Looking to go Vee

[Bardahl77]

Hey folks! I'm an old time fella who is looking to jump back into racing and FV seems the most cost-effective method (other than IT, but I want a real race car!). Since I graduated from quarter midgets decades ago, I've come and gone in autocross, vintage, LeMons and such, but always in regular cars (except for a stint sharing a Crossle FF in Solo 2). I'm up in the Pacific Northwest, and I'm looking for a serviceable FV (preferably with a trailer) in the $5K - $6K range. Just a few questions for the experts:

• Is this a reasonable budget?
• Can I expect a car that is "straight" and with an engine that's at least good for a few events?
• I've rebuilt VWs before, I assume working on a Vee engine is the same
• I drove a Cooper Porsche (Pooper) once, and the shifter felt just like a VW bug. Is an FV box similar?
• With a pre-1976 vintage car, how hard is it to swap motors to keep the fan & gen on the vintage side and off for SCCA? Or even a 1600 for autocross.
• How badly would a vintage chassis get whomped in a Regional SCCA event? Is it worth trying?
• How do vees really handle? Sharp, forgiving, communicative, numb, neck bending?
• How much black magic is in setup, compared to, say, a Crossle FF? Easy to learn?

Kind of a lot to ask in one go, some of the info I find is dated. I just hope I can find a car I can go and check out in person before pulling the trigger, the one's I see right now are 2-day trips.

Thanks to everyone with answers, I hope to get out there soon!

-David

[teamwisconsin]

• Is this a reasonable budget?
• Can I expect a car that is "straight" and with an engine that's at least good for a few events?
• I've rebuilt VWs before, I assume working on a Vee engine is the same
• I drove a Cooper Porsche (Pooper) once, and the shifter felt just like a VW bug. Is an FV box similar?
• With a pre-1976 vintage car, how hard is it to swap motors to keep the fan & gen on the vintage side and off for SCCA? Or even a 1600 for autocross.
• How badly would a vintage chassis get whomped in a Regional SCCA event? Is it worth trying?
• How do vees really handle? Sharp, forgiving, communicative, numb, neck bending?
• How much black magic is in setup, compared to, say, a Crossle FF? Easy to learn?

I raced Vees for over 10 years before going FF racing. I’ll take a swing at answering your queries...

1. I think you’re a little on the low side for a car with a trailer that is going to give you a couple of good weekends right out of the box. Vees are really cheap to run and own, but that also means that they don’t always get the love and affection of a car that costs a little more. I know that sounds backwards but the easiest way to explain this phenomenon is: if a car is worth $100k, a guy won’t flinch spending $2500 on basic care and feeding. But if a car is only worth $10000.... probably not. Long story short, if you raise that budget by a couple thou, your options get much better. I’d think you could probably find something decent for 8-9k.
2. See #1
3. Vee engines aren’t anything crazy inside. If you have rebuilt VW engines before and you can follow the rules, there’s no reason you couldn’t build a decent running engine.
4. The shifting in a Vee largely depends on the design of the linkage. I’ve seen cable shifters someone put in a Caldwell D13 that were positively the worst thing I’ve ever shifted, to the linkage in my last Citation that was actually pretty nice. You only use 3rd and 4th in a Vee once you get rolling, so it’s not that big of a deal.
5. Never worked on a fan shroud car so I can’t answer that one
6. I think any Vee, well driven, has a chance in a regional these days. You’re located in the PNW and I don’t think they have very strong Vee fields regionally so I think competitiveness isn’t really that important. Just show up and have fun!
7. They handle... kind of like a really fast lawn tractor. They are awesome compared to just about anything with doors. But I always said the fun of running a Vee is the racing. Driving them isn’t that magical, but the racing (especially when you get in a decent size pack of cars) is really a hoot.
8. Not much to setup. Especially if you are talking a vintage vee, there are some idiosyncrasies about working with a z-bar. If it’s a zero roll car, most of the handling adjustments are related to rear camber and droop.

Jump on in, the waters fine...

[HB280ZT]

David,


To get into FV 5K-6K is ok if you want a car that you need to work on quit a bit before you race. Now for something race ready (which they never are) you are looking a bit higher, say 9K-10K. Now every now and again you can get something cheaper, it just all depends on timing and availiblity in your region.

Also it looks like you want to vintage and SCCA race your car? To do that will take a bit more work but it can be done. We have a guy on the right coast as they say who runs a Lynx B in vintage and in SCCA and he does very well. But it has taken him a bit to set the car up right so that he can run both with minimal work.


If I were you and since you are on the wrong coast get in touch with Dietmar at Quixote Racing and he will be able to help you out. Plus he can really answer your questions and help you out.

http://www.quixoteracing.com/


R/--
Harry
FV #77 CFR
Brandon, Fl

[t walgamuth]

My only comment about buying race cars is if you pay a little more to buy a nice one you will be able with any luck to get it back whenever you decide to sell.

[Stumpthumper]

I am still pretty new to the vee game and all the way across the country, but I'll share my opinion.

• Is this a reasonable budget? Yes. You may have to be patient but good cars come up in that price range from time to time...but you won't be able to be picky. And by good car, I mean an average, runnable car.
• Can I expect a car that is "straight" and with an engine that's at least good for a few events? Yes. But the trouble is many cars come with the claim to be ready to race and they aren't...sitting a little longer than remembered, etc. Just be a little prepared for that. And as with any car, you'll want to check the bolts and at least the brakes!
• I've rebuilt VWs before, I assume working on a Vee engine is the same. There are many little things the pro builders do, but I know a few guys that do their engine work (aside from machining) by following the GCR and some are very quick.
• I drove a Cooper Porsche (Pooper) once, and the shifter felt just like a VW bug. Is an FV box similar? No idea since the linkages are different. It's not a miata, but as noted above you are only going between 3rd and 4th so it's not that major a player in the game.
• With a pre-1976 vintage car, how hard is it to swap motors to keep the fan & gen on the vintage side and off for SCCA? Or even a 1600 for autocross. Each chassis is different. I can pull my motor and get it back in (wiring and all) in under 2 hours, and I've only done it once. Some cars are quicker, some are way more involved. If you have the time between events a swap can certainly be done even at the track. Would you need to...that I don't know.
• How badly would a vintage chassis get whomped in a Regional SCCA event? Is it worth trying? Again, it sort of depends. In general, a vintage chassis would get whomped. BUT, from what I can tell the chassis itself would only be a little slower, the engine on the other hand would be noticeably slower and the tires are another major factor. A car to consider would be a Caldwell D-13. I believe they are old enough to run vintage but they run well in modern too because they have a zero-roll rear suspension which is what the modern cars typically run (someone can correct me there). Here in the Northeast there are a few that run very competively in modern events. Many people on the forum are very focused on Majors events, but regionally more cars are competitive and, as you know, in racing anything can happen!
• How do vees really handle? Sharp, forgiving, communicative, numb, neck bending? I think neck bending might be a little too strong a word, but they pretty much out grip anything without wings (assuming modern slicks). Handling is predictible and forgiving to a point. You can slide the car, but once you lose it that sucker will snap around! I can comfortably guess that you will like the handling.
• How much black magic is in setup, compared to, say, a Crossle FF? Easy to learan? No idea since i am a midpack runner, but it does seem to be easy to learn and the vee community is excellent and happy to help and teach people.

Best of luck.

[mmi16]

The real question in any race car is - how much to you enjoy working on the car - how much expertise do you have to be working on the car.

If you have the expertise and desire to work on the car, then cheap car is they way to go. If that is not your 'cup of tea' then you need to go after a higher priced more competition ready example (competition ready - is a open ended term with no real defined meaning - each individual's views are different) you will have to go higher up the price tree.

[EricP]

I don't know vees but I'd suggest you spend as much of your budget as possible, stretching it, on as "done" a car as possible. And look CRITICALLY when buying. Find a critical, grumpy, negative friend to look with you so you don't get caught up in Racecar Lust.

It is awfully easy to buy a project or even one that just needs a "little" work and end up spending more than you would have on a done car in the end. Even if you like working on the car. You'll get to work plenty on ANYthing, including a "done" car.

[problemchild]

Reach out to the local Vee racers and those across the border. Don't buy the first one you find, and talk to multiple sellers.

My personal recommendation regarding buying FVs, is that if you cannot trace the engine use back to a rebuild by a respected FV engine builder, do not run the engine without a rebuild. There are basic fundamentals that apply to ACVW engines, FV in particular, that Uncle Jerry, or Ralph next door (who may be brilliant and capable, but ACVW virgins) just cannot do a proper job on their first attempt. The parts are just too valuable to learn on.

A Z-bar Lynx is a good car and would be very competitive in club racing, while killer in vintage.

[Farrout48]

You have not provided your size but formula cars all have different cockpit capacities. If you are average size, not too much of a worry. Best idea is to go to a few races and test out the FVs there.

[alangbaker]

6. I think any Vee, well driven, has a chance in a regional these days. You’re located in the PNW and I don’t think they have very strong Vee fields regionally so I think competitiveness isn’t really that important. Just show up and have fun!

I just thought I'd give a slightly in different perspective to the FV scene in the PNW as I have spent the last 7 years in a workshop next door to a gentleman who ran a large FV rental operation and thus I've gotten to know who's who of FV here in the BC/WA/OR area.

Looking at recent runoffs results, you'll see Dennis Andrade, and both Bob (father) and Quinn (son) Posner, as well my friend, Robbie Arthur, who's 2018 Runoffs was ruined by having a battery post break off.

Not only that, but the gentleman who ran the FV rental operation has been winding things down, and he is looking to sell several of his FVs. Send me a PM and I'll put you in touch.

[crypt0zink]

I race a Vintage Lynx B in the VSCDA (Midwest). Chris Cox/Noble motor.

• Is this a reasonable budget?
  - It's the low end for SCCA FV and Vintage FV
• I've rebuilt VWs before, I assume working on a Vee engine is the same
  - Yes and No, a good current engine from a good builder makes a difference in performance and rebuilds.
• I drove a Cooper Porsche (Pooper) once, and the shifter felt just like a VW bug. Is an FV box similar?
  - If it shifts well in 3rd and 4th your good.
• With a pre-1976 vintage car, how hard is it to swap motors to keep the fan & gen on the vintage side and off for SCCA? Or even a 1600 for autocross.
  - Start by picking a FV racing path and focus on that. You'll find that trying multiple types of FV racing exhausting.
• How badly would a vintage chassis get whomped in a Regional SCCA event? Is it worth trying?
  - I've been curious about this same question, maybe in 2020 I'll try a my vintage LynxB in a SCCA Major with the Fan, Gen and spec Hoosiers.
• How do vees really handle? Sharp, forgiving, communicative, numb, neck bending?
  - The FV is great in the corners and brake zones. It will teach you how to go faster in higher HP cars.
• How much black magic is in setup, compared to, say, a Crossle FF? Easy to learn?
  - My setup hasn't changed in years and works for all tracks I run. Setup isn't a big factor to FV racing.

[pacratt]

• How badly would a vintage chassis get whomped in a Regional SCCA event? Is it worth trying?
  - I've been curious about this same question, maybe in 2020 I'll try a my vintage LynxB in a SCCA Major with the Fan, Gen and spec Hoosiers.

With fan & generator, a vee motor loses about 11 h.p. (about 15% of power)...add less-sticky treaded tires...
Fast lap times (reference):
Blackhawk Farms (2 miles)
1:20-1:22 Majors
1:25-1:27 Vintage
Road America (4 miles)
2:40-2:42 Majors
2:57-2:59 Vintage
Yes...you'd get "whomped".
Glenn

[veeten]

A few years ago I helped Duke Waldrop get his vintage vee up to speed at a very competitive SARRC
regional race at Roebling Road.
He ran up front finishing 3rd to some good local cars.

[crypt0zink]

[/LIST]

Blackhawk Farms (2 miles)
1:20-1:22 Majors
1:25-1:27 Vintage
Road America (4 miles)
2:40-2:42 Majors
2:57-2:59 Vintage
Yes...you'd get "whomped".
Glenn

I've done multiple laps at Blackhawk mid 1:24 in vintage trim with treaded Hoosier, fan and generator. If I switched to the Spec Hoosiers and keep my vintage trim, I'm guessing that drop my time into a competitive SCCA Majors range.

Road America is a whole different animal and max HP is key. In vintage trim my best is 2:53, even with Spec Hoosiers it be back of the grid.

2020 I'm going to try out the Spec Hoosier back to back with the Hoosier TDs.

[pacratt]

I've done multiple laps at Blackhawk mid 1:24 in vintage trim with treaded Hoosier, fan and generator. If I switched to the Spec Hoosiers and keep my vintage trim, I'm guessing that drop my time into a competitive SCCA Majors range.

Road America is a whole different animal and max HP is key. In vintage trim my best is 2:53, even with Spec Hoosiers it be back of the grid.

2020 I'm going to try out the Spec Hoosier back to back with the Hoosier TDs.

Give it a shot, John. But with a fan & generator, I don't think you'll turn Majors' times.
Glenn