Current future status of F1000

[problemchild]

Competing with FRP does NOTHING to add cars to FA, so I don't see how allowing the FB cars that DO chose to remain in SCCA and want to become more competitive in FA hurts their participation.

Because you are now breaking one group of racers (that was too small already) into two groups, and eliminating any chance of crossover or reconciliation.

[Jnovak]

Might just pour gasoline in this fire.
Honda k 20 engine seems to do fine in USF4 and USF3 series.

Bone stock,reliable and powerful.

The F4 engine is normally aspirated and makes 160 hp. The F3 engine is turbocharged and makes 270 hp. The numbers are from HPD.

[bill gillespie]

The F4 engine is normally aspirated and makes 160 hp. The F3 engine is turbocharged and makes 270 hp. The numbers are from HPD.

Jay....the current 2019 number from HPD is 303 hp.....apparently, HPD gets whatever they want for F3.... it’s about 10-14 mph better than a good 016 on the straight.....track dependent.

[Stan Clayton]

Because you are now breaking one group of racers (that was too small already) into two groups, and eliminating any chance of crossover or reconciliation.

I'm not buying the argument that we need to take FRP's interests into account when making decisions about our class rules.

[Bob Wright]

FRP is not dictating the F1000 rules set for the cars running with us. That is up to the group themselves (organized by Jerry and Dustin Hodges) and they so far have chosen to keep the existing rules set. They could collectively change that if they want to.

We simply provide a place to race under SCCA Pro sanctioning while making sure the cars have proper safely tech.

[Thomas Copeland]

FRP is not dictating the F1000 rules set for the cars running with us. That is up to the group themselves (organized by Jerry and Dustin Hodges) and they so far have chosen to keep the existing rules set. They could collectively change that if they want to.

We simply provide a place to race under SCCA Pro sanctioning while making sure the cars have proper safely tech.

The NorthAm series follows the old GCR for F1000 (can't remember which month they use).

[eboucher]

Thread’s a few months old but I feel compelled to respond. I ran FC in 2010 in the San Francisco Region after crewing for Randy Cook in FA for several years. I ran a severely outclassed RF96 mono-shock but still had a fantastic time in the class and ended up doing pretty well. Randy ran an old ‘93 Reynard in FA. That car was 99% work and 1% racing fun. In 2010 FB/F1000 was just coming online and both Randy and I were very excited about the class. It seemed like the perfect answer to near-FA speeds, but with affordable bike power. The cars were, IMHO, the best damn looking OW cars in the paddock, period. They were essentially mini F1 cars with nice downforce levels, great power to weight, modern shifting, etc. etc.

I bailed for a few years due to lack of funds, came back in 2015 and won a divisional B-Spec title, and then bailed again to regroup financially since B-Spec was entering a life support stage at that point. Randy eventually sold the Reynard and moved over to FB and absolutely loved it, coming close to winning the Sonoma Runoffs if I remember correctly. I had plans to get back into the sport in F1000 as soon as financially possible.

I’m finally at that point and ready to come back for good this time. What the hell happened?? FC’s numbers aren’t great, plus what do you run over there? Pinto? Zetec? Mazda? Talk about a class trying to find its identity. FA is basically history (always way too expensive to be competitive anyway so no surprise there). FE numbers, at least here in the West aren’t great, and now you’re coming out of pocket another 20k just to get one converted to FE2, and F1000 has been rolled into FA. SCCA’s always been a political monster but it’s just so sad to see what’s happened to these fantastic open wheel classes, especially F1000. Just ten years ago that was going to be THE open wheel class. If you want to run OW these days and you actually want some competition to run with, it seems FF is really your only option.

Reading through this thread and talking to others I’ve known in the sport for years, all the excitement around the idea of coming back has quickly evaporated. Seems I’m better off spending $500 bucks a weekend for an insane amount of track time in Lemons in a 300+ horsepower Subaru WRX. Completely understand that series isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but when it comes to fun and track time it’s impossible to beat, and it’s not the joke it started out to be. There’s genuine competition now.

Ho hum. What have you done to our beloved wings-and-slicks open wheel classes SCCA? Sounds like we need a new FCCA national sanctioning body!

:-(

Eric Boucher

[S Lathrop]

Eric;
The hay days of F1000, 2007 through maybe 2010 were make possible because the the 1000cc sport bike engines were easy to adapt to cars and they were plentiful both new and with very low mileage. The engines were fragile but when you could get a replacement engine for $2500 to $4000, about the annual maintenance cost of a Kent FF engine, it was economically doable. But the technology of the bike engines "advanced" and getting the newer engines to work in a car was nearly impossible given the complexity of the management systems and the rules for the class. In short cheap engines were gone.

When I was building F1000 cars, they were less expensive to build that a FF or FC and by a bunch. If we could solve the engine management system issues, the costs today would be very attractive. The transmissions alone for a new FF or FC today is well north of $10,000. I have not researched the costs recently but I bet that a current bike engine with very low miles would be half that, and the bike engine comes with a transmission. The trick is to come up with a management system that will work in a car.

As to combining F1000 into FA, you should be thankful that that is what happened. The other option for F1000 was to drop it back to a regional class only and then you would have not been able to race the cars at the same events you had been racing. If in the future, F1000 can build its numbers back up, it can return to a stand alone class as it was. The current situation allows F1000 to race at all the events it was at originally and be in front of the potential buyers if it gets a new start.

Get a good solution to the engine management system and this class can take off again.

[Farrout48]

The NorthAm series follows the old GCR for F1000 (can't remember which month they use). But there is a group of us who aren't running in that NorthAm Series (and have no intention of doing so anytime soon). So we don't care what rules they have. We're looking to improve the competitiveness of our cars where we are planning to run (SCCA). If the SCCA is going to throw us to the Lions least they could do is give us some tools to survive. Even the Romans did that.

Maybe SCCA did attempt to offer some tools to survive with the recent increase to 14.5:1 compression allowed. But in doing so, they said the cars have to meet all of the December 2019 GCR rules. That GCR only refers back to the December 2018 GCR which states:

"B. Engine components (including cylinder heads and blocks) must remain stock, except as specifically permitted in these rules. No material may be removed from any engine component, except as specifically permitted in these rules. Valve jobs are permitted, but the valve seat diameter must not be changed. The competitor must present, on demand, an original factory manual for the specific engine make, model and year to allow compliance verification."

The increase in compression does not seem possible without violating the stock engine components requirement.

[jchracer]

Eric;
The hay days of F1000, 2007 through maybe 2010 were make possible because the the 1000cc sport bike engines were easy to adapt to cars and they were plentiful both new and with very low mileage. The engines were fragile but when you could get a replacement engine for $2500 to $4000, about the annual maintenance cost of a Kent FF engine, it was economically doable. But the technology of the bike engines "advanced" and getting the newer engines to work in a car was nearly impossible given the complexity of the management systems and the rules for the class. In short cheap engines were gone.

When I was building F1000 cars, they were less expensive to build that a FF or FC and by a bunch. If we could solve the engine management system issues, the costs today would be very attractive. The transmissions alone for a new FF or FC today is well north of $10,000. I have not researched the costs recently but I bet that a current bike engine with very low miles would be half that, and the bike engine comes with a transmission. The trick is to come up with a management system that will work in a car.

As to combining F1000 into FA, you should be thankful that that is what happened. The other option for F1000 was to drop it back to a regional class only and then you would have not been able to race the cars at the same events you had been racing. If in the future, F1000 can build its numbers back up, it can return to a stand alone class as it was. The current situation allows F1000 to race at all the events it was at originally and be in front of the potential buyers if it gets a new start.

Get a good solution to the engine management system and this class can take off again.

Agreed. A spec aftermarket ECU could be had for around $500 that would do the job just fine. Ain't gunna happen...too much negativity in this class now....sad.

[JakeL]

Aren't all of the newer 2017-2019 Kawi and Suzuki engines already in cars and being used with success at this point? From having talked to George and others on the west coast, seems like this isn't such a big problem anyway.

The interesting feedback is that they seem to be reaching some limits - the newer motors are not the quantum leaps that we saw from 01 to 06 to 08 and 11 and so on - George said the newest motors seem to make basically the same power on the dyno as the 8-10 year old gen 4 Kawis do.

All I know is that I cannot wait to drive mine again. What a thrill.

-Jake

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe SCCA did attempt to offer some tools to survive with the recent increase to 14.5:1 compression allowed. But in doing so, they said the cars have to meet all of the December 2019 GCR rules.

The increase in compression does not seem possible without violating the stock engine components requirement.

No sir.

The engine table says: "Motorcycle-based 4-cycleup to 1000cc, maximum compression ratio 14.5:1; otherwise, current FA engine rules apply. "

-and-
Car must comply with December 2019 GCR Formula 1000 (FB) Preparation Rules except as modified by this spec line. The CRB may require the use of Flat Plate Intake Restrictors at any time."


Otherwise and except don't mean all. There's a whole lot you can/may, and likely would need to do to that 1000cc MC engine package to make it competitive in FA at the top events. Stock and P2 level prep isn't going to cut it.

[Daryl DeArman]

The interesting feedback is that they seem to be reaching some limits - the newer motors are not the quantum leaps that we saw from 01 to 06 to 08 and 11 and so on - George said the newest motors seem to make basically the same power on the dyno as the 8-10 year old gen 4 Kawis do.

All I know is that I cannot wait to drive mine again. What a thrill.

-Jake

Because the intended market has other options, supercharged and larger displacement. There's no need for the factories to continue to develop the 1L bikes for the street market. What wins on Sunday doesn't sell on Monday anymore. The market will just buy the H2R or the Hayabusa.

[S Lathrop]

I don't think that a F1000 will ever be competitive with good FA. Instead I think that F1000 should strive to have a very cost effective, high performance formula car at a very reasonable cost, which we have had in the past.. If the newer engines can be used as we did with in the 06-08 period, maybe there is hope for the class.

If F1000 can get to the point that they can muster 20 or more cars at any popular track, then the class will be back to where it was headed at one time.

My years as a race engineer in Indy Lights, leads me to believe that F1000 can become the best training ground for future Indy car drivers in the world. And a great place for the top of the amateur/hobbyist drivers to practice their skills.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't think that a F1000 will ever be competitive with good FA.

Perhaps true, but I don't believe that would be the case given enough desire/budget. Though that's not the point of my comments above.

Instead I think that F1000 should strive to have a very cost effective, high performance formula car at a very reasonable cost, which we have had in the past.. If the newer engines can be used as we did with in the 06-08 period, maybe there is hope for the class.

If F1000 can get to the point that they can muster 20 or more cars at any popular track, then the class will be back to where it was headed at one time.

Has that cow not left the barn? Maybe I am imagining so, but I thought I read somewhere a statement from the SCCA regarding no desire to allow any FX cars to go back to their prior single class National/Major status.

My years as a race engineer in Indy Lights, leads me to believe that F1000 can become the best training ground for future Indy car drivers in the world. And a great place for the top of the amateur/hobbyist drivers to practice their skills.

Perhaps, but I believe those days are gone as well. The SCCA should not be anywhere on an aspiring Indy drivers' radar. Given the backing that an Indy ride takes, talent is secondary. Folks will go right from the top level of karting to a hundred hours on a SIM and be up to speed pretty quickly. The engineers will be tasked with nailing the setup with very little valuable feedback from the driver.

[Farrout48]

No sir.

The engine table says: "Motorcycle-based 4-cycleup to 1000cc, maximum compression ratio 14.5:1; otherwise, current FA engine rules apply. "

-and-
Car must comply with December 2019 GCR Formula 1000 (FB) Preparation Rules except as modified by this spec line. The CRB may require the use of Flat Plate Intake Restrictors at any time."


Otherwise and except don't mean all. There's a whole lot you can/may, and likely would need to do to that 1000cc MC engine package to make it competitive in FA at the top events. Stock and P2 level prep isn't going to cut it.

Is it your interpretation that engines can be modified in any way necessary to meet the 14.5:1 compression?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

My years as a race engineer in Indy Lights, leads me to believe that F1000 can become the best training ground for future Indy car drivers in the world. And a great place for the top of the amateur/hobbyist drivers to practice their skills.

Perhaps, but I believe those days are gone as well. The SCCA should not be anywhere on an aspiring Indy drivers' radar. Given the backing that an Indy ride takes, talent is secondary. Folks will go right from the top level of karting to a hundred hours on a SIM and be up to speed pretty quickly. The engineers will be tasked with nailing the setup with very little valuable feedback from the driver.

Aspiring career drivers aren't staying in any class for any amount of time to either entitle them to have an opinion or to design a class around their participation.

I see young 'career' drivers come and go in FC. Typically 1 year, 2 max. They typically arrive and drive.
There are 1 or 2 of these drivers every year. Finishers 2 through 10 have been running the class for 5+ years and are 40+.

Let's get real. FB, FC, FF are no longer training grounds or part of the 'ladder' or 'road to...'

They are amateur/hobbyist classes. So making them 'attractive' to developing drivers is a folly.

I know some marketing material promotes the 'ladder' appeal and the past participation of now pro drivers, but that too is a folly and I'm concerned is actually drives away potential drivers.

Let's get real again. The market is 40+. They have the funds and they will participate for years.

That creates stability.

[Stan Clayton]

Is it your interpretation that engines can be modified in any way necessary to meet the 14.5:1 compression?

You didn't ask me, Craig, but that is precisely my interpretation. Another way of looking at that note in the FA engine table is to read it as, "F-1000 engines may be modified per the FA engine rules. Max CR is 14.5:1."

Anyone disagree?

PS - this note doesn't apply to engines in P2.

[Daryl DeArman]

Is it your interpretation that engines can be modified in any way necessary to meet the 14.5:1 compression?

They may be modified in any way that the FA engine rules allow, provided their displacement doesn't exceed 1000cc and their compression ratio doesn't exceed 14.5:1.


That's any bore, any stroke, any crankshaft, any pistons, any piston pins, any cams, any head gasket, any con-rods of the same basic material. Valves are unrestricted in size and material, any fuel injection, any intake. . . the list of possibilities is long.

If someone had the desire and previous resources of say a Scott Tucker, you could end up a long ways away from a typical FB build.

Keep in mind, you go too fast and they'll castrate that combination with restrictors, so only go as fast as you need to. Also modify your TPS output to the SCCA collected data aq. device to read 100% anytime the throttle is over 85% and multiply all other TPS signals by 1.1.

[Stan Clayton]

I’m finally at that point and ready to come back for good this time. What the hell happened?? FC’s numbers aren’t great, plus what do you run over there? Pinto? Zetec? Mazda? Talk about a class trying to find its identity. FA is basically history (always way too expensive to be competitive anyway so no surprise there). FE numbers, at least here in the West aren’t great, and now you’re coming out of pocket another 20k just to get one converted to FE2, and F1000 has been rolled into FA. SCCA’s always been a political monster but it’s just so sad to see what’s happened to these fantastic open wheel classes, especially F1000. Just ten years ago that was going to be THE open wheel class. If you want to run OW these days and you actually want some competition to run with, it seems FF is really your only option.

Reading through this thread and talking to others I’ve known in the sport for years, all the excitement around the idea of coming back has quickly evaporated. Seems I’m better off spending $500 bucks a weekend for an insane amount of track time in Lemons in a 300+ horsepower Subaru WRX. Completely understand that series isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but when it comes to fun and track time it’s impossible to beat, and it’s not the joke it started out to be. There’s genuine competition now.

Ho hum. What have you done to our beloved wings-and-slicks open wheel classes SCCA? Sounds like we need a new FCCA national sanctioning body!

:-(

Eric Boucher

If I may coin a new variation on Hanlon's razor, "Never ascribe to political monster that which is adequately explained by technological progress." By way of explanation, Ford Motorsports stopped casting new Pinto engine parts in the early 90's, with the result that by about 15 years later there were no longer sufficient parts to support the needs of the FC class. That resulted in the CRB bringing on the Ford Zetec engine to augment, and eventually largely replace the Pinto.

A similar situation existed within FE. The particular version of the 2.3 MZR used in the early FEs was discontinued years ago by Ford and Mazda, and became scarce even in junkyards, so to keep the cars viable SCCA worked with Mazda to identify an engine that would be available for years to come. Hence the engine change. IIRC, the gearbox was more a question of Elite's design flaws and quality control issues. Even the racers were unhappy with the old gearbox, and largely supported the Sadev conversion program. Not everyone, of course, but now the cars are fresh, reliable, and ready to race for years to come.

[provamo]

no horse in this race but "aspiring" drivers must be along the road to INDY, sorry

[Steve Demeter]

I am not at all knowledgeable, but it would seem to me that a common ECU map could be developed and used rather cheaply. Sort of like Ztec in FC. Not sure if that would help or not. It seems to me that an EMS should work as long as it is for the same number of cylinders with the same sensors as it was designed for Like I said not at all knowledgeable. Emphasis on the first and last sentences.

[david oleary]

no horse in this race but "aspiring" drivers must be along the road to INDY, sorry

Maybe i am missing something but i would like more information
on the FB to FA engine, with the 14.5 CR rule you have to change parts
inside the motors, rods, pistons, and to be able to competitive maybe cams and
machine work, so how does the line about follow 2019 FB rules apply???

What am i missing??? is a P2 motor now legal in FA??
even a 07-08 GSXR is only around 195 to 200 hp.

i would like to race in FA again, the last time i could afford FA was in a RT5 SV,
after that the cost of the FA class got crazy!!!!!

[lmpdesigner]

Can be done but requires a bit of time on the dyno with any and all engines, even if a common ECU. Nothing big deal here but who pays for it all?

Any EU builder will need to be able to get a return on his investment/time.So if F1000 does not have a lot of cars running and there are 2-3 or 4 motors in that group then there is little money in it for any one to do an ECU.

Technicalyly there is no issue.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

no horse in this race but "aspiring" drivers must be along the road to INDY, sorry

Not quite getting what you are saying.

Are you saying we must provide a 'road to indy' within SCCA classes?

[lmpdesigner]

I was also confused by Provamo's text. Made no sense to me either.

Not quite getting what you are saying.

Are you saying we must provide a 'road to indy' within SCCA classes?

[Peter Olivola]

Not quite getting what you are saying.

Are you saying we must provide a 'road to indy' within SCCA classes?

He's talking about Dan Andersen's programs.

[lmpdesigner]

Wanna try to explain the statement? Just curious-no disrespect intended.

[Stan Clayton]

Maybe i am missing something but i would like more information on the FB to FA engine, with the 14.5 CR rule you have to change parts inside the motors, rods, pistons, and to be able to competitive maybe cams and machine work, so how does the line about follow 2019 FB rules apply???

The engine table controls the engine preparation separate from the bodywork, aero, etc., which have to remain compliant to the Dec 2019 rules. Just separate them in your mind.

What am i missing??? is a P2 motor now legal in FA?? even a 07-08 GSXR is only around 195 to 200 hp.

Yes, a P2 1-liter engine is now legal in FA. Same for a FB engine or a P1 engine. Max 1 liter and max CR of 14.5:1.

[Peter Olivola]

Wanna try to explain the statement? Just curious-no disrespect intended.

Dan Andersen runs the Road to Indy programs, USF2000, IndyLights & Cooper Tires USF2000 Championship.

[Daryl DeArman]

The engine table controls the engine preparation separate from the bodywork, aero, etc., which have to remain compliant to the Dec 2019 rules. Just separate them in your mind.

Exactly. Take your Dec 2019 FB car and pull the engine. Get out your checkbook and build. . .250HP at 16K sounds good to me if someone else is buyin'

I'd take a nice ZX10RR, bring the bore up to 80mm and have it de-stroked. , Maybe a +3mm big bore in a ZX14R de-stroked to 42mm. Hmmm, perhaps even better yet, nothing on the spec line says it has to be a 4-stroke or production, maybe a YZR500 MotoGP engine brought up to size

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Dan Andersen runs the Road to Indy programs, USF2000, IndyLights & Cooper Tires USF2000 Championship.

So, we agree. There is NO need for SCCA classes to position themselves as driver development classes.
They need to adjust themselves to long term participation.

[S Lathrop]

Perhaps, but I believe those days are gone as well. The SCCA should not be anywhere on an aspiring Indy drivers' radar. Given the backing that an Indy ride takes, talent is secondary. Folks will go right from the top level of karting to a hundred hours on a SIM and be up to speed pretty quickly. The engineers will be tasked with nailing the setup with very little valuable feedback from the driver.

There a couple drivers I have worked with in Indy Lights who are running Indy cars to day. When they retire maybe your statement will be true. But for now I think I am right in my assessment of what it takes to prepare for Indy. One of those drivers started in FV and FF, did FC and then Indy Lights. He brought certain skills he had learned that the spec cars of today do not teach a driver. I have worked with drivers who came out of spec cars and they had a very tough time making the transition to cars that requires a lot of setup work.

One of my favorite sayings is that I can not teach a driver how to tune shock in a car that is going 175 mph. He has to learn that in slower cars. And cars with spec shocks do no allow the driver to learn shock tuning.

At the end of the day, the car has to be made to fit the driver. But if the driver has no idea what is takes to make a car fit him, the engineer can only make guesses and the results will be very spotty.

[Fred Michael]

Dan Andersen runs the Road to Indy programs, USF2000, IndyLights & Cooper Tires USF2000 Championship.

Pretty sure what Provamo was saying is that anyone looking to Indycar needs to be in the Road to Indy classes and nowhere near SCCA

[Peter Olivola]

So, we agree. There is NO need for SCCA classes to position themselves as driver development classes.
They need to adjust themselves to long term participation.

I have no opinion on the subject. I was only explaining what the Road to Indy is.

[Jnovak]

It is my personal opinion that FB made a serious mistake when they expanded and essentially allowed the engine rules too much lattitude!

It is my opinion that the engines should be limited to about 180 hp. They would last a long time and the cars would still be plenty fast!

This would drastically reduce costs and imo would increase participation. Brian and i would be back in a heartbeat!

[Stan Clayton]

It is my personal opinion that FB made a serious mistake when they expanded and essentially allowed the engine rules too much larritude!

Do you have any specifics you can share with us, Jay? My recollection is that the CRB tried to rein in the FB engines several times, only to be shouted down by class members in monumental verbal battles on these and other online pages.

[Mike B]

It is my personal opinion that FB made a serious mistake when they expanded and essentially allowed the engine rules too much larritude!

When did that happen?

[Jnovak]

Do you have any specifics you can share with us, Jay? My recollection is that the CRB tried to rein in the FB engines several times, only to be shouted down by class members in monumental verbal battles on these and other online pages.

You are correct Stan. There were a few like me who wanted restricted development but that was not supported. What i stated in my post was my personal opinion!

[Jnovak]

When did that happen?

When the 2nd ad hoc committee was formed and working there were a few of us that wanted to restrict the newer engines down to the power level of the then dominant Gsxr engine but that was voted down by the committee ! We worked with George Dean to develope the concept but if was voted down by the comittee. It was essentially the same method used in the current F500 class for the 600cc motorcycle engines. Works very well and is super reliable and takes about 15 minutes for tech to check. On the GSXR 600 engine it takes the paak rpm down to about 14500. Thats down from over 16000 rpm!