For those of you with pre-85 Atlantic cars, Long Beach is oversubscribed, Sonoma Speed Festival is getting there too... if you have not submitted your car, do it soon.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/sonoma-speed-festival-raceway-280597
Sonoma Speed Festival is filling up too... reg soon
For those of you with pre-85 Atlantic cars, Long Beach is oversubscribed, Sonoma Speed Festival is getting there too... if you have not submitted your car, do it soon.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/sonoma-speed-festival-raceway-280597
sonoma race
$1950 entry fees to keep the non titled rifraf out!
You get what you pay for. It's a great event. Every bit as good as Monterey.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Sometimes, one does. Other times, certain places think their wares are somehow worth more.
Curious... how much are entry fees for the Road America vintage race in July?
Last edited by E1pix; 12.15.19 at 3:54 PM.
Sonoma
Think it’s worth three RA events?
Only to the check cashers.
If it ins't worth the price of entry to enough people, it won't fill up. If it sells out, they didn't charge enough.
Being fair is so passé.
What's fair? The supplier guesses what they think is a fair price, if the market decides they were wrong, it won't be purchased. If people are buying, those people writing the check must have found it fair.Originally Posted by E1pix
If they charged half as much would they get more than twice the entries? If they charged twice as much would they get over half the entries? I think the answer to both of those is "not likely", which means they found the right balance for this type of event.
A certain driver I know said he ate at drank enough fine wine to cover the difference in entry with other events....
It was certainly a great event last May. The organizers took a different, more upscale approach. Big top tents instead of a sea of enclosed trailers. Yes, expensive for a single weekend, but so was towing back to WI and racing at the 50th at RA. It all depends on what it's worth to you.
But then, SSF did not invite the great unwashed masses of Formula Ford last May or this coming May.....
Charles, I hope you make it out this year, I'll take you to Angelos Deli for a sandwich.
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
Fair is fair -- not a right available to only the privileged.
Candidly, your argument sounds nearly identical to one used by companies like Merck; arguments I've heard justified over and over by investors having no issue profiting from the backs and bankruptcies of common folk.
From another angle, please tell me how a race at Sears should cost triple that of Road America? 120-130% to cover increased cost of living, sure, but 300%?
The above comment about this event being comparable to Monterey misses something. That place bleeds everyone dry, too. Why doesn't RA? Or the Glen? Or Mid-Ohio? Or Road Atlanta? Or the Brickyard? I've been to them all several times.
I'll tell you why, because those tracks are fair while extravagant west coast tracks threaten the sport's very existence. One good market crash and who's left?
Yes, racers will come to live their passions. Bad argument. Maybe some could have done more racing with reasonable entry fees, but it's clear with some tracks that their greed is far more important than the supporters who helped build their wealth to begin with.
Personally, I'd like racing to survive for all -- rather than continue trends of privilege that have me barely recognizing my favorite sport anymore. While I realize competition is expensive and thus one of wealthier sectors, once it's at the point that even fans have to overspend to bear witness, you get what we've gotten -- fewer enthusiasts to replace, on either side of the fence.
Last edited by E1pix; 12.15.19 at 11:48 PM.
Entering a race isn't a right.
Feel free to start your own pharma company and charge as little as you wish. There are many reasons drugs cost what they cost in the USA, big pharma greed isn't the primary reason.
It's not about what is should/shouldn't cost. Why should we be able to tell somebody else how much they may charge for their product or service? We only get to decide how much we are willing to pay (or not pay by going elsewhere).
You're deflecting while ignoring my questions.
Regardless, I'll answer yours. First, I didn't even hint at a suggestion that we should be able to dictate fees. What I did do was suggest other circuits offer value, while others do not. Fair business practices encourage making a reasonable margin, greed dictates getting as much as one can regardless of actual value.
Only one of those methods shows respect for the buyer; without whom, the seller has nothing.
Anyway, we'll get nowhere here so please enjoy your time at the track while it's still there.
I thought your questions were answered with my response, "It's not about what it should/shouldn't cost".
The actual value is determined by those willing to exchange their dollars for the goods/services. Not by those offering said goods/services. If nobody is willing to pay me $.02 for my thoughts, it doesn't matter how valuable I believe they are.
You do the same. If someone is charging too much for a good/service you want, don't pay it. Take your money elsewhere. The consumers have the power, they are not the victims of greed. . . unless we are talking about income taxes
Whether agreeing or not I respect the exchange, Daryl.
I fully agree on our money being our "power," if you will. I hear folks endlessly whine that we have no choice, and they blindly support rather bad companies, products, and causes that take us down the wrong path.
I believe we can change the world with our wallet, and raise your $.02 to two dimes for your 900% return. Spend it wisely, in several places.
All the Best.
A bit of understanding goes a long way. The founder of this event, Jeff O'Neill, is an established vintage racer. He is local to the Sonoma area and has always had a passion to establish an event that would rival, or surpass, Monterey Historics. (You've already denigrated that event.) You mention a "reasonable margin?" Jeff lost a ton o' money on the first event and will do so again this year. A ton o' his money. His vision was to create something more along the lines of Goodwood. He put his money where his mouth is.
Yes, the entry fees are higher than a Club race or a basic SVRA/HSR event. The facilities are way better, the conditions are way better. The treatment the racers get is certainly much better than these other events. Every racer is invited to a local winery for a blow-out event with excellent food and wine which would cost at least $250 per racer were the racer required to buy a ticket. The paddock is clean, well-organized, with amenities not found at other tracks, including real bathrooms. Those aspects may not make much difference to you. Your perspective. Yes, I've done RA, the Glen, Tremblant, COTA, and the Historics. Each race must be taken on its own merit. Watkins Glen certainly can not be compared to Monterey or Sonoma/Napa. This event is a different animal from the others. I see no valid argument in the comparisons.
Allow racers to decide on their own where they wish to spend their racing dollars. There is no "respect" to be shown for the buyers. It is a choice. If I can't, or choose not to, afford a certain event that is my choice. I can not blame it on the event organizer.
To follow your logic, we all should drive the cheapest car on the market so everyone can drive the same car and no one feels left out.
There will always be someone out there with a faster gun, prettier wife, fewer ex-wives, more expensive car, or bigger appendage.
To quote the great Don Henley - Get Over It!
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
With all respect Charles, Watkins Glen for one is the hallowed ground of racing legends. I'm quite sure every kid who stood there in awe was imagining racing with grit on their faces, not eating in white shirts.
All I'm suggesting is racing has suffered for it becoming the domain of a chosen few, and it's clear some like it this way. To each their own of course, but you've illustrated my points perfectly.
I understand your angst. I agree that racing has changed, but not because the more-advantaged are ruining it. Racing is, and always has been, the realm of those who chose to afford it. Sure, when I started in the 60s there were local mechanics who put their TR3s on the track on a shoestring budget. And they had fun. However, even then there were the racers who could afford a Cobra or Ferrari, etc. They upped the bar. Ever will it be so.
The racers at Monterey and the Sonoma festival clearly hold to your concept of "hallowed" racing. The machines are wonderful, and those of us who are fortunate enough to drive one realize the cars are the stars, not the drivers. These are the cars that your "legends" drove. Should they not be shown in an appropriate setting? Should their owners not be respected enough to provide a good venue for them to display their cars so all of us can see them, both up-close-and-personal, and also on the track?
Not all of the cars at these events are high-dollar bolides. I have to wonder if you have attended either of these two events. There are many racers who race affordable cars, and do so with gusto.
The green-eyed monster has always had a place in racing. However, it seems you are advocating an ascetic form of racing where everything is done in a minimalist setting because not everyone can afford the same thing. I, and most other racers, have done the grit-in-the-teeth racing as we grew in the sport. I, for one, appreciate the opportunity of eating in a white shirt.
To add some information, one of the attractions to this event, that was paid for by the organizers, was the demonstration of Hamilton's AMG Petronas F1 car driven by Esteban Gutierrez, who set a new lap record. He was supported by the Mercedes factory test team. Possibly you feel this is a waste of time. In actuality, it was one of the best-received activities of the weekend. And, son, it wasn't cheap to provide. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9QnmFhvq3AztYs
To your point about Watkins Glen - I, for one, like that track and will attend the event this coming July. I appreciate its history, along with the histories of equally important tracks (Mosport, Laguna, Sears, RA, etc.) And, there will be some really fascinating vintage cars there. The amenities, however, will be much less than at Sonoma. And the entry fee will be commensurately lower. This is how it should be. Hope to see you at one of these events.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
I agree with many of your points, Charles, but most importantly respect the time you've taken to defend them.
My perspectives are drawn from a life in and around our sport, first from the outside, and then the inside. What has become obvious are trends toward the exclusionary, and now that reaches into Club level -- where common folk can't compete on an equitable financial level to arrive-and-drivers that move on to other pursuits in short order. I see the passions of common competitors simply trying to live their dreams drowned out and damaging the sport, and Yes, find that troubling on behalf of literally hundreds of drivers I know and have known.
How that relates to our discussion is the effect of trends. No, I do not think all events should be minimalist, but think we might well agree that when elite events are priced much higher than others for being affordable to only a few, other events may well have to follow suit to compete. If they can't, or the competitors are priced out, the trend hurts the sport. I find this well illustrated in SCCA now, and while it's not a matter of "angst," but rather one of genuine concern for the future vitality of a sport I love. Affording one's passions is evermore often a demand more so than a choice.
We had planned to do both Monterey and Sears (IndyCar) in 2007, but unfortunately my wife had a medical issue that found us in ICU instead. I have a photo client and buddy running Lola F5000 cars out of New Zealand, and we wanted to meet him at Laguna in 2018, then realized I wasn't about to spend a Grand on a campsite and tickets, and this is part of the issue.
I've loved this sport since I was 35 months old and am now 59 (years, Ha). My arguments aren't just about me -- they are on behalf of common families not being able to even witness certain events like I was raised on, and that is spreading. If I were a kid today with a schoolteacher father, would I even be able to view and love racing at all? I shudder to think of what my childhood would have lost, including racing being the only connection I ever had to my late Dad.
The same is now true in many areas. My Grandpa was a school principle who spent his adult life supporting baseball, whereas today he couldn't afford a game ticket. That may seem off-topic, but it's an identical plight to what trends I see in racing.
The solution is more complex, of course, and I stand convinced one doesn't exist. All I want is for blue collar generations that follow ours to be able to stand trackside, though they sure still can at oval races, and I fear those days are all but gone in road racing.
With all respects, Thank You.
Thanks for the well-reasoned response. I totally agree with your main point that racing has become more expensive as we have grown, even for youngsters like yourself. Unfortunately the rise in costs permeates every aspect of our sport, even F1 where they are having to restrict the budgets of major teams so the Williams and HAAS teams of the sport can compete (somewhat.) In some ways we are victims of our own successes. As more and more people learned of the sport, and people began to realize even they could participate, the aspect of affordability changed. And, since it is a competitive sport, people will do whatever they can (pay) to beat the next guy. Even the spec classes were/are rife with financial advantages.
I'm not sure I totally agree with that sequitur. In some cases that would be the trend, but IMO that is a geographical issue as much as financial. The Glen can't put on the same type of exclusive event that CA can. Don't misunderstand me - I do view these events as elite (elitist?) and hope we are limited to very few. To see more open up would diminish the originals.How that relates to our discussion is the effect of trends. No, I do not think all events should be minimalist, but think we might well agree that when elite events are priced much higher than others for being affordable to only a few, other events may well have to follow suit to compete.
Too true. The Club (which I differentiate from the vintage/historic groups we originally considered) has suffered greatly, almost attaining a "professional" level, which elevates the costs exponentially. As a member of the FSRCC I often voted to keep costs down when new technologies were proposed. Most often I was shot down.If they can't, or the competitors are priced out, the trend hurts the sport. I find this well illustrated in SCCA now, and while it's not a matter of "angst," but rather one of genuine concern for the future vitality of a sport I love. Affording one's passions is evermore often a demand more so than a choice.
I totally feel your pain here. A night in a 1950s motel in Carmel Valley costs $300 a night during the Historics, yet the base room rate is about $115 a night. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Abominable practices, but everyone gets greedy.I have a photo client and buddy running Lola F5000 cars out of New Zealand, and we wanted to meet him at Laguna in 2018, then realized I wasn't about to spend a Grand on a campsite and tickets, and this is part of the issue.
More's the pity.I've loved this sport since I was 35 months old and am now 59 (years, Ha). My arguments aren't just about me -- they are on behalf of common families not being able to even witness certain events like I was raised on, and that is spreading.
In this we agree completely.The solution is more complex, of course, and I stand convinced one doesn't exist. All I want is for blue collar generations that follow ours to be able to stand trackside, though they sure still can at oval races, and I fear those days are all but gone in road racing.
.
If you are in the vicinity of Sonoma the weekend after Memorial Day I'll be glad to put you on my crew list.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
There are few better things in communication than starting at odds, and finishing with mutual understanding. Well done.
Your offer is most appreciated, if not surprising. Thank You. We travel full-time in a VW Westfalia in rebuilding our lives and my art business after a malpracticed stroke suffered by my wife at 43. I raise this to say we can be wherever we want to be, but are very committed to a summer of backpacking in Colorado after missing most of the last two years due to totaling our prior bus avoiding a deer in Oregon in late 2018.
This I mention for being mostly on-topic, because our love of racing found us in Oregon only to meet a young American driver I was entertaining doing some PR for, a meeting we cancelled when learning a RV site at Portland was over $1,000. We changed our minds at the last minute, turned west instead of north, and crashed literally ten minutes later. Talk about fate, and outcomes based entirely around love of racing and pricy events! (normal campsites were sold out)
I'm not a crasher, next time it'll be venison for all.
We're now pushing 60 and feel the clock running, both in backpacking, and in our considering cashing some retirement stock out to race ourselves (we've won five karting titles in Colorado but have yet to progress further), in SCCA or possibly vintage. Therein lies our choice, and partly my opinions on current racing affairs, and for this year the call of the wild takes priority. My wife's recovery from 45% brain damage to adventurer again is a one in a thousand story, one which I intend to soon pen, if not screenplay, to benefit other survivors that it * can* be done -- but first I need to get my photo work done that spawned from our climbing passions to start with, and then find a place to write that hasn't four wheels under it.
While I hesitate appearing to PR here, our temporary site says more than I can in the context of our discussion:
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/about
Sorry to wander, I try to keep these things offline but sometimes simply cannot. Such are the risks of passion, and giving a damn about things around us -- and for us all.
Thanks Again, Charles. I get your drift now and realize you're in this for all the right reasons -- the same reasons that drew me in and kept me in my entire life. Please enjoy the hell out of every moment, for as long as you possibly can.
We, too hope to shake your hand at a race sometime. We may end up at Road America in July, but it's unlikely we'll de-prioritize our hiking after the longest time away since 1979.
Your photography is amazing!
is this event
still on????
Sears Point
To my knowledge nothing is on at the track probably till June at least
Postponed and rescheduled for Sept 4-6, 2020.
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