Zetec minimum weight raised to 1220 lbs
Everyone running a Zetec engine should be aware of a GCR rule change in August. The minimum weight of cars with a Zetec has been raised to 1220 lbs (from 1200 lbs). As per the Fast Track bulletin, this is to encourage Pinto-powered cars to enter races, even though the CRB recognizes that there is little performance difference between the two engines. So are they handicapping the Zetec cars for no good reason?
Well all the regional series that are doing well with participation are doing it (NWFC, GLC etc) so SCCA is just a couple years behind the curve. To be honest it should be a little more than 20 pounds as the regional series are running 40-50lbs.
Mark my words...
Somebody is going to take a chassis with a modern design including the new max width rule, install a fully updated Pinto with a great cylinder head, and blow everyone else's doors off.
Dave Weitzenhof
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Originally Posted by DaveW
Somebody is going to take a chassis with a modern design including the new max width rule, install a fully updated Pinto with a great cylinder head, and blow everyone else's doors off.
Oh, you must be talking about something like this.......
And here I was thinking thanks to Skip Weld [see FASTRACK] the Z was only 2010.....? Oops.... 1220. Never mind. Skip beat me at Daytona anyway 2 weekends ago.....I was on old tires and a Pinto. ...but I generally let my Patients win....eh Skip? ;-]
Yes Stan, You are very good about that. Your pinto does run well. Congratulations.
And that, folks is the unintended consequences of rules creep. A 2001 VD with a fully developed Pinto should be practically unbeatable under the current rules, all else being equal. The SCCA's attempt to lure 25 yr old chassis and 40 yr old motors out of the garage has resulted in making the car to beat in FC something eligible for vintage. I'm not sure this will help the class in the long run. Unfortunately, I'm also not sure who cares anymore.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
I don't care one way or another, but I keep hearing all these fast guys say the pinto is the one to beat. But I'll bet my left nut that none of you current Zetec guys will be pushed by one at the runoffs, this year or next, unless one of the engine builders makes you a very tasty deal.
When I see long-rod big cam pintos flying out of the shops I'll believe it.
25 years old? Hell the newest VD is 12 years old. That's older than the FFs were when they were accepted into vintage in the 80s.
Is there perhaps another reason?
Maybe to take a step away from the FC as compared to the F4?
Or how does that affect things if pushed into Fx?
2 years ago a proposed loosening Pinto rules to allow cheaper rebuilds. The measure I suggested for going too far was when someone pulled their Zetec and replaced it with a Pinto.
Got a polite no.
This won't get cars back on track. There is no cost reduction here.
What is/was the effective date?
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
8/1/2020
The FC Adhoc made this proposal noting that no Pinto has won a significant event in a considerable period of time; the FSRAC did not like the proposal citing concerns over creating an over-dog with the Pinto given recent engine allowances. Given the problem of getting cars on track, and the potential loss of an automatic Runoffs invitation as per GCR 3.7.4.C, the CRB decided to move forward. If you will trouble yourselves with reading the Technical Bulletin published in the August Fastracks all of this is stated therein. Specifically it provides:
The weight change was debated at length. In the end I did not oppose it, but demanded that language be included to state that this was done to encourage Pinto participation and that performance and participation would be monitored. I for one will be surprised if anyone takes this seriously and puts a Pinto on track; if they do then great. If we have created an over-dog situation then it can be addressed, but until they show up it is a non-issue. (Just like that elusive Cortina powered FF at 1060#)The Zetec weight change is being implemented for the sole and exclusive purpose of making the class more attractive to owners of Pinto cars to encourage their participation in Majors and Super Tour events. The Formula Sports Racing Committee and Club Racing Board note that the Pinto and Zetec engines are very close in performance per dyno information following the recent changes to the Pinto engine rules which permit a new rod, piston and carburetor. The Club Racing Board and Formula Sports Racing Committee will monitor performance and participation figures regarding any future changes.
I almost think that many in our class look for a reason not to race and perhaps we have now given the Zetec cars another. Weight, engine rules, tire rules and the SCCA in general are all great excuses for not putting a car on the track. I have been pushing to get more cars to the grid for quite some time and hear from many different people on this topic. What I have learned is that no one seems to be happy, but everyone has their "idea" about what can turn FC around. With that I am very concerned about the future of the class. I have always thought FC was pretty solid as were the rules. I didn't see too much wrong - it is just a tough ass class to excel in. It takes lots of time, some money, talent and a desire. Nothing different than any other class, just maybe a bit more in the time and desire category. If you are tired of racing, if you no longer have the desire, that is fine - just quit, and stop beating up the class, the SCCA and the efforts of those who are trying to make something of it. The negativity has done more to damage this class and SCCA than anything else.
The bottom line fellow FC folk is that if you don't get the cars on track, and soon, FC will lose its status as a Runoffs class which is significant even if you don't go to Runoffs. That stature helps to insure the global relevancy of the class, its rule set and the value of your FC car and related equipment. FM was a recent victim and FA is not too far behind; lets keep FC off of the chopping block.
The next thing on our plate is this spec tire. I am neutral on this, but will follow the input from the SCCA members who take the time to write in and give their opinion. If this is to be done for 2021 then it has to happen shortly - write your letters by going to the following https://www.crbscca.com/
Regards,
John
I think the "fear" is completely unwarranted. If we are in 'panic' mode, slow measured changes is not the solution.
The FSRAC appears to dislike any proposal.
Well, as a Pinto owner I wish you had opposed it. It's an a$$-backward solution that will not bring Pinto cars out.
It doesn't address the REAL problems Pinto owners face and does not 'improve' things.
Yes and it seems the rule makers always screw with things people are happy with instead of fixing the problems they are unhappy with. Punishing one group doesn't necessarily help the other.
Have you talked to the car owner that has a car in storage and is no longer a member and hasn't raced in 10 years?
Or are you talking to cronies and active people speculating?
I've made the phone calls and tracked guys down.
Adding weight to a Zetec won't encourage them to rebuild their tired Pinto.
If you want Pinto participation, allow overbore (cost-not performance), open up the cam (low cost performance), allow FI (a carb can't match the FI power curve) and stop specing parts that are or are soon to be scarce.
So will it be the Pinto owners fault?
If you're so concerned, take a stand, please. One way or the other. Right or wrong. Neutral is no-where.
You're sounding like my mother-in-law. No opinion until something doesn't work out and she's the first to say "I knew you shouldn't have done that."
If everyone on the FC adhoc is neutral, then 1 guy gets his way.
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 08.17.20 at 1:12 PM.
When you're drowning, I wouldn't complain if someone throws you a gallon milk jug and not a life preserver.
Let's not allow the quest for perfection to kill off any incremental improvement.
But man....a Zetec on spec Hoosiers for SCCA in a market you can buy a really nice car for around $25K? Sign. Me. Up. If that recipe does not significantly add to the car count then I would suspect the cost/value of SCCA is more the issue than the car. That is a ton of bang for $25k.
Last edited by reidhazelton; 08.23.20 at 11:29 PM.
....what Reid said...spot on
So, then why is this (20#) even happening? If this even deters 1 Zetec owner from running, it's a complete failure.
It's not an incremental improvement, it's a kick to the nuts for the Zetec guys.
There's no question about cost/value. That's not the issue. Why aren't you signed up?
No one who owns and races a Zetec and has $40k+ invested mothballs it over 20lbs. It's every Zetec, it doesn't matter. And there aren't going to be any nuts to kick unless more cars come out to play.
Look at the majority of cars that have Pintos. With the hottest Pinto on the planet they are not going to beat a newer Zetec car. Now, MAYBE someone with a current top car will go and put a Pinto in it and smoke everyone. I highly doubt anyone will - and what's far more likely is a few of the pinto guys might come out to play. But, if someone does try to make a Pinto/Citation/Mygale/whatever, and is a total overdog SCCA will react - see John's post.
Why am I not? Have you seen the cost of law school tuition these days?
As someone who has signed up, I purchased a 20K Zetec car and had the engine rebuilt, gets me pretty close to 25.
Don't have a crew or engineer, have to find someone at the track to get me buckled in the car (usually my brother Cliff or Mitchell Racing Services) and do everything myself. Haven't won the Runoffs yet but run competitively, it can be done. The cars are a blast to drive, fun to tune and easy to work on. They also look pretty cool - not sure what more you could ask for.
Not thrilled with adding 20lbs but I'll do it, shut up and go racing. If anyone wants to make a Pinto competitive, and I believe they could, then the 20lbs is a bonus for them. Not sure how buying new cams and fuel injection helps cut costs but all of the new allowances for the Pinto significantly increase lifespan which lowers cost, and as someone who ran a Pinto for a lot of years in S2 they run longer than they are given credit for even before the changes.
From my viewpoint, a spec tire that got you all the way through a double race weekend and could be used for a test day at the next weekend would go a long ways to helping reduce cost.
We can all find a reason to stay home, would be nice to work on a reason to go racing.
Totally agree with what Bill/John/Reid said on this so not much more to add.
Bottom line if you have a car, pinto or zebec just go out and race. We are not gunning to be signed by an indycar team so go out and have fun with your racing friends at the track.
Brian T.
Thanks for the invite Beer Budget. My point of neutrality on the tire issue is simply that I will race regardless of the tire rule. My racing is constrained by personal and business obligations and commitments, not the rules. If you don't like the decisions that are being made then jump in the pool and do something about it. The hours are long, the pay and gratitude is non existent.
So, we are holding all the old chassis hostage on the (remote) possibility that someone will go too fast in a new chassis.
That's been the excuse for years. I agree it's unlikely someone will do that.
I addressed that in my proposal 2 years ago. Give a little, a little more. If it's too much than take something back.
The point is that this new rule is NOT motivating.
I frankly think the older cars are already lost. SCCA knows it, and the whole exercise here is to twist things up so they can throw their arms in the air and say "we tried" and then push FC into Fx to make room for F4 (haloless) version 1 which is soon to be retired. They need a home and SCCA needs to clean house.
Yeah. Daughter in med school. Didn't your GF do that?
I do when I can.
Rule changes that affect people already racing, with the "intent" of bringing back those that aren't are misleading.
Okay, so just go race. What is the SCCA doing about contacting all those old car owners with this wonderful news?
When someone is out of the club they aren't checking forums or Fast Tracks.
I agree. Tire rule or no tire rule - I'm not really affected.Thanks for the invite Beer Budget. My point of neutrality on the tire issue is simply that I will race regardless of the tire rule. My racing is constrained by personal and business obligations and commitments, not the rules. If you don't like the decisions that are being made then jump in the pool and do something about it. The hours are long, the pay and gratitude is non existent.
But that sounds like you are voting based on personal needs, not what's right or best for the club.
Everyone's racing is constrained by something. Sounds like I wouldn't fit in.
At SCCA SARRC race this past weekend, us Pinto guys were given entry cards with a designated minimum weight of 1190 lb. We were pretty surprised at that. No Zetec cars were there for comparison. I scaled at 1207, so looks like I can take some ballast out.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the weights in the [hope it will survive] Southern F2000 Series that Primus helped organize/sponsor set as Pinto 1200 and Z 1250?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the weights in the [hope it will survive] Southern F2000 Series that Primus helped organize/sponsor set as Pinto 1200 and Z 1250? I looked but could find no reference
Perhaps you should call me and explain what it is you are getting at; perhaps I can be of better assistance on the phone. Cheers, John
If you need 50 lbs to make your Pinto competitive, you need to step up your program.
The FFs will be doing faster times.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Re. Pinto weight
So, what is the correct weight for a Pinto car? 1200lbs. or 1190lbs?
Thanks.
pinto
the minimum weight for a Pinto car is 1200 lbs.
From August GCR
B. Formula Continental
1. Pinto Engine: 1200 lbs.
2. Pinto with aluminum cylinder head: 1200 lbs.
3. Zetec Engine: 1220 lbs.
4. Cars running with a sequentially shifted gear box shall add 25 lbs. to minimum weight.
Stan, IRRC, for the Southern Series, Brad set Zetec at 1225. There was discussion about pre 1998 as 1190 or 1175 but that withered on the vine.
NWFC weights are
Zetec (1240)
Pinto (1190)
Pre-1990 (1175)
No burritos for me
Gee, I didn't realize I have it so bad... Last time I weighed I was 1237 with radials... I guess I still have to loss weight.
I'm happy about the added weight.... now I'm not so fat haha
Thanks for the invite Beer Budget. My point of neutrality on the tire issue is simply that I will race regardless of the tire rule. My racing is constrained by personal and business obligations and commitments, not the rules. If you don't like the decisions that are being made then jump in the pool and do something about it. The hours are long, the pay and gratitude is non existent.Not much to say. Reading what you wrote it's clear that if an issue won't affect your racing, you are neutral.
I thought members of a committee should analyze, form opinions and make decisions that are best for the club and class based on the information presented no matter how it affects you.
But my ignorance is showing.
Last time I was scaled in my Pinto after a race I crushed the scales at 1260.
I've lost 25lbs since then but still a long way to go !
I'd prefer that any issue that involves a class in which the CRB member has a vested interest (driver, owner, builder, prep shop, etc.) that they abstain from voting on that issue as to not give the appearance of bias. Not that they don't have other CRB members' ears.
Who without bias would ever do the job? Get real. The process is so dysfunctional that applying any sense of fair play is humorous. I would rather have someone take a leadership role, and make sure the proper decisions get made.I'd prefer that any issue that involves a class in which the CRB member has a vested interest (driver, owner, builder, prep shop, etc.) that they abstain from voting on that issue as to not give the appearance of bias. Not that they don't have other CRB members' ears.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Fair point. Same with the tech inspection process. Unless the club is going to make those paid positions they would have a hard time finding qualified folks motivated to assume the roles.
Yes, leadership would be nice, but not where there's a conflict of interest. Maybe they don't abstain, when there's a COI, but must vote with the majority of letter writers who bothered to submit opinions.The process is so dysfunctional that applying any sense of fair play is humorous. I would rather have someone take a leadership role, and make sure the proper decisions get made.
To be clear we are talking FC adhoc committee - which recommends things to the FSRAC - but their influence matters.
I was speaking to members of the CRB having the appearance of bias and/or conflict of interest and whether or not they should abstain, take a leadership role, or vote with the membership who takes the time to write.
See:
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