Double clutch heel and toe

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

I was taught to double clutch when shifting. I am comfortable with it, but presumably there are newer techniques since I training days. Comments?

V/r

Iverson

[Daryl DeArman]

Gents;

I was taught to double clutch when shifting. I am comfortable with it, but presumably there are newer techniques since I training days. Comments?

V/r

Iverson

You aren't driving an ol' Mack truck. There's no need and you are likely wasting/losing time. However, I'm guessing your dog rings last longer than most.

I didn't use the clutch at all on upshifts. A blip of the throttle as quick as you can manage is usually sufficient.

[LenFC11]

I believe I remember on the Hewland website there is an exploration on how they want you to shift.

I only use the clutch to get the car moving. Unecessary to use otherwise

[TimH]

The Hewland website actually has a fairly detailed set of instructions on shifting technique. They oughtta know.

[DaveW]

Gents;

I was taught to double clutch when shifting. I am comfortable with it, but presumably there are newer techniques since I training days. Comments?...

You aren't driving an ol' Mack truck. There's no need and you are likely wasting/losing time. However, I'm guessing your dog rings last longer than most.

I didn't use the clutch at all on upshifts. A blip of the throttle as quick as you can manage is usually sufficient.

I use the clutch for all shifts - I find it saves my old-style CV joints and is easier on all mechanical components than shifting either up or down w/o the clutch.

Normally, I will very briefly lift the throttle and slightly depress the clutch on upshifts. On downshifts, a slightly longer clutch depression and blip the throttle just enough to match revs.

When I'm trying to max out my speed, like when I'm in danger of being passed for a win, I'll power-shift on the upshift- i.e., no throttle lift, but the same procedure on the clutch. This, if done correctly, is faster than shifting w/o the clutch w/o the stress on moving parts (unless one misses the shift...).

[Jamesbe]

Lift on upshift no clutch. Blip on down, no clutch. Honestly feels smoother. It's a dog box, I do the same on my motorbike and it works great, so smooth.



Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Jerry Kehoe]

I'm too old to learn new tricks as I use the clutch both up and down out of habit. Think it works though since I am putting 350lbs of torque through a gearbox designed for 200lbs of torque, same R&P for 8 years, same dog rings for 8 years and same gears, cv joints,etc. Having shifted both ways I am sure it works fine but the above statement seals it for me.

[DaveW]

I use the clutch for all shifts - I find it saves my old-style CV joints and is easier on all mechanical components than shifting either up or down w/o the clutch...

I'm too old to learn new tricks as I use the clutch both up and down out of habit. Think it works though since I am putting 350lbs of torque through a gearbox designed for 200lbs of torque, same R&P for 8 years, same dog rings for 8 years and same gears, cv joints,etc. Having shifted both ways I am sure it works fine but the above statement seals it for me.

Similar durability findings here - same CWP since 1994. Gears last a long time, as do dog rings, but not as long as Jerry's.

[tppj]

Attended Bill Scott’s school at Summit Point in 1976. Bill instructed us to forget about double clutching in lower powered cars. “Get it in gear and get on with the business at hand .”

[TimH]

I felt inspired to visit the Hewland website again:

For successful gear shifting, remember that it is critical to ensure that all mechanical elements between the drivers hand and the dog faces are in good order and properly set. This includes the gear linkage in the chassis. Successful up-shifting (defined as fast and non dog-damaging) will be achieved by fully moving the dog ring as rapidly as possible from one gear to the next, preferably with the engine's driving load removed until the shift is completed. (The opposite is true of a synchromesh gearbox as used in passenger cars, where slow movement helps). It should be remembered that it is not possible to damage the dogs when fully engaged (in gear). The damage can only take place when initiating contact during a shift (the `danger zone`). Therefore this period must be made as short as possible. If a driver moves the gear lever slowly, or if the linkage is not rigid and effective, dog wear will occur. We always recommend lightweight yet solid rod linkage, as opposed to cables. We list below the different methods of up-shifting that are used in racing most commonly. These are in order of shift method preference. Automated (semi-automated): The movement of the dog ring is powered and the engine is cut / re-instated in a co-ordinated manner. Gear-shifts take milliseconds. This system produces zero dog wear when set up well, and highlights the advantages of minimising gear shift time. Manual with Engine Cut: This system is almost as good as an automated one as long as the driver pulls the lever very quickly. A `cheat` version of this is to shift on the engine rev limiter, which can work well. With this system it is especially important to move the lever as fast as possible. Otherwise the engine will be reinstated during partial dog engagement, causing damage. The damage can usually be felt by the driver. Manual: With no assistance from the engine management, the driver must lift off the throttle sufficiently to allow the dog ring to be pulled out of engagement. He should then stay off the throttle long enough to allow the dog ring to engage with the next gear. In practice, the driver can move the gear lever faster than he can move his foot off and back on to the throttle. Therefore the effective method is to apply load to the gear lever with your hand and then lift the throttle foot off and back on to the pedal as fast as physically possible. In lifting your foot, the loaded gear lever will almost involuntarily flick to the next gear before the foot is re-applied to the throttle. Another method is to load the gear lever with your hand, stay flat on the throttle and dab the clutch to release the dog ring. The overall effect on the gear shift is similar to the above method, but clutch wear may become a big issue. The worst method (most destructive and definitely slowest) is to attempt to change gear in a `passenger car / synchromesh` way, i.e. lifting off the throttle, dipping the clutch, moving the gear lever, letting the clutch up and re-instating the throttle. The method causes unnecessary clutch wear, does absolutely nothing to help come out of gear and usually causes dog wear whilst engaging the next gear. This wear is due to several reasons. Firstly, it is impossible for a driver to co-ordinate the complicated sequence of all five physical movements accurately. Consequently the engagement dogs often find themselves engaging whilst the throttle is applied. The lever is usually pulled more slowly as it was not pre-loaded, lengthening the `danger zone`. Successful down-shifting: Similar rules apply regarding speed of shift, with the unloading of the dogs obviously performed in the opposite manner. Whilst braking, the dogs must be unloaded by either touching the throttle pedal or by dipping the clutch. However, one sharp dab of clutch or throttle is appropriate per shift. Continued pressure on either will cause dog damage for different reasons. `Blipping the throttle` just before engagement is advisable if the rev drops between gears are over 1300 rpm, as this will aid engagement and stabilise the car. For ease of downshifting, make the downshifts as late as possible in your braking zone (i.e. at lower road speed), because the rev drops between each gear are then lower. So many drivers make the mistake of downshifting as soon as they begin braking, causing gearbox wear, engine damage and `disruption` to the driving wheels. For any further advice or questions, please contact our Commercial Team, who will be happy to advise.

[FVRacer21]

"Firstly, it is impossible for a driver to co-ordinate the complicated sequence of all five physical movements accurately."

Maybe if you are Alexander Rossi (who might never have driven this type of tranny - or the clutch was sticking...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opzzn9sl1kU

But this guy can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC4qDl4ZMwo

And to cap it off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzLJsxWSLTE

ChrisZ

[teamwisconsin]

The early 49’s all have a ZF synchro box. The later cars went to a Hewland DG. Both the video with Alexander Rossi and Alex MacAllister are ZF cars. Alex always uses the clutch; one of my favorite parts of his onboard videos (like the ones of him driving their Chevron B19) is the way he works through the gearbox. Always nice to watch someone proficiently operating any machinery!

[pooch776]

Alex also appears to have driven the car without the benefit of a tach!

Joe

[Jerry Kehoe]

I stick with my first comments and by the way the same clutch lasted 7 years...…...

[FVRacer21]

One of the variables is how close the ratios are to each other - the closer the ratio, the faster you can shift and the less the clutch becomes important in the shift. For example, if the ratios were the same, you would just have to take pressure off the dogs and then shift.

My question to the FF community, does the Honda tend to have closer or more spread out ratios than the Ford?

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

Not enough difference between the two to make any difference in the preferable way to shift.

If you slightly preload the shifter just before you need to shift as soon as you lift the throttle a fraction of an inch the gear lever will move engaging the next gear and you can mash the pedal again. As Hewland says the hand is quicker than the foot. Even the slower 2-3 shift.

[alangbaker]

One of the variables is how close the ratios are to each other - the closer the ratio, the faster you can shift and the less the clutch becomes important in the shift. For example, if the ratios were the same, you would just have to take pressure off the dogs and then shift.

My question to the FF community, does the Honda tend to have closer or more spread out ratios than the Ford?

Because of the rev limiter, you have to run a top gear on a Honda-powered car that is just a little taller than the one you'd run in a Kent-engined car. When getting a tow, you can let the Kent go slightly higher in RPM than when you're running on your own, but if you pick the correct ratio for running all alone with the Fit engine, then you'll hit the limiter when drafting.

So on that basis the ratios would be (quite marginally) more spread out. I think.

[problemchild]

I share that Hewland document with our new drivers. The LD200 is designed to be used without clutch, so you giving away time, if you are using the clutch. We rarely have rpm drops approaching 1300rpm with the Honda FFs, so I advise my drivers that blipping on downshifts is unnecessary unless skipping gears, I use the Hewland document as a coaching tool because I could not find consistency among good drivers. Their technique literally covers the spectrum, which you will see when looking at video of dozens of drivers.

I find that the kids who have never driven a stickshift car tend to pick it up quicker. No muscle memory to undo.

[DaveW]

I share that Hewland document with our new drivers. The LD200 is designed to be used without clutch, so you giving away time, if you are using the clutch. We rarely have rpm drops approaching 1300rpm with the Honda FFs, so I advise my drivers that blipping on downshifts is unnecessary unless skipping gears, I use the Hewland document as a coaching tool because I could not find consistency among good drivers. Their technique literally covers the spectrum, which you will see when looking at video of dozens of drivers.

I find that the kids who have never driven a stickshift car tend to pick it up quicker. No muscle memory to undo.

When I ran Steve Jenks' second car (LD200 sequential), I did shift w/o the clutch, and found it much easier and smoother than with my Staffs box.

[R. Pare]

Question on a possible difference between the Staffs and the LD200 :

Did Hewland reduce the angle of the sides of the dogs? If I remember correctly, the Staffs and Mk8/9 dog angles were 7 degrees, and sometime in the late '80's, early '90's, the maunfacturers reduced that angle down to something like 4 degrees to reduce bounceback disengagement upon initial engagement of the dogs to each other. The reduced angle also make it easier to disengage the dog ring from the gear.

[ric baribeault]

Clutch only to get moving. Left foot brake. Lift for up shifts and blip for downshifts.

[Mark Walthew]

My first street car had weak synchos for 1st and 2nd so double clutching became the norm when I learned to drive a stick. Decades of that practice on the street and in a racecar so I can't seem to unlearn it. I also skip gears on downshifts, straight from 4 to 1.It may not be the fastest way but it just feels right to me.

[alangbaker]

My first street car had weak synchos for 1st and 2nd so double clutching became the norm when I learned to drive a stick. Decades of that practice on the street and in a racecar so I can't seem to unlearn it. I also skip gears on downshifts, straight from 4 to 1.It may not be the fastest way but it just feels right to me.

I learned double-declutching just for the fun of it when I bought my Miata. I remember going to my first Skip Barber school, when they took us out in a Mazda 3, and the instructor suddenly exclaimed, "Are you double-declutching?"

I'm a skip shifter too. I can't see any point in executing unnecessary shifts in the braking zone.

[Ralph Z.]

Clutch only to get moving. Left foot brake. Lift for up shifts and blip for downshifts.

I too left foot brake. Started left-footing as a kid in karting. Now, here's the confession...My vintage Alexis has that low sloping steering shaft. I actually bring my left foot under the shaft and on the brake pedal after I get moving and keep it there the entire session until pitting. So, I have both feet to the right of the steering shaft. It works. Blip up and down.

Does anyone else do this?

[d962r]

The Hewland website actually has a fairly detailed set of instructions on shifting technique. They oughtta know.

where does one find this on the Hewland website? not the clearest of mud to find anything in that's for sure

[TimH]

where does one find this on the Hewland website? not the clearest of mud to find anything in that's for sure

True. That's why I copied and quoted it.

Here it is: <https://www.hewland.com/faq/>

[jchracer]

Left foot brake, no clutch. If you leave your downshifting to the very end of the braking zone (RPM splits will be much lower between gears), you don't really need to blip the throttle at all while quickly rowing down to the appropriate gear. This is how most drive shifter Karts so the kids moving up to cars from shifter Karts already know this technique.

[FVRacer21]

In the "old days" you would downshift early to use engine braking to save the brakes.

Today (As Carroll Smith would say) you need the brakes balanced for turn braking so you want to wait as long as you can so the downshift does not affect he balance of the car.

Skipping gears is just a matter of blipping the throttle to the right RPM for the new gear (although going down the gears sounds great and again keeps the car balanced). As long as you are braking - you lose no time whatever method you choose - it is only on upshifts do you lose time, however small, by using the clutch.

The skill is in holding the brake pressure while blipping the throttle....

Left foot braking adds another dimension.

ChrisZ

[Robert J. Alder]

Double clutching in the old days with production transmissions (all synchro or no-synchro or maybe 1st gear has no synchro) was a way to get gears spinning together at the right rpms to make the gear changes mesh cleanly. Blipping (aka heal and toe) when done properly (without the clutch) accomplishes the same thing.

I've been of the school of thought that you need to properly blip to change gears anyway and so why rely on the "crutch" (Oops, I meant the "clutch")? My feeling is doing both (blip and use the clutch) is just excess commotion for you left foot. If blipping for gear changes is done well and cleanly, the left foot clutching action is just wasted time and energy. Your left foot on the dead pedal serves to better stabilize your upper body in the cockpit and provide better feedback from the car to you.)

I realize that not everyone agrees with this. Clutching also can't hurt. However, it may serve to cover up some bad blipping and actually unsettle the car when the clutch is let out when blipping isn't spot on. .

Just sayin'. Blip well and your dog box will shift just fine fine. Blip badly and you may need the "crutch."

And for left foot breakers, using your left foot to brake and clutch would seem to be a real trick. Wouldn't know about that. Never was able t left foot brake.

[Jamez]

With the different techniques what is a good shift time in a Formula car with an H pattern shift? Say from full throttle to full throttle, it would be interesting to see the difference between clutchless, clutch and double clutch.

Personally I am clutchless both up and down on my Staffs box and also clutchless on my motorbike. When the timing is just right it feels really easy on the drivetrain and when the timing isn't right......well, that is when using the clutch would be 10000000x better

[Daryl DeArman]

Skipping gears is just a matter of blipping the throttle to the right RPM for the new gear (although going down the gears sounds great and again keeps the car balanced)

I'd suggest that going down through the gears gives you as many opportunities to upset the balance as gears you are rowing through.

If you do all the braking, then select the needed gear for acceleration you have only one opportunity to get it wrong.

The skill is in holding the brake pressure while blipping the throttle....Left foot braking adds another dimension

That's one reason that left foot braking is "better". Your left foot modulates the brake pressure while your right foot matches RPM's for the downshift. The other is that time required to get from the brake to the gas can be much shorter/overlap.

[Rick Iverson]

Clutch only to get moving. Left foot brake. Lift for up shifts and blip for downshifts.

Dude;

Love to try it, sounds intriguing, but at 70, ain’t gunna happen.

V/r

Iverson

[Rick Iverson]

Left foot brake, no clutch. If you leave your downshifting to the very end of the braking zone (RPM splits will be much lower between gears), you don't really need to blip the throttle at all while quickly rowing down to the appropriate gear. This is how most drive shifter Karts so the kids moving up to cars from shifter Karts already know this technique.

Good stuff

[DanW]

Dude;

Love to try it, sounds intriguing, but at 70, ain’t gunna happen.

V/r

Iverson

I'm only 67 but I'm now learning how to do this exactly as jchracer describes. My driving coach recommended it after watching my video. I practice left foot braking while driving on the street every day.

[Garey Guzman]

... I practice left foot braking while driving on the street every day.

The only good thing about an automatic transmission is that I get to constantly practice!
(Actually, my daily right now is an old Leaf so it's not really an auto - but you know what I mean)

[jtaphorn]

I am a returning 60 year old racer to the vintage scene after a 20 year hiatus. My second event of the year, I felt that I needed to relearn left foot breaking and clutchless shifting to develop as a driver. Friday and Saturday were painful and embarrassing as I all too often hit the brakes hard while shifting as muscle memory had me clutching. This was very disconcerting; especially, when shifting from 3rd to 4th. Also, my mental confusion a couple of times had me almost stalling the car as I could not get it in gear due to being at a poor shift RPM. My lap times were embarrassing and I risked being a danger to racers following to close behind. At the conclusion of activities Saturday night, I told my friends that I honestly didn't know if I could make the mental adjustment. I didn't understand if this was an age problem or simply the challenge of breaking years of habit. My everyday driver is a standard shift. The ego pull was strong to retreat back to using the clutch, right foot brake and be quick again. It was even mentally complicated to leave the track for the paddock and shift my left foot back to the clutch so as not to stall if forced to stop behind another car.

Fortunately on Sunday, the mental and muscle coordination began to gel. My next weekend, I only pressed the brake once subconsciously thinking clutch. Now left foot braking and clutchless shifting is normal/natural. I appreciate this thread as my downshifts are not always stellar under threshold breaking and the advice to delay until lower RPMs is one I will engage this weekend.

My aspirations to be a professional driver have long ago faded away. However, my motivation to become the best driver that I can be has not. My learning is that sometimes we need to swallow our pride and be willing to move backward so as to ultimately move further forward and faster.

[FVRacer21]

If you are having problems with left foot braking - spend some time in the local indoor karting track - also why the kids who came up from karts don't have any problems....

ChrisZ

[bob darcey]

I raced karts back in the '60's so already had muscle memory for left foot braking when starting vintage FF in the '90's. Oddly enough though, I right foot brake the daily driver and right foot brake the FF around the paddock. The "trick" I use is that once on the track, I tap the brake pedal with my left foot to "throw the switch" and tap with the right foot before entering the paddock after a session. Works for me.