Front Wing Dive Planes

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

The front wing plates on my RF95 are ample, and I am considering outside dive planes.

I do not have:

• aerodynamic effect/benefits data;
• micro-adjust mounting procedures;
• vendor sources (as in many);

Any help?

[Bob Wright]

In my limited experience...the wings on a ‘95 are old technology and a bit numb. Don’t do anything that will create drag. IIRC, wings don’t really come into play until you get to about 90 mph; the rest is mechanical grip and the ‘95 VD has a lot of that. It is fundamentally a really good car. I loved the one I had.

[SteveG]

In my limited experience...the wings on a ‘95 are old technology and a bit numb. Don’t do anything that will create drag. IIRC, wings don’t really come into play until you get to about 90 mph; the rest is mechanical grip and the ‘95 VD has a lot of that. It is fundamentally a really good car. I loved the one I had.

Bob,

20+ years ago, this is what Keith Averill told me about front wings effect on handling: Take an old front wing you don't care about, tape it on the end of a broomstick. Have someone else drive and accelerate towards 45MPH while you hold the wing out the passenger side window...
All Y'all will be amazed at how quickly the broomstick breaks and the wing goes tumbling off behind you.
I used his late '80s Ultra-Reynard front wings on my '87 Reynard and usually ran them flat or slightly positive because of the down force they delivered.

Steve

[J Leonard]

If you put something on the outside of your wing end plates would it make your wing to wide to be legal?

[DaveW]

In my limited experience...the wings on a ‘95 are old technology and a bit numb. Don’t do anything that will create drag. IIRC, wings don’t really come into play until you get to about 90 mph; the rest is mechanical grip and the ‘95 VD has a lot of that. It is fundamentally a really good car. I loved the one I had.

In my experience, downforce changes can often be felt below 50 mph. Of course, that depends on the track layout, wing configuration, etc.

If you don't believe that, just look at the huge wings on some championship-winning autocross cars.

[problemchild]

Considering the variation in levels of competition, variation of cars, etc today, I have difficulty understanding the need to trim a small amount of front wing angle off by adding expensive whizzy parts. Learning to drive with a few degrees less rear wing would probably have much more effect than tuning straightline speed with front wings. I have to think that buying tires more often, or more entry fees, etc would move your program forward more than dive planes or whizzy end plates.

Brad at Primus often has access to the latest front wings that people are producing.

[S Lathrop]

There was an old guy who lived outside Indianapolis and he was instrumental in teaching me about both shocks and wings. After his death, his wife, Anita, was the shock person at Earls Indy.

His name was Howard Millikan. He had a setup in his garage where he could turn it into a wind tunnel by opening doors at both ends and putting an airplane engine on a stand at one end of the garage. So a lot of what he had to say about aerodynamics came from his experiments in that garage.

What he told me about front wings is that if you want to increase the down force, run a larger single element wing. What I have learned is that a front wing not only makes down force because of it's shape but the force actually increases as the wing gets closer to the ground because of ground effects. For the pilots in the crowd, this is the opposite of float that you get when you try to land a plane with too much speed.

Flaps and other secondary elements on the front wings might increase down force or they might actually decrease rear down force by causing turbulence in the airflow over the diffuser and to the rear wing, lower element. You will change the balance of the car but with an increase in drag.

[Rick Kirchner]

It was always explained to me that the flaps and dive planes on the outside of front tires were there to to take advantage of more downforce with little drag penalty - because that air was going to hit the front tire anyway, so it kind of didn't matter what you did to it. I think that came from either the Katz or McBeath book.

[kea]

So if I have this right, you want to get rid of ( narrow) some actual wing that you currently have, so you can run some wizzy bits located outside the end plates and thus susceptible to more turbulence from the front tire.
I'd prefer a wing, for a car of this type.

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

I saw this, and came to the conclusion the designer reasoned it was beneficial.

[924RACR]

Definitely need a whole-car CFD run on that to understand what's going on. It's been hilarious to see some of the results we've generated on our P2 - and yes, the potentially useful ones HAVE been validated in the real-world, with flowviz, downforce numbers etc. - when you make a change at the rear of the car and it has a big impact on how the front works, and vice versa.

So just because it works (you assume) on a different car, there's little to no guarantee it's going to do the same on your bodywork.

It's especially true with those little whizzy bits, which have such small, focused impacts they really rely on interactions with other areas of the bodywork to have a benefit.

If I were looking at a CFD run of those, I'd be looking at the side and underbody of the car, and I expect it'll make a significant difference where they're located (laterally) with respect to the tire. They also tend to rack up drag pretty quickly, compared to other methods (as a number here have alluded to).

If you're lacking front downforce without too much drag, I'd be inclined to a complete front wing upgrade, or look at the efficiency of your diffuser/underbody...

[JerryH]

It was always explained to me that the flaps and dive planes on the outside of front tires were there to to take advantage of more downforce with little drag penalty - because that air was going to hit the front tire anyway, so it kind of didn't matter what you did to it. I think that came from either the Katz or McBeath book.

That is only true if the whizzy bit are in front of the tire.
On the other hand, if the whizzy bits on the end plate are inboard of the tires there is added drag, and possibly a reduction in rear downforce.

[Chris Livengood]

You necromanced this thread.

That said, open tires naturally create lift. So disturbing the air in front of the tire, especially so below the axle line, helps negate that. Meaning you get a net increase in downforce without actually having to drag a wing through the air. Whether those dive planes, shoes, and end plates help to do that is another question, but the goal is legit. Of course, those end plate assemblies are also doing/attempting a number of things for the wing plane itself.

[Rick Iverson]

In my experience, downforce changes can often be felt below 50 mph. Of course, that depends on the track layout, wing configuration, etc.

If you don't believe that, just look at the huge wings on some championship-winning autocross cars.

Dave;

From Garey Guzman‘s Zink-Ciration Website (very nicely done), I studied your car carefully, to observe your front plane is absent of everything.

So can I conclude winglets, dive planes, thingies and ancillaries are counterproductive to our class? That is, low HP vs. smooth air is good?

[mark elder]

"From Garey Guzman‘s Zink-Ciration Website (very nicely done), I studied your car carefully, to observe your front plane is absent of everything."

I cannot find this website; can anyone help?

Thanks.

[EricP]

"From Garey Guzman‘s Zink-Ciration Website (very nicely done), I studied your car carefully, to observe your front plane is absent of everything."

I cannot find this website; can anyone help?

Thanks.

https://redroadracing.com/zinkregistry

[phantomjock]

I note endplates and gurneys on the front wing;


And, as far as potential contribution by various components:
(image from formula1-dictionary.net )

Endplate effectiveness will be limited on the front wing due to ride height/ground clearance. But, they can increase downforce and also shape/position the vortices generated to inside or outside the front wheels.

Cheers - Jim

Rick, I'll Call you this week for lunch - Its my turn!

[S Lathrop]

Something to think about:

Anything you add to the outside of the front wings must be included within the maximum width of the wing.

For FC/F2000, the front bodywork rules and the tires that are used, make the maximum wing width less that the distance between the inside of the front tires. A lot of the devices on the outside of the end fence were used to influence the airflow around and drag from the front tires.

The question then is, do you gain more down force by making the wing narrower and adding devices to the outside of the end fence than the amount of down force you will loose with a narrower wing? I don't know the answer to that.

Also, remember that the lower element of a front wing does gain some down force from the proximity to the ground, so the actual loss of down force is more than what you would get for just having a shorter front wing.

[phantomjock]

Maybe an approach that uses a "sports car" nose?
But, I suppose modifying brake ducts to provide an "air curtain" might be verboten too.

Maybe F-S (Formula Libre)?

Cheers - Jim

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

I had quite the lengthy visit with RP yesterday. And from it, I gained both knowledge and understanding. I am going to the minimalist front wing like Dave’s, just end plates and wickerbills.

[Rick Iverson]

Rick, I'll Call you this week for lunch - Its my turn!

Jim, I’ll be out of state at least once this week. Absolutely, let’s hook up when the dust settles.

[JerryH]

It was always explained to me that the flaps and dive planes on the outside of front tires were there to to take advantage of more downforce with little drag penalty - because that air was going to hit the front tire anyway, so it kind of didn't matter what you did to it. I think that came from either the Katz or McBeath book.

That is only true if the whizzy bits are in front of the tire.
If not the added downforce adds a ton of drag and can reduce rear downforce.

JerryH
JDR race cars