RunOffs starting soon!

[Garey Guzman]

I'm got the live stream casting to my TV, can't wait to watch this!
Rooting for Jonathon Lee, driving for Lee Racing in Florida!

https://www.scca.com/events/1992861-...#event_scoring

[Jon Jeffords]

Ooof, during the parade lap of the race prior to FF, a GT1 car was smoking heavily and laying down oil. Even though he was shown the meatball flag, he stayed on track and took the green. After only a few laps, a very hard crash then brought out the all-black flag. Now, with the GT1 cars all in the pits, they're now talking about rain on the radar.

[Jon Jeffords]

John Deere green, that is. A huuuuge amount of oil dry has been laid down prior to FF race.

[Jon Jeffords]

Rain starts to fall heavily during FF parade lap, and everyone is brought in to pits to change to rains.

edit: and after a few minutes in the pits with a flurry of activity to change to rain setups, the rain stops briefly, then restarts. One car staying on dries.

[Daryl DeArman]

What's with allowing more changes than just tires?

I see, they've moved those folks who made more changes to the back. . . I've got to think they knew that it wasn't allowed, but they'd only move back a handful of spots.

In hindsight it appears that too many folks don't understand the difference between a race session starting and a race starting.

[Jon Jeffords]

I'm confused; why are they keeping them in the pits? SCCA does allow rain racing, no? <sarc>

[John Nesbitt]

What's with allowing more changes than just tires?

Good question. Commentator just said that offenders will restart from the back.

Also, apparently they stopped the clock, which seems to conflict with the supps:

5.4. ... All races will be fifteen (15) race laps (49.05 miles) or 40 minutes, whichever comes first. The 40-minute clock will start when the first car crosses the timing control line at the beginning of the first scored lap and shall continue with no stoppages.

UPDATE: Race shortened to half time/distance, so moot.

[Jon Jeffords]

What's with allowing more changes than just tires?

They just announced that the cars that made more than a tire change will be going to the back of the grid.

And I'll ask again: What. Are. They. Waiting. For ?

[Jon Jeffords]

.... great race.

[Daryl DeArman]

Read schedule incorrectly

[Jon Jeffords]

Top 10

[Garey Guzman]

I don't have much rain experience and zero RunOffs experience but why did they stop the race for everyone to change tires? Aren't we supposed to go to grid ready for the race and conditions?

BTW, I noticed that after the 1st pace lap, Jonathon Lee was called in for rains by James Lee. He might have had a cakewalk to the checker if the race had just been started.

I look forward to more experienced people sharing why this would happen.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't have much rain experience and zero RunOffs experience but why did they stop the race for everyone to change tires? Aren't we supposed to go to grid ready for the race and conditions?

BTW, I noticed that after the 1st pace lap, Jonathon Lee was called in for rains by James Lee. He might have had a cakewalk to the checker if the race had just been started.

I look forward to more experienced people sharing why this would happen.

It was embarrassing enough that a GT1 car had just stayed on the racing surface for an entire lap greatly shortening the GT1 race. They didn't want one green flag lap FF race and cars scattered all over the place, or for everybody to get lapped in the pits changing to rains while J. Lee scooted around making the right gamble.

If the top 3-4 went out on rains and the rest of the field on slicks I have no doubt they would have waived the green on time.

[E1pix]

Thank You very much for posting the livestream link, Garey!

We weren't able to attend as planned but work preceded viewing on the box. Watched everything from FF forward.

Thanks Again!

[Steve Demeter]

But isn't that why the Lee's changed tires to make the smarter gamble? It seems to me that they got a bum deal.

[Jonathan Lee]

It was embarrassing enough that a GT1 car had just stayed on the racing surface for an entire lap greatly shortening the GT1 race. They didn't want one green flag lap FF race and cars scattered all over the place, or for everybody to get lapped in the pits changing to rans while J. Lee scooted around making the right gamble.

If the top 3-4 went out on rains and the rest of the field on slicks I have no doubt they would have waived the green on time.

Thanks for the support garey,

We were just dealt a bad hand.

On the positive note I learned a lot this week and will be working harder than ever for the future.

Thanks,

[E1pix]

You looked good from here.

Very nice post.

Say Hi to your dad from me.

[fvracerone1]

The stewards allowed the field to come in and change to Rain Tires and called it a "Rain Race"? Teams were allowed to change to rains but could not adjust their swaybars(??????). In the matter of safety you would think they would allow it since they converted race to a "rain race" after cars were on track. Those caught adjusting sway bars were put to the back of the grid....My old Lola 640 had cockpit adjustable sway bars..... don't these newer cars?

FV

[Daryl DeArman]

The stewards allowed the field to come in and change to Rain Tires and called it a "Rain Race"? Teams were allowed to change to rains but could not adjust their swaybars(??????). In the matter of safety you would think they would allow it since they converted race to a "rain race" after cars were on track. Those caught adjusting sway bars were put to the back of the grid....My old Lola 640 had cockpit adjustable sway bars..... don't these newer cars?

FV

So you pull off track during the pace lap to change to rains, knowing you are going to be the only one on rains when it goes green and they will all be changing to rains under green. Yay! You cycle to the front. The correct strategy call.

Then, they abort the start and bring everybody in, declare it a rain race and let everybody change tires. Now, the field is all on same tires and you're stuck in the back because you didn't maintain pace during pace lap.

Then people make set up changes that were not allowed and they get penalized for doing so. However, so many did that it really didn't effect the grid order much and the guy who didn't maintain pace during the pace lap still has to start behind the people that performed prohibited changes to their car.

I guess the question is, since the race wasn't red-flagged and only the start postponed, who's to say what you can and can't do to your car on the grid? Where is that covered in the GCR or event supps?

For what it's worth, cockpit adjustable bars are permitted. Many of those folks weren't just adjusting bars, but adjusting shock clickers, canister pressure and other things you can't do from the cockpit during a race.

[Garey Guzman]

It should have been fair, not our fault everyone else didn't want to change to rains.
What really made us mad was that we were forced to start last rather than regrid.
We were just dealt a bad hand, what they should have really done is just called the green as planned.

When I saw that you hadn't come around on the 2nd lap, I figured either something happened to the car or you guys made a brilliant call! And after waiting all that time for the start, I couldn't believe they threw you guys in the back when you were the only ones that made the right call after the first pace lap! Either start over completely or throw the green as scheduled.

On the positive note I learned a lot this week and will be working harder than ever for the future.

Keep the positive attitude! Learning makes us better, even with some hard lessons.

[John Nesbitt]

So you pull off track during the pace lap to change to rains, knowing you are going to be the only one on rains when it goes green and they will all be changing to rains under green. Yay! You cycle to the front. The correct strategy call.

Then, they abort the start and bring everybody in, declare it a rain race and let everybody change tires. Now, the field is all on same tires and you're stuck in the back because you didn't maintain pace during pace lap.

Then people make set up changes that were not allowed and they get penalized for doing so. However, so many did that it really didn't effect the grid order much and the guy who didn't maintain pace during the pace lap still has to start behind the people that performed prohibited changes to their car.

I guess the question is, since the race wasn't red-flagged and only the start postponed, who's to say what you can and can't do to your car on the grid? Where is that covered in the GCR or event supps?

For what it's worth, cockpit adjustable bars are permitted. Many of those folks weren't just adjusting bars, but adjusting shock clickers, canister pressure and other things you can't do from the cockpit during a race.

I missed the beginning of the race, so I cannot comment on where #177 got gridded for the restart.

However, GCR 6.7, 6.8, 69 cover the administration of the rain situation.

The field went out but was (officially) black flagged. That is how you stop a session still behind the pace car. Under a black flag, for a race, you cannot work on the car. However, since it was declared a rain race, entrants could fit rain tires. Adjusting shocks etc. causes you to restart at the back.

Of course, if everybody adjusts their shocks, there is no effective difference.

Race Control chose to do a restart in the original grid order, according to the announcers. In any case, given that there was no racing (and change of position) it makes little difference whether it was grid order or last scored lap.

The race was shortened to half time, which is permitted under rain racing rules.

[Garey Guzman]

Race Control chose to do a restart in the original grid order, according to the announcers. In any case, given that there was no racing (and change of position) it makes little difference whether it was grid order or last scored lap...

They didn't go back to the original grid order for Jonathon Lee, they threw him at the back behind all the people who made adjustments in addition to changing tires. Only the guy running on slicks was behind Jonathon and probably because he knew he was in trouble unless it started drying right away.

[E1pix]

I missed that bit. Nonsensical.

[Jonathan Lee]

Working hard to get back out there next year!

I'm not sure why they sent us to the back of the pack, if they let everyone else change to rain tires before taking the green.

Hopefully we do our job right because if we do -

(Watch out because about this time next year everyone is going to want a DB6)

[John Robinson II]

(Watch out because about this time next year everyone is going to want a DB6)

With a FORD!

Now get back in class, young man.


John

[E1pix]

How utterly frustrating for any driver, particularly a young one.

I was going to post last night, "SCCA has gone from dream maker to dream taker" but thought it over the top.

With Jonathan's last post, now I don't.

[Garey Guzman]

With a FORD!

Now get back in class, young man.


John

Listen to John before he gets grumpy.....

[Dave Petzko]

I get the "no changes to the car during a black flag all" rule, but until Hoosier can figure out how to make a rain tire that is the same diameter as the radial slick tire, some allowance should be made so that the cars can be put in a safe condition to race in the rain. Especially when the Stewards invoke GCR 6.9 for (I assume) safety concerns to begin with.

[Daryl DeArman]

However, GCR 6.7, 6.8, 69 cover the administration of the rain situation.

The field went out but was (officially) black flagged. That is how you stop a session still behind the pace car. Under a black flag, for a race, you cannot work on the car. However, since it was declared a rain race, entrants could fit rain tires. Adjusting shocks etc. causes you to restart at the back.

Yes, it should cause you to restart at the back. But why didn't they? There were two cars who started behind all those who performed prohibited tasks during the race session stoppage. Where is the penalty called out for working on a car during a race black flag all or red flag?


6.7 covers the options of how a session may be stopped. (the option chosen this time was black flag all)

6.7.2 covers the working/replenishing of cars during a session stoppage.

6.8 refers to restarting a race (this race had not stopped as it never started) what started was the race session, they had not been shown the green nor had a start been aborted. (the pace car remained on track)

6.9 refers to a race being started in the dry and then being declared a rain race. The requirement is that the cars restart single file in the physical order of the the last completely scored laps. However, since this race had not been started in the dry I don't know how you apply this.

I found the wording on the situation as it applies to J. Lee 6.5.2.C.2 "A car that fails to start with the pace lap or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes its grid position and may rejoin ONLY at the back of the field".

[John Nesbitt]

Yes, it should cause you to restart at the back. But why didn't they? There were two cars who started behind all those who performed prohibited tasks during the race session stoppage. Where is the penalty called out for working on a car during a race black flag all or red flag?


6.7 covers the options of how a session may be stopped. (the option chosen this time was black flag all)

6.7.2 covers the working/replenishing of cars during a session stoppage.

6.8 refers to restarting a race (this race had not stopped as it never started) what started was the race session, they had not been shown the green nor had a start been aborted. (the pace car remained on track)

6.9 refers to a race being started in the dry and then being declared a rain race. The requirement is that the cars restart single file in the physical order of the the last completely scored laps. However, since this race had not been started in the dry I don't know how you apply this.

I found the wording on the situation as it applies to J. Lee 6.5.2.C.2 "A car that fails to start with the pace lap or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes its grid position and may rejoin ONLY at the back of the field".

The start-behind-other-cars is a standard penalty. Most (nearly all) rules violations do not have a penalty specified in the GCR. The stewards use standard penalties for some infractions, for the sake of consistency.

"6.8 refers to restarting a race (this race had not stopped as it never started)" Not so. Cars went out on the pace lap and were black flagged (even though the course also remained double yellow and the pace car was still out), so the session was stopped. It was a race session, so no working on cars.

Race Control has flexibility in the manner of a restart because of the many possible situations.

GCR 6.5.2.C.2 covers situations during the pace lap. Car #177 was placed at the back for the restart. I do not know why.

[reidhazelton]

Got the same screw job at the Spints several years ago. It was frustrating just watching that disaster unfold for no reason. It's the Runoffs and should not be deteriorated by pointless steward decisions.

It's not a spec class, you don't need to declare a rain race. If someone wants to change tires, that's on them. The whole "change tires only" deal is unverifiable unless you have a gird marshal for every car. The year they messed up the Sprints the car that won pulled the rear sway bar and wasn't supposed to. Did the catch that? Nope. Instead they black flagged half the field for doing exactly what we were allowed to.

Let the drivers make the call. If you have to pull the field in, do it under a red flag. Line the cars up in pit lane against the wall, and when the pace car goes back out if someone wants to pull off and change tires, that's their choice. So what if it starts raining on the 1st lap, or 2nd lap. Do you black flag the race and bring everyone in on the 8th lap? Second to last lap?

The stewards should be like the Lock Ness Monster or Yeti - never seen and only seldom talked about.

They should have been more focused on getting the idiot in the GT1 car off the track who juiced the entire track for two laps with 3 gallons of oil.

[Daryl DeArman]

The start-behind-other-cars is a standard penalty.

Actually the start behind other cars is the required penalty for failing to maintain position on the pace lap.

From what J. Lee stated, he was expecting that to be the case and was okay with the strategy of starting DFL on rains while everybody else took the green on slicks.

That should have been the correct call and penalty.

Most (nearly all) rules violations do not have a penalty specified in the GCR. The stewards use standard penalties for some infractions, for the sake of consistency.

So what should the penalty be for working on the car when you aren't allowed to? DQ? A stern lecture? A $1 fine? Loss of a lap? I believe they chose to work on the car (beyond tires) because they knew the penalty would be less than the "penalty" for not making said changes.

Race Control has flexibility in the manner of a restart because of the many possible situations.

The race was not being restarted, as you can't restart something you never started to begin with. The session was being restarted.

GCR 6.5.2.C.2 covers situations during the pace lap. Car #177 was placed at the back for the restart. I do not know why.

Because the situation was during the pace lap.

He got hosed twice. Once for them not starting the race. Second, because the rule requires him to start from the back but doesn't address what penalties apply to folks who worked on their cars during the session stoppage. They decided his infraction was worse than the others.

[swifttiga]

When I saw Johnathan pull off on the 2nd pace lap I thought another stroke of genius from Race Engineer Extra-ordinaire James Lee only to see they got penalized for forward thinking. I would have loved to see the young man storm to the front but he got robbed of the opportunity, oh well onwards and upwards glad to see this did not kill his spirit.

[John Nesbitt]

I believe that I have mentioned the Penalty Guidelines before. You can find them in the SCCA File Cabinet, under Road Racing. They are guidelines maintained by the stewards program for assigning penalties for commonly-occurring infractions.

An extract:

5. Assistance During Race Session Stoppage (GCR 6.7.2.)

Race – Restart at end of grid

Please note that the GCR almost never specifies a specific penalty for an infraction. You can almost count the instances on your thumbs (e.g. refusing a teardown).



I accept that your definition of "start" in this context is different from mine. I can assure you with absolute certainty that the GCR regards what happened as a stoppage, subject to GCR 6.7 and 6.8. And that is the definition that is operative.

As I have also said, I was not there. I cannot comment on how #177 ended up restarting from the back.

[Daryl DeArman]

I believe that I have mentioned the Penalty Guidelines before. You can find them in the SCCA File Cabinet, under Road Racing. They are guidelines maintained by the stewards program for assigning penalties for commonly-occurring infractions.

An extract:

5. Assistance During Race Session Stoppage (GCR 6.7.2.)

Race – Restart at end of grid

The question is how do you reconcile that with GCR 6.5.2.C.2? They can't all start at the back. Clearly there should be some pecking order with regards to the severity of the penalties.

A car that fails to start with the pace lap or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes its grid position and may rejoin only at the back of the field.

I can assure you with absolute certainty that the GCR regards what happened as a stoppage, subject to GCR 6.7 and 6.8. And that is the definition that is operative.

My lord. I haven't heard anybody claim that the race session was not a stoppage. 6.7 speaks directly to the methods to stopping a session.

6.8 speaks to restarting of a race. Not a race session, a race. The race session starts as the cars roll onto the racing surface. The race doesn't start until the green flag drops or a start is aborted. Starts aren't aborted if the pace car is still controlling the field.

As I have also said, I was not there. I cannot comment on how #177 ended up restarting from the back.

You didn't have to be there to know (it was broadcast live on the interwebs). He pulled off during the pace lap to change to rain tires. It went sideways when the keystone cops, ahem, stewards didn't know how to fairly handle multiple cars working on their cars during the race session stoppage and still apply a penalty to Lee.

[John Nesbitt]

...
My lord. I haven't heard anybody claim that the race session was not a stoppage. 6.7 speaks directly to the methods to stopping a session.

6.8 speaks to restarting of a race. Not a race session, a race. The race session starts as the cars roll onto the racing surface. The race doesn't start until the green flag drops or a start is aborted. Starts aren't aborted if the pace car is still controlling the field.

...

I am having flashbacks to an earlier back-and-forth about the meaning of "discretion".

I can assure you that what happened in the FF race was a race stoppage within the meaning of GCR 6.7 and 6.8.


I have not heard any definite statement of why #177 came to restart at the back. Has anybody from the team reached out to the Chief Steward for an explanation?

[Daryl DeArman]

I propose the SCCA add the following definitions to their Glossary.

Jeremy Hilled: v. past tense 1. having been screwed by the politics and poor decision making of the SCCA.
Nathan Ulriched v. past tense 1. having been screwed by the politics and poor decision making of the SCCA.
Jonathan Leed v. past tense 1. having been screwed by the politics and poor decision making of the SCCA.

[Daryl DeArman]

I am having flashbacks to an earlier back-and-forth about the meaning of "discretion".

Yep, wonder why? Not really, that's rhetorical.

[bassracer]

After watching I've learned to always have someone you can count on to get your rains to pit lane and support a tire change. Felt bad for Robert Gross.

[John Nesbitt]

Yep, wonder why? Not really, that's rhetorical.

Another entry for the Glossary:

(To) Daryl DeArman: v. inf. 1. To find new meanings for well-understood words.