RunOffs starting soon!

[Lynn]

The race never started and they were told that the two pace laps didn't count. It seems to me that everyone should've been able to make setup changes and start from their original grid positions. But, what do I know. I'm just an autocrosser.

[Daryl DeArman]

Another entry for the Glossary:

(To) Daryl DeArman: v. inf. 1. To find new meanings for well-understood words.

Ha ha. I'd agree with ya, but then we'd both be wrong.

Clear this up for me, and the one or two folks reading that just may agree with me.

When does the Race Session start, and when does the Race start? Are you attempting to argue they are one and the same?

[John Nesbitt]

Ha ha. I'd agree with ya, but then we'd both be wrong.

Clear this up for me, and the one or two folks reading that just may agree with me.

When does the Race Session start, and when does the Race start? Are you attempting to argue they are one and the same?

"Race" is a slightly fuzzy concept in the GCR. Note that the definition of "race" used to exist in the glossary, but no longer does. Some of the problem is that we use the vernacular notion of "race", when, in fact, there are several separate but related concepts in play.

The Administrative Glossary (App. A) does define "Session":

16. Session

A session begins when the first race car in the Race Group exits the grid onto the racing surface and ends

when the last running race car exits the racing surface. If the session is a race, see 6.10.3.A. for time limits.

"Timing" starts at precise moments, according to circumstances. "Scoring" starts at precise moments, according to different circumstances. "Racing", while not defined, starts when the Green flies (or, when the double yellows drop after an FCY).

And I agree that the GCR is not always clear as to meaning and intent. We went through an exercise a few years ago to clean up the Sporting Regulations, and to move administrative matters to the appendices (I chaired the working group). I note with dismay that poor drafting has crept back in since then. Writing strung-together English is a non-trivial task, it seems.

[Zach Rivard]

Before I start my rant, I want to thank the SCCA volunteers for all the work they selflessly put into this year's event. However, I think that first determining the mistakes that were made is the only way we can learn and get better. So here's my view of everything that happened leading up to the green flag.

We were told that the two pace laps did NOT count as race laps. It started to rain at the end of the first pace lap and Jonathan made the right gamble to pit. On the second pace lap, it began to rain hard and I imagine everyone (including myself) was wishing we had pit like Jonathan did. There were no black flags displayed on the second pace lap, only the double yellow and debris flag. I was having radio troubles throughout the week, so I could not hear my crew and assumed the race was going to start as normal being as there were NO black flags displayed. At the end of the second pace lap, I couldn't tell if we were supposed to come in or if everyone choosing to come in on their own. I obviously am glad I did come in because that would have only created another mess that may have further complicated the situation.

Additionally, I also intentionally slowed on the second pace lap to go to the back of the line to pit as others took the green. Under the rules that were applied to Jonathan, I should also have been forced to start last since I didn't hold position on the pace lap AND made changes to the car during the stoppage.

We thought we were allowed to make the changes during the stoppage because we believed the race hadn't started yet, being as we were told the pace laps would not count. On the pit lane, crews began changing tires and some made adjustments as well. I can't speak to the other crews' reasoning, but we truly believed we were allowed to make the changes since the race wasn't supposed to have started. The volunteers and couple stewards were not keeping track of whether or not all the cars were making changes or not. At least one car that started at the front went unpenalized because the stewards did not see his crew pull the rear bar pin that protruded from the back of the car.

Despite all of this, the most frustrating bit was the lack of accountability/communication by those on the pit lane. Either 1) they were telling the truth and they were all merely "messengers", meaning the ones making decisions were up in a building/trailer somewhere or 2) whoever was making decisions did not want to deal with everyone's valid complaints. To top it all off, the laps we were told "would not count", did in fact count and shortened our race to 6 green flag laps. The races were supposed to be 15 laps or 40 minutes. We got neither of those as the winner's total time was 39 minutes and 4 seconds. I really feel bad for Jonathan as they did essentially everything to win the race and were instead penalized more than anyone else. It's disappointing that the event people spent the entire year preparing, practicing, and paying for turned into what it did.

Hopefully this sheds some light on what happened and we can work to make sure it doesn't happen again in the future!

[reidhazelton]

Before I start my rant, I want to thank the SCCA volunteers for all the work they selflessly put into this year's event. However, I think that first determining the mistakes that were made is the only way we can learn and get better. So here's my view of everything that happened leading up to the green flag.

We were told that the two pace laps did NOT count as race laps. It started to rain at the end of the first pace lap and Jonathan made the right gamble to pit. On the second pace lap, it began to rain hard and I imagine everyone (including myself) was wishing we had pit like Jonathan did. There were no black flags displayed on the second pace lap, only the double yellow and debris flag. I was having radio troubles throughout the week, so I could not hear my crew and assumed the race was going to start as normal being as there were NO black flags displayed. At the end of the second pace lap, I couldn't tell if we were supposed to come in or if everyone choosing to come in on their own. I obviously am glad I did come in because that would have only created another mess that may have further complicated the situation.

Additionally, I also intentionally slowed on the second pace lap to go to the back of the line to pit as others took the green. Under the rules that were applied to Jonathan, I should also have been forced to start last since I didn't hold position on the pace lap AND made changes to the car during the stoppage.

We thought we were allowed to make the changes during the stoppage because we believed the race hadn't started yet, being as we were told the pace laps would not count. On the pit lane, crews began changing tires and some made adjustments as well. I can't speak to the other crews' reasoning, but we truly believed we were allowed to make the changes since the race wasn't supposed to have started. The volunteers and couple stewards were not keeping track of whether or not all the cars were making changes or not. At least one car that started at the front went unpenalized because the stewards did not see his crew pull the rear bar pin that protruded from the back of the car.

Despite all of this, the most frustrating bit was the lack of accountability/communication by those on the pit lane. Either 1) they were telling the truth and they were all merely "messengers", meaning the ones making decisions were up in a building/trailer somewhere or 2) whoever was making decisions did not want to deal with everyone's valid complaints. To top it all off, the laps we were told "would not count", did in fact count and shortened our race to 6 green flag laps. The races were supposed to be 15 laps or 40 minutes. We got neither of those as the winner's total time was 39 minutes and 4 seconds. I really feel bad for Jonathan as they did essentially everything to win the race and were instead penalized more than anyone else. It's disappointing that the event people spent the entire year preparing, practicing, and paying for turned into what it did.

Hopefully this sheds some light on what happened and we can work to make sure it doesn't happen again in the future!

Thanks for the firsthand account. What a total disaster. It starts to rain...so what! Lee's made the right call, that's racing. What is the rational for the need for a steward to declare a non-spec class a rain race, stop a race where the pace lap has begun, and pull all the cars back in? I feel for those who put so much into a year only to have that happen.

[Daryl DeArman]

What is the rational for the need for a steward to declare a non-spec class a rain race, stop a race where the pace lap has begun, and pull all the cars back in?

I don't believe we'll ever get an official answer, so I suggest we go back and re-read post #13

Meanwhile, folks will continue to find other places that deliver a better experience (FRP and Vintage is where they've mostly gone) and a grumpy ol' man in Southern California will still be grinding that axe blaming Honda for the health of SCCA FF fields.

[problemchild]

All the side show was moot in the end. Jonathan Kotyk and Tyler O'Connor were the class of the field and were more than 5 seconds per lap faster than the rest. I think our driver, Alex Scaler, had a shot in the dry, but only have driven a FV twice in the rain before, he was no match, and fell off while in 3rd. Derek Ketchie was the best of the rest with a fine 3rd!


Congratulations Jonathan Kotyk and Khill. You were the best FF/F1600 driver and team on the continent in 2019 and a worthy FRP and SCCA Champion!

Please don't let the side show distract from the fact that the two best were half a lap a head of the rest after only 5 laps and settled it between them. In the end, that is all the matters!

[John Robinson II]

So the real question should be, if as Ray states, there were no black flags on the second pace lap, why did the field follow the pace car onto pit lane? Could it be because the “pro tems” saw Lee made the correct call in switching to rain tires? Also why didn’t they throw the green flag even if everyone came down pit lane? Had the stewards already decided to call it a rain race and give everyone the opportunity to change to rains? If yes, then why didn’t they go back to original starting order except for the penalized drivers for changing things other than tires? And why was dropping out of order on pace lap deemed more severe than changing the car during a “red flag” situation. It is my understanding that a red flag was placed at the end of pit lane while they waited for everyone to change tires.

what a total cluster.

it will be interesting to see if and what Greg Rice has to say about this....

i see see he has taken the unusual for him, non political stand. Lol

it he is correct, those 2 definitely appeared to be the class of the field. Hard to say what could have been if Jon hadn’t been hampered by being placed at tail end of field rather than in front of the other “offenders”.

[problemchild]

it will be interesting to see if and what Greg Rice has to say about this....

i see see he has taken the unusual for him, non political stand. Lol

.

I believe the best man and team won. As a sportsman, I believe that is what matters and I think it is a disservice to Jonathan, Tyler, and Derek to make this anything other than a celebration of their achievements.

My " political stand" is that I tell it like I see it. In this case, I did not understand the SCCA rules and made changes to our cars beyond just changing tires. I will accept responsibility for my mistake and am relieved that it did not cost my customers a win or podium. Other teams and drivers are choosing to blame SCCA. I really like Zach and Jonathan Lee but they were 5 and 6.5 seconds per lap off the pace and I believe finished about where they would have regardless of the commotion. Any short-term advantage that Jonathan may have gained would have been eliminated by the inevitable FC caution. IMO, nobody got screwed in the end and it all worked out to the most fair result. Tyler let SCCA "off the hook" by going from the back to the front and making it a race. For anyone other than Jonathan Kotyk or Tyler to have won, would have been a travesty. If you disconnect yourself from any allegiances to other drivers, you would have to agree.

For the best to win, is what I want at the end of the day! Congratulations Jonathan Kotyk and KHill!

[Zach Rivard]

I believe the best man and team won. As a sportsman, I believe that is what matters and I think it is a disservice to Jonathan, Tyler, and Derek to make this anything other than a celebration of their achievements.

The "political" stance is that I did not understand the SCCA rules and made changes to our cars beyond just changing tires. I will accept responsibility for my mistake and am relieved that it did not cost my customers a win or podium. Other teams and drivers are choosing to blame SCCA. I really like Zach and Jonathan Lee but they were 5 and 6.5 seconds per lap off the pace and I believe finished about where they would have regardless of the commotion. Any short-term advantage that Jonathan may have gained would have been eliminated by the inevitable FC caution. Nobody got screwed in the end and it all worked out to the most fair result.

That is what I want at the end of the day! Congratulations Jonathan Kotyk and KHill!

Totally agree that Jonathan and Tyler were in another league all week! Even in the rain, they were 5 seconds faster than the 3rd quickest. Jonathan and KHill deserve all the credit in the world for executing a flawless race. My post was merely to provide some clarity on what happened in hopes of preventing it from happening in the future.

[Jonathan Lee]

Greg I disagree but respect your opinion.

[Jonathan Lee]

I would like congratulate K-Hill and Mr. Kotyk, they put on a fine show.

[Daryl DeArman]

I really like Zach and Jonathan Lee but they were 5 and 6.5 seconds per lap off the pace and I believe finished about where they would have regardless of the commotion. Any short-term advantage that Jonathan may have gained would have been eliminated by the inevitable FC caution.

We'll never know. No FCY and everybody but J.Lee comes into pit to change tires and gets lapped, or stays out on slicks and gets smoked in those conditions. FCY and J. Lee stays out and still manages to lap the field.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Grumpy Old Man.I guess that was supposed to refer to me. Thank You! Check out the depth of the Vintage and Club Ford fields at Indy, Road America, COTA, etc this year. No Hondas involved. I simply do liked the false statements that got the Honda into Formula Ford. It has not produced the results that were promised......in my obviously short sighted opinion.

[Daryl DeArman]

Grumpy Old Man.I guess that was supposed to refer to me. Thank You! Check out the depth of the Vintage and Club Ford fields at Indy, Road America, COTA, etc this year. No Hondas involved.

Of course, was there any doubt?

Honda didn't kill FF, more new chassis sold since the Honda was introduced than the 20 years prior. Like I said FF fields are healthy, just not with the SCCA. It's not the package that killed SCCA FF, it's the product. The vintage groups and FRP are simply delivering a much better product.

[M.Sauce]

Grumpy Old Man.I guess that was supposed to refer to me. Thank You! Check out the depth of the Vintage and Club Ford fields at Indy, Road America, COTA, etc this year. No Hondas involved. I simply do liked the false statements that got the Honda into Formula Ford. It has not produced the results that were promised......in my obviously short sighted opinion.

Roland- I predicted this much to my own disappointment about the Honda ultimately killing the FF class in SCCA club racing. I am sorry for the hijacking of the thread. The Runoffs race is another reason FF cars seek other organizations to race with. The result may have ended with the fastest two drivers finishing where they should have but the process was inconsistent with the rule book. The Stewards strike again.

[problemchild]

What a shame that this has degenerated into grumpy old men complaining about Hondas, which many of us, who are actively involved, believe saved the class, as a 21st century racing class. I was there, in the pits with 3 entries on Sunday, supporting the class, and had some choice words for the officials at the time, but I see no reason to argue about whether ARBs were disconnected, or a car that did not complete the 2nd pacelap and was ultimately almost 7 seconds per lap off the pace, was robbed of a trophy. It was in the best interest of those with skin in the game to allow a switch to rain tires. There was confusion. Everyone was worried about their own car and really does not know what anybody else did. At the end of the 15 min delay, the officials did the best they could, mostly got it right, and we had an epic battle between 2 drivers that were more than 5 seconds per lap quicker than everybody else. Tyler restarted in the pack, and came around in 2nd place at the end of lap 1 almost 10 seconds clear of 3rd place. WOW. Tyler and Jonathan went at it in epic form for the rest of the race.

Jonathan Kotyk, Tyler O'Connor, and Derek Ketchie deserve to be celebrated by the peanut gallery much more than all this other nonsense. Perhaps the peanut gallery should put some skin in the game, and show up to race!.

[James Lee]

It was unfortunate to be sent to the back of the pack for changing to rain tires. It seems like jon should have regained his grid position, after they brought everyone else in to change to rains.

We felt like we made the right call to get a win, but sometimes things don't work out.

[recaryob]

With all due respect to all parties. I respect both of you greatly for your knowledge and your experience. Both of you have assisted me at the track at multiple times over the last few years and I am grateful. For me Sunday, the cards just fell my way, and I made the most of the opportunity the rain afforded me after a miserable week trying to get an ill handling car even close.

James made a gutsy call that could have easily won them the race had the stewards not declared it a rain race. I had been questioning our decision to start a full dry set up 20 min before gridding. In fact at the time #177 pulled into pit road after the first pace lap, I was begging my Dad on the radio to follow, but we weren’t ready. I absolutely thought they just made the call to win the race. It had just started to sprinkle but the clouds were ominous. I think the problem is, it was a risk. He gave up his starting position to come down pit road on his own. Similar as if a driver spun on a pace lap. You don’t get your spot back.

I guess we can argue if it should have been called a rain race or not. It’s interesting to hear all these opinions of what should have been done or how SCCA ruined another one from a lot of people that weren’t even there to understand first hand. And we wonder why car count is down...

But I promise all of you, that if you were starting in that race on a dry setup, as everyone was ,and you were coming down the back straight on the SECOND pace lap, you were seriously questioning how and why SCCA was going to start this race when the conditions had just changed so rapidly. It was coming down folks! As previously stated it was absolutely the best call for the race and for all interested parties, unfortunately the Lee group got caught out.

As one offical told me, “The 177 rolled the dice and almost made a hero move, but it backfired.”

I seriously don’t think there was anyone out to get James or Jonathan Lee. The officials made a decision on what they thought was in the best interest of a national championship race and it’s competitors. Because of the decision James had made the lap before.... to give up their position, they got caught out.

There were quite a few officials on pit road watching the tire changes. Im not saying they got it 100%, but I think they got it mostly right.

In the briefing following the race .....it was interesting listening to Jonathan and Tyler’s explanation for why they did or didn’t make changes to their chassis. They were both conscious decisions. Jonathan wanted track position over chassis changes and opted for no changes or position penalty. While Tyler and his crew chose to make changes, thinking they would be better off over the course of the race even knowing they would be moved backwards. Both were lightning fast in the wet. I have to agree with Jonathan Lee that the vision and ability to follow one or multiple cars was a daunting task and certainly impacted our lap times. However in-spite of that Tyler came from back in the pack in one lap folks! Through all of that spray!

Long tough week for me on and off the track. Lots of ups and downs. Lots of learning. Unbelievably appreciative for the opportunity to experience every moment of it.

[problemchild]

Well I did not see that coming. I am big fans of James, Jon, and Zach and my comments were certainly not venomous attacks nor personal. Any venom in my commentary was aimed at people that were not there, and never will be. It saddens me, if they choose to take my conclusions personally as I respect and like them all. Looking at the facts and numbers involved, and minimizing emotion, I believe SCCA did the best they could in a difficult situation to protect the majority of racers and their equipment. It hurts when you are on the wrong end of a strategy gamble. I have been there, really ticked off at the time, but understand that with our current car counts, we cannot lose half the field and do 10s of thousands of dollars in damage in these conditions. I am not shy in criticizing SCCA when they get it all wrong, but also believe in supporting them when they get it right. When it all settled out, every competitor had 8 laps of racing with the opportunity to win or otherwise. I believe all the cars survived with minimal damage, no drivers were injured, and the podium drivers were very worthy.

I will continue to celebrate the accomplishments of Jonathan Kotyk, Tyler O'Connor, and Derek Ketchie

[reidhazelton]

Tangent.

It cracks me up to see the people who used to make up significant entries in the class, being told to shut up and should be put out to pasture while claiming fields are strong. Then a few posts later the same people talk about small fields in other contexts.

Person X; "Man, where did all the cars go?"
Person Y; "Well, it was several factors but expensive rules changes were the main part."
Person X; "SHUT UP OLD MAN! SOUR GRAPES!"

Person X; "Man, where did all the cars go?"

Crickets.

[swiftdrivr]

Not to amplify a tangent and begin yet another thread on "where did all the cars go," but I was surprised to see so few cars on what is arguably one of the best tracks in north America, located mid point between the northeast and the southeast, [areas of significant concentrations of FF drivers, I think] I expected more.

But, to divert to a more resolvable tangent, does anyone have video, or know when the race will be available on video from SCCA? I had to work, and missed all of it.

[reidhazelton]

But, to divert to a more resolvable tangent, does anyone have video, or know when the race will be available on video from SCCA? I had to work, and missed all of it.

I think they roll them out in chunks a week at a time over the course of a month or so. I remember something like all the Friday AM races were available one week, then the next week it was the Friday PM races. SpeedcastTV used to just dump the unedited 9a-5p reel on the website until the individual races were clipped.

[Zach Rivard]

Managed to piece together my video from the race. Tried to keep it to a reasonable length by cutting out the red flag (?) period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dOELLjqqtQ

[tlusk31]

16 of the races are up at SCCA.

https://www.scca.com/videos?categories=scca-2019-runoffs

[swiftdrivr]

Managed to piece together my video from the race. Tried to keep it to a reasonable length by cutting out the red flag (?) period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dOELLjqqtQ

WOw! I hope your view was a bit better than as seen from the camera. Conditions were a mess. Oil, oil-dry and rain. Great driving though. Thanks for posting.

[Garey Guzman]

FF is up:
https://www.scca.com/videos/2037567