get involved and possibly level the field a bit. If you feel the Zetec is killing the Pinto, how would you know if your car has been setting in the garage for years? Pinto owners have engine updates available and weight allowances that have gone into effect. This is a fantastic time to be a Formula Continental owner. If the racing world has become something you are no longer a part of, that is fine... life happens. But please, dig your car out of the back corner of the garage and sell it or get it into the hands of someone who may do something with it.


QUESTION:
I have friends that drive Formula Continental but are not active SCCA members. Are all FC car owners invited to this survey, or is it only for active SCCA members? If the survey is NOT open to non SCCA members, could I suggest that it would be worth hearing their opinions also.

ANSWER:
The survey only goes to drivers who have participated in SCCA racing over the past 3 years. If non-SCCA participants want to be heard, I would suggest having them submit a letter to the CRB expressing their opinion.

http://www.clubracingboard.com/

[DaveW]

I sent a letter to the CRB requesting to be included in this survey since I own an FC-legal car which I ran in FC from 1995-2010 and may want to compete again in FC in club racing. If I do, the result on a spec tire would directly affect me.

[badrocco16v]

I sent mine back in. Will we get to see the results?

The survey will close Oct 2nd. I imagine the results would be available shortly afterward. Hopefully everyone with a FC or CFC votes.

Curtis

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I sent a letter to the CRB requesting to be included in this survey since I own an FC-legal car which I ran in FC from 1995-2010 and may want to compete again in FC in club racing. If I do, the result on a spec tire would directly affect me.

In the threads about Zetec weight, etc. I comment about how this information doesn't reach people that have cars in their garage when the effort is clearly stated to get more cars on track.

How can they attract participants without contacting them?
If the effort it to 'revive' the class they certainly need to opinions of people that stopped or are not currently participating.

[John LaRue]

If there is anyone who wants to be included they can reach out and request a survey. If you care to direct the request to me, I will be glad to make sure that it gets to the right person given that the SCCA Staff is in Runoffs prep mode.

John

[DaveW]

I sent a letter to the CRB requesting to be included in this survey since I own an FC-legal car which I ran in FC from 1995-2010 and may want to compete again in FC in club racing. If I do, the result on a spec tire would directly affect me.

I should have mentioned for those not familiar with what I am running in now with the same car, that I am currently in the SCCA-pro sanctioned FRP F2000 Series. So I was a bit surprised to not initially get the survey. SCCA responded immediately, and emailed it to me. I will complete it this evening.

[Lyngengr]

I got an invite from SCCA and returned it promptly. I appreciate being asked my opinion on this issue. I only wish they would have surveyed FC owners/drivers about the Zetec weight increase, but that's another topic.

[EYERACE]

Somebody wants to screw with rules .......again.........in a supposed effort to increase car counts.

Give it up please.

You want increased FC car counts?

Do what Brad did here in the SouthEast with his Series [which I hope isn't going away with all the CoVid fallout]. Sure he had a spec tire.......but that alone wasn't what brought out more cars......

It was all the other stuff in addition that made it work.

[and if you don't know what that was, please say so in public here rather than a PM and I'll elaborate]

Club Ford years ago put together a tire rule and these days SouthEast Regionals are lucky to have maybe one - rarely two - show up. At least here in the SouthEast it's a Divisional Class, so it's unlikely to go away all together. This is not exactly the best example to use for the argument that a Spec tire doesn't 'save' the Class....but it is an example. As of this moment there are ZERO CF cars registered for the SARRC Championships which are one week away and the registration closes early.....but CF does have a Spec tire.....Geeeez.

A Spec tire for FC in SCCA will lead to even fewer Companies making them IMHO no matter which sanctioning body has an event.....and Officials at events have enough to do already, so them running around marking and keeping track of FC tires is just another hassle......and please don't try using bar codes and scaners to make for a simply bigger cluster. Can we keep it simple?

What really needs to be spoken is the WHY behind this survey coming into existence in the first place........and don't just tell me some one thought that this is the way to increase car counts......because that as an answer in isolation is a little hard to believe. Is this an attempt by Hoosier to butt out everyone else? Is this happening because of lobbying by AR directly or indirectly? What gives? Avons and their radials have some hand in things? This survey didn't happen in a vacuum. Without an in depth answer to the question of why I'll feel like I've been pretty much taken advantage of if soon hereafter there's an announcement of an FC Spec tire

[tahoe z]

Somebody wants to screw with rules .......again.........in a supposed effort to increase car counts.

Give it up please.

You want increased FC car counts?

Do what Brad did here in the SouthEast with his Series [which I hope isn't going away with all the CoVid fallout]. Sure he had a spec tire.......but that alone wasn't what brought out more cars......

It was all the other stuff in addition that made it work.

[and if you don't know what that was, please say so in public here rather than a PM and I'll elaborate]

Club Ford years ago put together a tire rule and these days SouthEast Regionals are lucky to have maybe one - rarely two - show up. At least here in the SouthEast it's a Divisional Class, so it's unlikely to go away all together. This is not exactly the best example to use for the argument that a Spec tire doesn't 'save' the Class....but it is an example. As of this moment there are ZERO CF cars registered for the SARRC Championships.....but CF does have a Spec tire.....Geeeez.

A Spec tire for FC in SCCA will lead to even fewer Companies making them IMHO no matter which sanctioning body has an event.....and Officials at events have enough to do already, so them running around marking and keeping track of FC tires is just another hassle......and please don't try using bar codes and scaners to make for a simply bigger cluster. Can we keep it simple?

What really needs to be spoken is the WHY behind this survey coming into existence in the first place........and don't just tell me some one thought that this is the way to increase car counts......because that as an answer in isolation is a little hard to believe. Is this an attempt by Hoosier to butt out everyone else? Is this happening because of lobbying by AR directly or indirectly? What gives? Avons and their radials have some hand in things? This survey didn't happen in a vacuum. Without an in depth answer to the question of why I'll feel like I've been pretty much taken advantage of if soon hereafter there's an announcement of an FC Spec tire

Scca are whores they do this to make money I can afford to buy ant tires I want and remember I think we’re supposed to be thrown in. FX soon right??all open wheel racers need a new place to race and buy the way isn’t the run offs this year. A just pay the money and u can race lol

[Rick Kirchner]

We should ask S2 what they are doing - 25 of em at RA last weekend. Oh wait - not running SCCA.....

[Peter Olivola]

We should ask S2 what they are doing - 25 of em at RA last weekend. Oh wait - not running SCCA.....

They organized themselves without any sanctioning body involvement.

[Rick Kirchner]

They organized themselves without any sanctioning body involvement.

which is the future for non-enterprises/non F4 open wheel

[Peter Olivola]

which is the future for non-enterprises/non F4 open wheel

[tahoe z]

All we need is some people to create openWheel / sports racer. Race organization rent track time from nasa. Vintage track day etc races all we want is to race. Without scca bullish”” they threatened fc and rest of classes. No more runoffs they only count majors participating entries I race with pacific f2000 this year they only did 1 major the rest of the races were regional scca races so so car count for participation rate. Time for all of us to wake up they only want fe/ f4 I’m wiling to work to start this but need help

[Rick Kirchner]

There's no black helicopters when the evidence is overwhelming.

Before the Runoffs went nation-wide Pacific had pretty much the business model that the East Coast series does. Issued their own licenses and ran with whoever they could get a good deal for track time with - VARA, SCCA, HSR-West, etc

[Peter Olivola]

There's no black helicopters when the evidence is overwhelming.

Before the Runoffs went nation-wide Pacific had pretty much the business model that the East Coast series does. Issued their own licenses and ran with whoever they could get a good deal for track time with - VARA, SCCA, HSR-West, etc

How is a program that never cared about qualifying people for the Runoffs overwhelming evidence of SCCA not serving the FC community?

[Rick Kirchner]

FC has been reduced in numbers by at least two events championed by the SCCA. First was the inclusion of FM. While this would have had little effect had the class been included after production stopped (and likely brought more entrants), the fact that production of FM continued likely siphoned off FC customers.

But the worst was FE. One can argue that the FM and FE market shows that there was a need to reduce FC costs through standardization and slowing development costs, and that would have been a good discussion to have - if the club was interested in having it. But they were not. they were interested in Enterprises exploiting this opportunity and making money for one side of the organization at the expense of another.

Instead of FE, why not a Spec FC incorporating many of the elements - no diffuser, spec wings, spec shocks, sealed engine? Why wasn't there a discussion along these lines?

[John LaRue]

Last check an FE and FE2 are priced higher than a respectable FC.

Let's try to focus on the positives of the class and SCCA rather than beating everything into the ground.

Cheers,

John

[Peter Olivola]

FC has been reduced in numbers by at least two events championed by the SCCA. First was the inclusion of FM. While this would have had little effect had the class been included after production stopped (and likely brought more entrants), the fact that production of FM continued likely siphoned off FC customers.

But the worst was FE. One can argue that the FM and FE market shows that there was a need to reduce FC costs through standardization and slowing development costs, and that would have been a good discussion to have - if the club was interested in having it. But they were not. they were interested in Enterprises exploiting this opportunity and making money for one side of the organization at the expense of another.

Instead of FE, why not a Spec FC incorporating many of the elements - no diffuser, spec wings, spec shocks, sealed engine? Why wasn't there a discussion along these lines?

Good luck finding someone to play whack-a-mole with you, Rick.

[tahoe z]

Good luck finding someone to play whack-a-mole with you, Rick.

The best solution on the west coast is for peter west pacific f2000 to run a full open wheel /sports racer organization but its a lot of work but he really runs a first class series. But he would be the best option on the west coast.

[Rick Kirchner]

Last check an FE and FE2 are priced higher than a respectable FC.

Let's try to focus on the positives of the class and SCCA rather than beating everything into the ground.

Cheers,

John

John - how are you to fix anything if you cannot objectively evaluate how you got to this point and what the potential solutions are? In 20+ years on this board I've never seen anything more than a superficial attempt at that regardless of class, regardless of situation. If I'm wrong, somebody please set me straight - just give me an example.

Please, enumerate the various positives of the SCCA that are not delivered by other organizations, and let's not start with "insurance" shall we?

[Rick Kirchner]

Good luck finding someone to play whack-a-mole with you, Rick.

Your passive aggressive trolling is no longer worth my time.

[Peter Olivola]

Your passive aggressive trolling is no longer worth my time.

That must be your way of saying you refuse to answer my question. (And, of course, Greg thinks anyone who attacks SCCA is just peachy-keen)

[problemchild]

That must be your way of saying you refuse to answer my question. (And, of course, Greg thinks anyone who attacks SCCA is just peachy-keen)

Actually, I don't. I distrust anyone who blindly supports SCCA. The SCCA process has many issues, and refusal to acknowledge and seek to reform those issues, is just to the detriment of all the road racing community in this country.

[problemchild]

While I appreciate the access to take the survey, it certainly seemed to ask too many questions, which will just extenuate the main issue in the class of too many diverse agendas to get consensus.

An example of that is the question "Do you support the idea of utilizing a radial type tire in FC?". There is no option for those that don't consider that a critical point .... as in someone who would prefer a bias tire, but understands that radials are a better choice for most people, and think that having a spec tire is more important than their personal preference. Or that they prefer a radial tire, but could accept a bias tire because they think that having a spec tire is more important than their personal preference. I believe a majority of people would accept their 2nd or 3rd choice of tire, if it meant getting a spec tire deal done. I do not see that this survey could ever provide that conclusion. I expect many of the "no" responses would have fallen into the 3rd option if offered.

Virtually every question should have had an option stating "that is not a critical point for me".

[Peter Olivola]

Actually, I don't. I distrust anyone who blindly supports SCCA. The SCCA process has many issues, and refusal to acknowledge and seek to reform those issues, is just to the detriment of all the road racing community in this country.

There's a difference between working within the SCCA to effect change and blind support just as there's a difference between constructive and pointless criticism. What happened 20 years ago has been acknowledged as fraught with error by even those who made some of those decisions. What's happening now is an attempt to find where SCCA fits in the motorsports community. Growth is not coming in Road (club) racing. Rather it's in other programs. Even Solo has plateaued. TNiA and TTNT are the growth area. If SCCA were out to get the historic formula car classes then it looks like they're out to get every class in the club racing program.

The market has shrunk for open wheel racing to a degree not seen in other categories. SCCA shrinkage is across the board, but the production based classes have been scattered by the rise of other organizations. Not so with formula classes. The F4 & F3 programs don't account for the club formula class reductions. Decisions to move away from SCCA Majors by the F1000 and West Coast FC programs may be of value to the individuals who made those decisions, but they weren't for the club formula community.

That SCCA has been able to bring FRP back under SCCA sanction and provide a way to include those classes in the Runoffs qualification program is hardly the doomsday scenario you like to paint.

You and Rick suffer from the "my garage" syndrome: what's in it and where's it located. Your inability to look beyond your own personal interests to the club (remember, it's still a club,) leaves you in the position of being gadfly malcontents.

What are both of you doing to improve the club?

[problemchild]

You and Rick suffer from the "my garage" syndrome: what's in it and where's it located.

You are so busy cheerleading, that you don't listen.

Perhaps you should spent more time listening, and less on sesquipedalion speech. Rick and I are the complete opposite of your syndrome.

[Peter Olivola]

You are so busy cheerleading, that you don't listen.

Perhaps you should spent more time listening, and less on sesquipedalion speech. Rick and I are the complete opposite of your syndrome.

I don't listen? Seems to me you refuse to hear what's being said to you and continue to offer nothing but pointless criticism or rather, criticism because things aren't being done to your satisfaction. Well guess what, it's a big club and you're not the only ones in it.

[He49]

Hey, how do I get this survey? I did a few races this year but they didn't send me the survey.

I'd defiantly be for a spec tire if it lasts and is affordable. Finding decent tires is my biggest issue and new ones every weekend well that's great, but I race for fun and I don't have deep pockets or any sponsors.

Hayden Eade

[CGOffroad]

Hey, how do I get this survey? I did a few races this year but they didn't send me the survey.

Fill out the request form at the link below.

http://www.clubracingboard.com/


OR, scroll back up to Post #7. John LaRue has offered to be contacted directly and he will forward the request for survey.

[Daryl DeArman]

sesquipedalion

Thanks for that

[Bob Wright]

Ya'll should read FasTrack. A spec tire for FC has been recommended for the class by the CRB based on member response and forwarded to Club Racing for implementation.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Ya'll should read FasTrack. A spec tire for FC has been recommended for the class by the CRB based on member response and forwarded to Club Racing for implementation.

They are recommending pursuing it - not a specific tire yet.
According to:
https://www.scca.com/downloads/52029...es-09/download

[EYERACE]

Yo Beer...........thanks for the link.........everyone note that FasTrack was dated Sept. 1st.
So the survey is really after-the-fact just a 'survey' I guess and my conclusion from the link is that FC is getting a Spec Tire which I guess is no Secret as in the SecretCarClub
I suppose the next secret will be that we Owner/Drivers all get to vote on a specific tire from a selection?
.....not holding my breath on that one.

[Rick Kirchner]

While I appreciate the access to take the survey, it certainly seemed to ask too many questions, which will just extenuate the main issue in the class of too many diverse agendas to get consensus.

When I started the original post I had intended to delve a bit more into the science of polling, but I just let it slide. You can tell a lot about what the pollster is looking for based on the way questions are constructed and organized. Are you being led down a specific path? Do you have the option of adding your own perspective?

You can produce surveys that honestly collect data in the most unbiased way (if you are looking for data) or you can use them to reinforce particular points of view.

I found this one to be a little more of the latter, but frankly, just a bit random.

Funny Olivola's comment about "personal interests". I have none other than to maintain and race my car as often as I can afford to, which I've been doing since 2002 with this car.

[problemchild]

I have none other than to maintain and race my car as often as I can afford to, which I've been doing since 2002 with this car.

And I just want my friends and customers to be able to keep racing their FC cars.

[problemchild]

Thanks for that

Using high brow words does not mean you are smart .... you just know how to use a search engine.
But it was the perfect word for the occasion!

[CJD]

Regarding the survey, if a radial tire was determined to be the control tire how would that change the setup for a mid 90s Van Diemen? Hopefully I can run next year and any info would be helpful. I missed this season due the Virus and other medical issues, hopefully be ready for Sebring in Feb.