Considering Buying new Honda conversion for 2001 Van Diemen
I may be acquiring a 2001 VD FC rolling chassis to convert to FF. Trying to decide whether to run a Ford or A Honda. Looking for advice on installation labor and the overall cost of one compared to the other and also to know if the kit Honda offers for the 99 Van Diemen is complete with all the major parts needed. Their description online isn't much.
Thanks very much for your thoughts!
Skip
The more often and the longer you intend to race the more sense the Honda makes. Even the Honda-haters that will chime in with "yes but, you can buy a used Kent for $3500 and allocate $150/weekend towards a rebuild" will secretly admit to themselves that if they were starting from scratch, they would go Honda.Originally Posted by Skip Weld
But can you really find a good competitive Ford for 3500 anymore. I would think it could be twice that for a good fresh one.
Am I off the mark on that? I hope I am!
I've had a RF98 F2000->Kent->Honda for two years now, and you know what I've done to the engine?
Nothing other than change the oil.
Go Honda.
Kent costs
I just bought a car with a Kent and the invoice for the recently done engine was $6800. The pistons alone were $700
Hybels
How far are you wiling to tow the car to enter an event and who are those events with? The events you want to enter the car in may help you make a decision. In my area the choice would be pretty simple, there are already 3 other cars like yours running Kents.
What Richard posted above is a price you could expect on a rebuild that included replacing a few parts.
If you opt for Honda, I think Greg Rice was advertising a Honda for sale. He may also be a person that has some info for you about mounting either engine in this model car
Last edited by CGOffroad; 12.05.19 at 1:27 AM.
Nope. I didn't say a good competitive Ford for $3500, I said a used one. . . one in need of a $4000 rebuild and will still have a mediocre carb, intake, head and exhaust.
I bought a honda because I did not want to be fiddling with the motor and other stuff. I paid more but when I decide to sell I'll get most of my money back with any luck.
Skip is quite capable of doing his own conversion. And FF is very strong in his area, although there are some very fast kents there. If you are only going to race occasionally, and already own a kent, it would be more of a decision, but if you plan to race regularly, and are starting with a roller, then I think the FIT is a no-brainer. As long as you keep coolant in it, it will just run and run.
While yes, I do have a Fit core for sale, as I understand it, if you buy the complete VD HPD package, the engine core is virtually free. I know that sounds stupid when considering the big pricetag, but the price goes up if you start picking and choosing the smaller kits and components.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I started from scratch and went with a kent... does that make me weird?
the costs for configuring the car for a kent depends on if the car was a Zetec or Pinto powered FC. you need a clutch slave cylinder (really just the piston which is larger on the kent) oil pan, front engine mounts, flywheel and clutch, and changes to the cooling system to hook up the kent. If you have the starter and it was a zetec powered car, you need to change the pinion.
that's about all you need to install a kent
There is no reason, in my opinion, to pick the Ford if you are starting from zero. The Honda is better in every aspect.
You can buy a VD with a Honda for under $30k. Depending how much you can sell off the FC bits for, it might not be worth converting. I'd be very interested to hear your experience when you are done. I'd think someone who does it themselves, if they get good money for the FC parts, could be close to breaking even on the cost and have a car they know every inch of.
Weird? No. It's quite common for people to avoid short term pain at the expense of long term pleasure.
Going with a Honda will require praying to the wiring gods for a good harness...
I am not a rabid kent or honda fan, but his may help. I pay about $2,500 every 2 years [12 weekends] and Butler's rebuilds seem to hold up just fine. I recently went from 3rd to 2nd, when I wanted 4th, and over-reved to 7,900 and it still held together. Between rebuilds, I change oil. That's really about all I do [and all I know how to do, in terms of engine work] As for the Honda, most of the mechanically-caused missed laps I have seen in the last few years were on Hondas, with bad wiring harnesses, sensors not working right, etc. It's the same reason that higher priced Mercedes cars have decreased reliability over the cheaper models; Fewer electronic whizzers to fail. If you are like me, and too old to price out a big bill for a Honda conversion, then it's a no-brainer. [$2,500 x 4 means I'd have to race a Fit, without rebuilds, for 8 years to break even if the cost of conversion was $10,000, but at last check it was more. And I'd be willing to bet that the guys in F1600 Pro are not going 8 years between rebuilds] As for "recovering your money", there are 2 Swift DB-1s for sale right now at give away prices, and they are both un-sold at last check. Competitors are aging out. I wouldn't count on strong sales in the coming years. If you plan on racing long enough to make up the cost in "savings", real or imagined, I am still not convinced the change is worth the laps lost "fixing " the Honda so it fits your car, and dealing with all the teething problems, but that is a personal choice. I think Honda has been good for FF overall, and the new cars all seem to be built for the Fit engine, so to some extent that helps in later re-sale, but I can't say I'd expect it to cover the cost. I have been told by some that the low-end power in a Fit makes it a much better engine for racing, but JR 2 has both, knows the difference, and races a Kent.
So, that should add layers of confusion, and likely lots of comments, but in the end, have fun with whichever you choose!
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Using your numbers you would have broken even 2 years ago if you converted to a Fit when it was first approved.
Your engine rebuild costs are averaging about $200/weekend. Most club racers won't do 50 weekends in 10 years, but there are some that do so in less than 5.
As to the maintenance headaches and lost laps, I'd bet less time is spent replacing the occasional failed sensor than points/petronix units, fiddling with emulsion tubes, adjusting float heights, reseting the timing, changing jets, or R&R engine and driving to trucking company dock to ship and pick up.
I also wanted the alternator and starter on board offered with the honda.
The basic Kent motor is rugged and simple. I had ancillary issues: Starter off and on at least 6 times before getting it to clock correctly, temp sensor mounted in wrong place so not reading accurately, Mixed up tubes for crankcase ventilation and running over my booster battery.
Then I had some problems caused by my own ignorance, like catching the engine on fire when trying to start it on a cold morning using ether and losing a wheel due to a broken cv joint. That last one is unaffected by engine choice.
But on a positive note I had some other things that I caught up on and got pretty well set up so that when I sold it it was handling very nicely. I also shaved off about 30# in weight on the car, not me.
In the end it was so much fun to drive that I came back and bought another after exploring the high horsepower world of D mod and XP.
I called up a top Kent engine builder a few months ago to check progress on a Kent engine build we had there. He said that our engine was next in line for the dyno, right behind a Kent that came in just before ours for a refresh with just over 100 hours on it. I chuckled, he chuckled........we both chuckled together.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Skip
A top level Kent will run you around 6 -8K. I don’t know how much a Honda conversion currently runs, but I paid 12K each for the 2 I did when they were first available. My rebuilds with Rollin run around 3K. I typically get a full season of hard running. The motor I am currently running has been fully cryoed so may get more time out of that one (thanks Mike).
i was one of the first to convert to Honda. Played all the bs games with the restricters. Finally decided to convert back to Kent due to multitude of electrical problems in my car, plus I used that engine in the piper with only minimal sensor issues (seems my “electric personality” creates havoc with sensors and I am not knowledable enough to find more power with the honda). Having said that, the other car I converted was Morgan’s FC. It still has the original engine that was blueprinted by QS. It has had very few issues, especially considering the 1000’s of miles it has been run. Granted it is long over due for a rebuild but still makes damn near every lap every session.
IMO, it depends on what you are really wanting. If you want a plug and play, very little maintenance, power then the Honda is the way to go. If you want a little more freedom and possibly more power, with the caveat that it requires more maintenance and attention, the Kent is the way to go. Personally, I am a tinkerer and get as much enjoyment out of the mechanical aspect as the actual racing.
The other thing to keep in mind is how feasible it is to unload the FC parts. Not that many pintos competing. Might have a better market with the vintage S2000 guys. Maybe someone will chime in with the validity of selling them the motor.
John
My dad has Hondas and I have Kents so I have recent and relevant experience with both. When Honda's run correctly they are great and can run forever. Sometimes though, you aren't so lucky and have to replace sensors, sometimes all of them to track down a problem and sometimes the wiring harnesses or fuel pumps (on my dads car that is inside the fuel tower in the fuel cell) can be a PITA and need replacing.
Also, the Kent is NOT some highly tuned precision motor that goes bad super quick. BOTH of my Kents have more power and torque (from the same dyno) as my dad's Honda's. My main motor that I use has 40 days on track with it and still has within 1 hp of when it was fully fresh. I don't touch the jetting, adjust valves, or mess with timing. YMMV but don't let the decision of which engine to run psych you out. The end result is that it probably won't change your finishing position.
I had a SCAT crankshaft fail in my Club Ford. By the time I got a good reliable Kent built from the parts I had left I wish I had used that money to buy a Honda conversion.
I have had a couple of cylinder heads fail on the Hondas, that let out the water, nothing is perfect. and costs can be similar. I am not a honda proponent or hater, I have 6 cars with them, and 5 with Kents that we run on a regular basis. Just saying they both have their pros and cons.
For reasons mostly unrelated to engine reliability, cost, and performance I am switching to a Honda powered car (chassis change and all). But I can say that after a season of running well against late model Hondas in my tweener Kent I'm a bit worried I'm going backwards in HP.
Brandon L. #96 FF
-PM me for RF85/86 bellhousing
Whew! Glad we cleared all that up!
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Confirmation bias.
Which way was I biased? [I don't know.]
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
But we summarized 9 years of hostility into 26 fairly tame posts.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Even though my statement immediately followed yours, I was not speaking of you. But to answer your question, it seems you are biased towards the Ford but understand why others might choose the Honda.
I was briefly in FF (2 years) and really liked my Honda (in a Swift DB-3).
The biggest attractions were EFI, an alternator (no jump battery!) and a brand new engine.
Another benefit was more information available to a data logger, and I felt like there was very good support from HPD since they were trying to get people onboard at the time.
My 2 years were great. I can't remember having any problems, and did nothing more than the most basic maintenance. I doubt I would have considered FF without the Honda.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
I think it all depends on your mentality; if you have a 'Honda Civic' approach to racing ie; you just want to go to the track, race and go home again with little involvement then Formula F is fine.
If however you wish to 'soak' yourself in 50 years of auto racing history, go to the track, tinker with the car, bs with a bunch of gear heads then put a Kent in your car!
I love the Honda product, I've raced them for 30 years (CRX, Civic) but I'll never have one of those engines in my Formula Ford.
I went to Indianapolis (IMS) in 2017 for the SVRA Formula Ford 50th, a once on a life time atmosphere, incomparable race meeting in an iconic location.
I raced with Crossflow group in Portland last year and then went to Road America for the VSCDA Formula Ford 50th (180 Kent engined cars there), you can't have any more fun than that!
Whatever you choose, have fun and good luck with your racing.
I have driven both in the last year with the same chassis.
Power:
The Honda is about .4 tenths faster at tracks like Sebring and Roebling while it is the opposite for the Ford at Homestead and Daytona.
But if your someone who is only going to race for fun, the small gain/loss in time doesn't make a difference.
Reliability:
If you get a good honda you won't have many problems. Beware though, if a problem does occur - there is a good chance it might take a while to fix.
The Ford actually has good longevity as long as you do basic maintainance and don't abuse it on the shifts.
Summurary:
I prefer the Honda since we have had such good luck with it. At the track we just put gas in it and go, while with the Ford we are changing jets and checking the timing.
I think the biggest factor should be your budget. If you have the extra cash buy a Honda, if not buy a Ford.
In the end both engines will work out fine.
I hope to see you on the track soon
Good luck with your endeavours
Jonathan
All that time you aren't spending dorking around with ignition and carb tuning on the kent you can be dorking around with suspension and alignment settings on your FFit with a motor that will run just as well as it did when you came off the track the last time.
I have not driven a Honda. I used to own a 550 Supersport though, and that was fun....
My VD won't be faster/slower with either a Kent or a Honda. The single biggest thing holding it back is driver talent. It seems unsolvable, but I keep trying......
My Kent had probably 12 weekends on it, and I took it in this fall for a refresh not because it showed signs of needing it (far from it! The damn thing seemed to get better and better the longer I ran it!) but because I thought I "should". With a Honda, you could skip that nonsense.
I do argue with the perceived "day to day" hassle of the Kent. Wanna simplify Kent ownership and maximize time available for dorking around on other stuff? Here you go:
- Vibration-isolated electric fuel pump. Cripes, you can buy them at Tractor Supply if needed in pinch!
- Avgas
- Pertronix. Throw it all away. Go full Bosch mechanical, or Lucas. Check points like 2 x a season. Problem solved
- I have not used a booster battery in YEARS. High quality dry cell is all you need. Period. No battery to run over, less wiring
- Use your electrical fuel pump to fill the float bowls before any transport. Voila, no broken floats, never have had to adjust them again
- Fog the motor at the end of each weekend. I just learned this recently
- Get a decent battery charger. Yes, Princess, I plumped for a good one, finally!
In my experience, the Kent is pretty easy...
cheers
b
At the risk of firing up the rabidly pro-honda or pro-kent, I don't really get the hostility. I don't really care which motor you have in your car, as long as you bring it out and race it. I don't even care which motor I have in MY car, for that matter. If the Christmas elves pulled an engine swap on my Swift, and I found a Fit where my Kent used to be, I'd ...take it out and race it! Why not?
[I actually didn't much care for the 50th at Road America excluding the Honda, and even though I drive a Ford, that was one of the main reasons I chose not to go.]
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
FF
At the risk of once more being bashed as a Honda hater, how long will Honda keep supplying the FF specific parts for the conversions? And Daryl, after reading the FF Honda Conversions topic on this Forum it appears that the Fit Engines do actually have problems on occasion.
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
I think after 9 years the dust has pretty much settled on the Ford/ Honda debate. I think for the most part, everybody is happy including the 14 people at the Runoffs and the 30 to 45 at the Vintage races.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Occasionally a man bites dog.
Too bad - Road America was outstanding!
I understand your point though, and if Honda throws their own 50th, I will probably decline to go.
cheers,
bt
I hope I'm still racing in 40 years for Honda's 50th!Too bad - Road America was outstanding!
I understand your point though, and if Honda throws their own 50th, I will probably decline to go.
cheers,
bt
Quite fascinating that people try and have a civil discussion and help an Apexspeed member, and those same core group of Honda-haters have to start with the cheap shops. Having such an inferiority complex must be a tough way to go through life. Lots of cars, driven by your friends, and you still feel the need to take shots at other people having a good time doing their own thing.
It makes me very sad that a small group of people put so much negativity into segregating what should be one large group of happy racers.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Uh, cheap shots? Ya don't say...
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