Runoffs Grids

[veeracer98]

I was looking up Varacins position on the grid and checked out the entries. 10 FC's and 14 FF's ? Wow

BTW, good luck to Michael tomorrow and all the F Vee guys and gals.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Where are all those Hondas that were going to invigorate the class?

Sorry that was probably snarky.

[Daryl DeArman]

Where are all those Hondas that were going to invigorate the class?

Sorry that was probably snarky.

Out having fun racing somewhere other than the RunOffs. Same thing all those Kents that took their ball and went home are doing.

[fvracerone1]

They killed Open Wheel racing with club owned. built and distributed classes. F1000 racing with Atlantics? FC with FF's? Most of the paddock is filled with pro prep shops preparing cars for drivers under 25 within whom, few have ever had to pull a motor on Thursday night and load up before going to work on Friday, grabbing a sandwich as you and your crew chased points outside and within your division, hoping to get a Runoff Invitation. Now, all you have to do is show up and finish a couple of Majors and you're in. Someone told me a Paddock space is renting for 1600.00 for the week.

FV

[E1pix]

SCCA's killing off the Runoffs started on the day they introduced Showroom Stock — and in never introducing tires amateurs could afford to compete with.

Add them ignoring the wants of their core to the list.

[FVRacer21]

Wow - I did not realize Apex Speed was the new home of flat earth conspiracy theories.

Maybe the real issues are a little more complicated than just “the Scca did it”.

Some of it might even be self inflicted.....

ChrisZ

[E1pix]

No "conspiracy" on my post -- if that's what you meant. Just observations over 47 years of Runoffs, and 56 at tracks..

It used to be hard to even qualify. For example, I can name a good ten FF racers from CenDiv that were good enough to podium at a National or two in the mid- to late- '70s, but never earned enough points for a Runoffs invite as only four qualified from each of seven divisions.

I think it was the '77 FF race where the top 16 finishers were covered under a few-second blanket at the Checkered.

Not exactly saying introducing Showroom Stock cars killed the Runoffs all by themselves, but rather that's when SCCA in general went from racing race cars to also racing street cars -- at the expense of race cars. Obviously it worked when looking at class successes, but beyond Spec Miata I'd rather go view a proper kart or any other race.

The days of real spectators are all but gone, too -- and what's been forgotten is the idea that if you motivate people lining the fences, someday they may well come back to be on the other side. Road America's my home track and I've boycotted all five Runoffs for not letting spectators in until Thursday morning. Road Atlanta packed in tens of thousands, partly by understanding some actually want to witness the entire event. As in, actual sports car fans.

[BLS]

"Road Atlanta packed in tens of thousands, partly by understanding some actually want to witness the entire event."

One of which was me, and motivated to someday get there. 1978.

Excellent point.

[E1pix]

Cool. Hope you got to.

I missed '78 to do both GPs at the Glen and Montreal. Tough call, hadta sleep in a '72 Opel wagon in downtown Montreal but picked the right year.

[jhaley]

As I read this thread, I have the Petit Le Mans on in the background. The president of IMSA was being interviewed. He said the sheriff would not let any more cars into the track. It is sold out. There are still spectators that want to watch road racing at great tracks.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I could not wait to watch the runoffs at Road Atlanta or Mid Ohio on TV every year. It was like a commercial for the SCCA. Now I can watch it live or in couple of weeks I guess when they edit the live coverage. They don't make it easy though. Unfortunately, it seems like young men (and women) are just not as into cars as previous generations. Just did track day and at age 57, I was one of the younger participants.

[E1pix]

People have flooded Petit, so plenty still like cars.

But for whatever reasons, they just don't go to the Runoffs anymore. SCCA owes it to everyone who built the club to figure out why not.

[FVRacer21]

Trying to explain this will fill a book, so I will throw some ideas out there to chew on:

Reasons no one goes to Runoffs anymore: (not in order of importance)
1. Lack of Factory involvement
At height of FF there were at least 10 manufactures giving out cars, 5 motor builders etc.
2. Lack of stars - most people came to watch Newman, Tullius, Sharp, etc. This was "professional racing" Now people like this are in IMSA
3. Does not get you to Indy - path from Vee through Ford to Atlantic (no F2000, F1000, Mazda etc) to Indy does not exist
4. Swift in FF (cost) and Spec Racer Renault drove drivers from open wheel to closed wheel.
5. SCCA competing with other manufacturers - can't deny it - but not sure it was big, other than above.
6. School Series - Barber, Russel, Roos, Lucas etc - took drivers out of system
7. Money, Money, Money - technology - $1000 shocks, radios, data acquisition
8. Majors - good idea, needs to be rethought. Too much confusion and to much lack of focus.
9. Too many races - no more than 6 weekends IN division - develops rivalries and story lines. Keeps costs down.
10. iRacing, Karting, Video games, falling middle class salaries, STUDENT LOANS, etc.
11. Kids have lost contact with mechanical things.
12. Lack of press- Runoffs covered in Autoweek, Speed Sport News, On Track, Car and Driver, Road & Track, etc
13. Lack of Sponsors - Canon was big in NE and with Bob Sharp - even car companies got involved - Triumph, Datsun, Fiat, Chevy, Ford, Porsche. Mazda tries - but all the other sponsors are parts suppliers?
14. Tire wars - meant ads and free stuff....
15. Active sports car clubs - places to talk about racing.
16. Too many tracks now - but are geared to club events - not racing.
17. Track days and dedicated car clubs - SCCA is no longer the only game in town..

If I think of more I will add them.

In order to work back to where we were? Not sure if we can bring back the "Golden Age", but there is definitely room for improvement.

ChrisZ

[B Farnham]

The grids may have been lower than usual but it was still a great time.

Every year the runoffs is analyzed and compared to the "good old days", cant we just enjoy it for what it is today?

By what's said on here youd think it's a terrible event to go to. There were decent crowds on race day and the on track action was very good.

At the end of the day it has its flaws but who wouldn't like being at a race track for a week? It sure beats the hell out of work.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Every year the runoffs is analyzed and compared to the "good old days", cant we just enjoy it for what it is today?

We better, because in the not so distant future we are going to be referring to the current 10 car grids as the good old days.

There were decent crowds on race day and the on track action was very good.

I only watched 4 races, I didn't see any on track action I would classify as "very good".

Can you give me 2 or 3 races worth watching when SCCA releases them? I would enjoy some racing where there were at least 10 green flag laps, more than 2 lead changes, and a finish under green where the podium was covered by less than a football field.

I'm guessing I chose to watch the wrong ones. I didn't see the SM or SRF3 race. DIdn't catch the STL race either. I'm guessing they may suit my needs. Any others?

[FVRacer21]

The grids may have been lower than usual but it was still a great time.

Every year the runoffs is analyzed and compared to the "good old days", cant we just enjoy it for what it is today?

By what's said on here youd think it's a terrible event to go to. There were decent crowds on race day and the on track action was very good.

At the end of the day it has its flaws but who wouldn't like being at a race track for a week? It sure beats the hell out of work.

Brian

Brian,

FV is still closest to the "golden days" and the fight for the lead was as good as ever. So many weird things happened, you don't usually loose spindles and engine studs at the Runoffs along with the first lap incident and people losing batteries and throttle cables on the pace lap..... Trying to figure out why there was not 40 cars instead of 26, Might have been VIR is too "coastal" or the rainy spring Major turned some people off. The real issue is with FF and FC. FB seems to be gone. Classes like HP and others seem to be strong but it might be an East Coast thing. SM is the FV of today and SRF did not exist for most of the "Golden years".

The cost and purpose seems to have driven the latter groups to alternate series.

Great run to 4th.

Chris

[BLS]

"Cool. Hope you got to. "

Ha, Guess that was a little cryptic...

I attended the runoffs at Road Atlanta every year from 1971 I think, whenever it first started at RA. I started racing FV in 1973.

I qualified for the runoffs and went in 1978.

[BLS]

"I only watched 4 races, I didn't see any on track action I would classify as "very good". "

Due to circumstance beyond my control I found myself driving in the car during the FV race on Saturday. However, determined to watch I connected by my little phone and rode down the highway at 80 watching the race. Traffic was light so no real problem. I thought it was a "very good" race but admittedly I didn't have the best video given a tiny phone (iphone) and an inability to focus.

I await the replay.

I hated that the first lap had a mishap that took out so many cars.

[problemchild]

I only watched 4 races, I didn't see any on track action I would classify as "very good".

?

Ironically, the 6 OW (FF, FC, FA, FV, FE, FE2) races had decent battles for podium positions, despite small grid sizes. FV, FF, FE, and FE2 had last lap passes for the wins. Of course, those were tame compared to FRP F1600 or FVCC last laps.

The FV race would have been better if the 12 car had a few less HP. No matter what mistake was made, he would just drive back to the lead on the next straightaway. That is not a dig or political shot, but just the observation of a spectator who enjoyed the race. It was like watching a F1 race with a Ferrari vs Mercedes and RedBull.

In our world, the Runoffs is just another race, and I would value an FRP win in F1600 or F2000 on par, if not higher. With some of the top FRP F1600 racers returning to the Runoffs, it is harder to win FF at the Runoffs than a few years ago.

The Runoffs are a complex situation that needs a new format, but will not change as long as 600-800 customers keep showing up. The festival event is based on an outdated business model and organized by SCCA using their outdated business model. It is what it is.

I also believe that after a decade of "destination" events, those motivated to come to the festival because of destination, are "destinationed out" and the field filler attraction has dwindled..

[Amon]

We were at VIR for ten days and that's hard for many drivers and families to do. We could have cut that short by
testing later in the week but you're basically there for at least 7 days and the expense of the entry fee, lodging and
other required expenses are making it hard for the amateur racer to attend on a yearly basis. As a result they pick
and choose what year they'll attend and probably being a far east event may he contributed to several cases seeing
fewer cars this year?

Mark

[Raceworks]

Where are all those Hondas that were going to invigorate the class?

In the case of my two, saving my money for the 50th Anniversary at Road Atlanta. 2/3 the entry fee, a 3 day event instead of a whole week, and I get to do two races instead of just one.

Another factor: shared qualifying with F5. FF & F5 do not play well together, particularly some of the nimrods that show up for Majors / Runoffs races.

I don't really see doing another Runoffs in the forseeable future unless they change the format so I'm not committed to a week or more out of town. I haven't been able to sell customers on it for a decade: the wanabee pro drivers are obsessed with F3 / F4 or the Road to Indy, and any gentleman drivers below retirement age usually can't spare all the time off work. This is especially true when you've got alternatives like FRP where for 2/3 the money you can do a weekend with 3 races and double the track time.

FYI for the "Hondas killed the Runoffs" crowd. Runoffs grids for FF have been
2002 Mid-Ohio: 27
2003 Mid-Ohio: 26
2004 Mid-Ohio: 31
2005 Mid-Ohio: 26
2006 Topeka: 35
2007 Topeka: 25
2008 Topeka: 24
2009 Road America: 14
2010 Road America: 35 (2 Honda)
2011 Road America: 24 (3 Honda)
2012 Road America: 22 (5 Honda)
2013 Road America: 24 (12 Honda)
2014 Laguna Seca: 26 (19 Honda)
2015 Daytona: 25 (15 Honda)
2016 Mid-Ohio: 14 (11 Honda)
2017 Indy: 36 (27 Honda)
2018 Sears Point: 22 (19 Honda)
2019 VIR: 14 (11 Honda)

Only trend I see is a combination of economics & the fickleness of racers.

I'd also note that between 2011 and 2016 (particularly '14 to '16) dozens of new FF's were built & sold in North America, something that hadn't happened in decades, and none of those had Kents.

The biggest threats to FF grids is the fact that a lot of cars & drivers are aging out & we aren't getting replacements. All things being equal a 25-year old frame is NOT going to be competitive at the national level. If those of you running around in an original frame from the late 1980's or early 1990's had those things x-rayed you'd be horrified.

A lot of current racers either can't afford a new cars or refuse to acknowledge the economics are different. Sure, a top of the line DB-1 could be had for the equivalent of a mere $40,000 in today's dollars, but that's why Swift and so many others don't make grassroots-level formula cars any more.

A lot of the kids are getting snatched right out of Karting by the Road to Indy & the F3 / F4 circus by professional driver coaches and prep shop owners. The general impression of SCCA open-wheel racing is that there's lots of yellows due to the combination of poor driving, mixed-class racing, and bad car prep (and sadly, they're often right).

[Terry Abbott]

i personally know of 7 drivers decided to skip the Runoffs this year because of what happened in the Spring Major. ( they had 600 cars for that Major) we were also there for that event and it didn't go very good. mud bogs, No HOT pulls, lots of Black flag all's , etc.

SCCA did make a GREAT effort to overcome that, upper paddock had plenty of gravel hard packed roads put in, and additional pace cars, EV's and such around the track. it worked better but not perfect.

East coast is going to see lower numbers compared to the Midwest. They did have a discussion at noon on Wednesday or Thursday don't remember which day about the Runoffs.....we were 2 people of about 15 in the room. pretty sad really, SCCA at least tried to hear what ACTIVE RACING members want.

[Hardingfv32]

The FV race would have been better if the 12 car had a few less HP. No matter what mistake was made, he would just drive back to the lead on the next straightaway....

Number 12 did clear the most all encompassing engine tear down of the year in post race tech. What more do you want? The Varicins and Whitston's build their own engines. I guess we could go to a spec engine. Say a low output 1600.

Brian

[Amon]

Andrew's engine IS legal...enough said as he earned the win fair & square!

[Daryl DeArman]

Who said his motor wasn't legal? The only reference I caught was that it would have been a better race if he didn't have as much horsepower.

[FVRacer21]

Back to the thread:

Will we see 40 (FV) cars now that the Runoffs is back at Road America next year?

or will anyone put that off for Indy in 2021?

Is it important that the track holding the Runoffs has at least a two year and maybe a 3 year contract?

ChrisZ

[Amon]

Chris,

I'm more concerned about the weather next year at RA in October than the FV car count as 30+
cars will be achieved again. Your thoughts about Indy may come true as that's my plan in 21'
at the moment.

Mark

[FVRacer21]

....we were 2 people of about 15 in the room. pretty sad really, SCCA at least tried to hear what ACTIVE RACING members want.

The age old conundrum - asking those who are there, why others are not.

I have never gone to the Runoffs - thought about it twice - always something came up.

To do it I would probably plan to have one of my engines rebuilt just before, show up for the second day of qualifying and hope for the best. Tires would have 2 cycles on them before the race. Have spare tires and engine just in case.

No chance of winning, but would like to do it at least once in my life. Guessing it would cost about $4,000 when all was said in done, over what I spend during the season.

Of course that would pay for almost 1.5 regional seasons.......

Ironically, maybe when I retire!

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

The Runoff count is not an accurate gauge of the health of the class. FV is a good example of that, as Runoff entries have fallen minimally over 25 years, while "national" participation numbers have fallen off a cliff. The Runoff count means nothing to a NEFV racer at Thompson, or a FVCC racer at Mid-Ohio, or some poor single FV racer at a MW track racing in Formula Alphabet. That SCCA continues to value that gauge is just part of reason our club racing is where it is at.
You can ask FB racers about that gauge.

[GrahamLoughead35]

Number 12 did clear the most all encompassing engine tear down of the year in post race tech. What more do you want? The Varicins and Whitston's build their own engines. I guess we could go to a spec engine. Say a low output 1600.

Brian

I have no comment on whether Andrew's engine is legal or not but tech for FV had ZERO idea what they were doing. Tech came and asked my dad to help learn about the class like how to tell if a tire was spec or not. They had no clue and was an absolute shame to tech

[FVRacer21]

I have no comment on whether Andrew's engine is legal or not but tech for FV had ZERO idea what they were doing. Tech came and asked my dad to help learn about the class like how to tell if a tire was spec or not. They had no clue and was an absolute shame to tech

Another reason for having a 3 year contract with a track. That way they can groom local corner workers and tech people. Moving around means new people each year and like the drivers - most of the SCCA crew is not getting any younger....

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

Another reason for having a 3 year contract with a track. That way they can groom local corner workers and tech people. Moving around means new people each year and like the drivers - most of the SCCA crew is not getting any younger....

ChrisZ

You don't need a traveling circus of 1,242 SCCA Officials to put on the RunOffs. What you do need is competent tech folks. The difficult line to walk is getting tech folks that are knowledgeable enough about the rules and cars of a particular class without the appearance of a vested interest in the outcome.

[Hardingfv32]

I...tech for FV had ZERO idea what they were doing...

I know for a fact that there was a complete engine tear down ending up with four boxes of parts. Tech use a plan used in the past by Fred Clark. Fred was not with Tech. Post Runoff tech's are a highly planned affair. Everything was measured and weighed... no issue with the intake manifold.

There was an issue measuring transmission gear ratios using input shaft and tire rotation. Things were not looking right and they were concerned about what the new spec tire might have be playing in the measurement. This is a crude method of checking to see if the gear ratios are as specified. If you do not like what you see there is always the option to tear down the gear box.

Brian

[awhitston]

The head of tech for fv was very knowledgeable in general engine and mechanical areas. He was relatively new to the class, but had been spending a lot of his time learning as much as he could about the class before the event. His team was very professional, respectful. Many thanks to all of them for serving our community!
We were fully legal with plenty of margin to spare on all parts.

[awhitston]

We have worked our asses off for many years in pursuit of this. My trap speeds were a little down on some of the other top runners but my car was setup perfect for hog pen and was getting great runs down the front straight.

Please don't marginalize our championship.

We really appreciate all the congratulations and support from the FV community! We love the class and the people that make it special!!!

[B Farnham]

Pretty sad that Andrew had to defend himself on this when they tore his engine all the way down.

Hes been fast everywhere and has earned it from his driving. Running with him he didnt have any more power than any of the other front runners

[GrahamLoughead35]

I know for a fact that there was a complete engine tear down ending up with four boxes of parts. Tech use a plan used in the past by Fred Clark. Fred was not with Tech. Post Runoff tech's are a highly planned affair. Everything was measured and weighed... no issue with the intake manifold.

There was an issue measuring transmission gear ratios using input shaft and tire rotation. Things were not looking right and they were concerned about what the new spec tire might have be playing in the measurement. This is a crude method of checking to see if the gear ratios are as specified. If you do not like what you see there is always the option to tear down the gear box.

Brian

I am in no way questioning Andrew's championship or his car in any way. I would say that I know Andrew in pretty personal way and know he and his dad worked hard for this championship. I congratulate him on that.

[GrahamLoughead35]

Andrew is legal plain and simple.

[Hardingfv32]

... I am in no way questioning Andrew's championship ...

Agreed. I take your statement as a question about Tech's competency. Tech could if they wished be a little more forthcoming about their activities. I am not sure why every thing has to be so secretive.

Brian

[mmi16]

Back to the thread:

Will we see 40 (FV) cars now that the Runoffs is back at Road America next year?

or will anyone put that off for Indy in 2021?

Is it important that the track holding the Runoffs has at least a two year and maybe a 3 year contract?

ChrisZ

Will Hoosier have Snow Tires available for the 2020 Runoffs?

[mmi16]

Agreed. I take your statement as a question about Tech's competency. Tech could if they wished be a little more forthcoming about their activities. I am not sure why every thing has to be so secretive.

Brian

Ever competitor views his car and everything about it as Proprietary Intellectual Property - as such they don't want anyone to know what was found during 1st Place Tech except that the vehicle is legal.