Build thread on Groot 2

[lowside67]

Just an aside, and sorry to Tom if this is cluttering his thread, but if I were an active CM competitor and owned a FF, I'd be thinking long and hard about petitioning the SCCA to allow some different wheels on the car, in the goal of having better tire options available.

FC wheels are very readily available on the used market at low costs and would bolt right on to a FF. The larger wheel would safely allow you to run FC front tires which are available in other brands, reducing the dependency on Hoosier.

-Mark

[alangbaker]

Mark, you Phil, Ben and I should talk about the tire situation. I would be interested to see if we can save any money on a UK Avon tyre group buy...

then maybe we can get some of those gum rubber soft compounds that we drool over....

What size Avons will work for Formula F's?

Sorry my friend, Phil and I are in "Pirelli Land" now - no Avons on our cars. We run Pirellis for autocross/hillclimb and in my case Hankooks for time attack and other open track events.

-Mark

I think the soft compound for FF are designed for the 6" and 7" width rims they run in England??? I could be wrong. The vintage stuff made for 5.5" width rims are only available in a hard compound from memory. A few emails or phone calls could get an up to date answer.

In 2015, before the spec tire rule, the SCCA Runoffs were won by a car running Avon front tires on all 4 corners , so at least then, there was a tire they made that was sticky enough to compete with the gumballs that Hoosier was building for everyone else.

[Jim Garry]

Just an aside, and sorry to Tom if this is cluttering his thread, but if I were an active CM competitor and owned a FF, I'd be thinking long and hard about petitioning the SCCA to allow some different wheels on the car, in the goal of having better tire options available.

FC wheels are very readily available on the used market at low costs and would bolt right on to a FF. The larger wheel would safely allow you to run FC front tires which are available in other brands, reducing the dependency on Hoosier.

-Mark

I understand the reasoning but that change would be a performance upgrade. So to not lose one's competitive position would require purchasing wheels (new or used). Most of us use 2 to 3 sets. That would be an expensive and unneeded outlay of funds.

[lowside67]

I can appreciate your point Jim, but pretty much autocross is the only place where the R25B is used now since the road racing guys are on the spec radial, and everything overseas is treaded. There will be a day where Hoosier will stop producing that tire (it might already have been stopped, and there is just a warehouse full of old stock) given that it won't make sense to make them. Then everybody is going to be in trouble in very short order.

-Mark

[Jim Garry]

The tire is being made new on a regular basis. Until the time comes when Hoosier makes some kind of an announcement, it would be more competitor-friendly to not essentially force everyone to spend thousands of dollars on wheels.

Indeed, if that time comes, it would be fair to ask CMod competitors if they'd prefer to open up the rules to allow different wheels, or if they'd prefer to switch over to the FF spec tire.

[chrisw52]

What size Avons will work for Formula F's?

I ran a 7.0/20-13 for the front, and a 7.6/22.0-13 for the rear in a A53 compound. Not a bad tire in hot weather. Very consistent heat cycling. Basically, 1st run warms the tires and then the temps and pressures were set for the rest of your runs. They are a little hard to warm up and "turn on" in cold weather because this compound is really the softest medium compound they offer for road racing. Avon has a lot of softer compounds intended for hill climb and their auto slaloms (which we call autocross). The hard part is finding the right sizes in the softer compounds that we want.

running against Ben Martinez and his co-driver, I was usually about 8 tenths off his times with my old crappy flexible swift, driving single, using these tires. So... they show promise. Another good point was that they don't pick up the clag as mush as hoosiers do.

[Jim Garry]

Did you ever consider their real soft compounds? I used the A92 for my BMod car and they were very nice. I never bothered to look for that compound in a size that would fit FF wheels.

[hdsporty1988]

[QUOTE=lowside67;620998]I can appreciate your point Jim, but pretty much autocross is the only place where the R25B is used now since the road racing guys are on the spec radial, and everything overseas is treaded. There will be a day where Hoosier will stop producing that tire (it might already have been stopped, and there is just a warehouse full of old stock) given that it won't make sense to make them. Then everybody is going to be in trouble in very short order.

There are groups outside of SCCA that don't have a Spec tire. Also, the R25 has always been a mostly autocross tire with Road Racers using the R35.

[Jim Garry]

Especially on the F440, 500, 600, plenty of racers use the R25. And some FF drivers use it also depending on weather.

[pleavens]

Did you ever consider their real soft compounds? I used the A92 for my BMod car and they were very nice. I never bothered to look for that compound in a size that would fit FF wheels.

I looked pretty hard into getting the Avons in the best possible AX / Hillclimb compounds for FF a few years ago, end result:
A. No one in England bothered to reply to my inquiries.
B. The only US dealer that had any interest, made it clear that I would need to be ordering a LARGE batch of tires in order to get them and tried very hard to convince me to buy tires that had been sitting in their warehouse for years.

The market for the larger sizes is big enough that tires are available through several sources, (and manufacturers) but the unique nature of the skinny rimmed Formula F makes things far more difficult. I have to agree with Mark's assessment that in the long run CM would be better off dealing with some short term pain (a wheel size change) in order to be less at risk if the current supplier where to vanish.

As an aside, I find the newer generation compound tires like the Pirellis I'm running on my BM Stohr WF1 to be far, far better tires in the Autocross/Hillclimb environment. Having tires that work without needing a maniac co-driver to warm them up first is very nice.


Phil

[lowside67]

As an aside, I find the newer generation compound tires like the Pirellis I'm running on my BM Stohr WF1 to be far, far better tires in the Autocross/Hillclimb environment. Having tires that work without needing a maniac co-driver to warm them up first is very nice.

The Pirellis are great. On the other hand, I have been downsized from the role of "Maniac Co-Driver" so...

-Mark

[bassracer]

I imagine you’ll see the r25s stay around until there are no more bias slicks in any club/vintage FF road racing. Someone can correct me, but I imagine the tooling is the same. Thus, should economies of scale no longer justify any bias slicks production, perhaps they will have reason to offer the radial in a softer compound to keep CM happy, and also inch back closer to complaint with formula f GCR. It will help with being close on setup for radial WETs, too.

[OneWayOut]

The larger wheel would safely allow you to run FC front tires which are available in other brands, reducing the dependency on Hoosier.

We (CM drivers) already run the 20.5x7 FC front (43163, now 43164) on our front FF wheels.

It's a great tire that works just fine. Sure, more tire vendor competition would be nice, but let's get another engine supplier first.

[TedV]

Conversation with a Hoosier rep about the R25's used by autocross folks. Basically the fronts are never going away as many many different cars use that size and compound around the world. I had figured that but was more concerned with the rear. He couldn't go into details on market specifics but said don't worry, they sold enough to keep the rear size in production. That was 2019. No clue how 2020 quarantine and 2021 into the future will impact sales and thus production. If concerned, call Hoosier Corporate or email. Jeff Speer is the man to talk to. Other than the occasional grumpy local dealer employee, Jeff has always been nice to deal with.

The CM cars, FF, S2000, SRF intent of the autocross rules is to follow the GCR except for having an open tire rule. Until those road race wheel rules change, I would hope autocross rules do not change. Until then, feel free to experiment with any tire that fits the spec size wheel. Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.

Tom, Groot 2 looks sweet!! Although, I hope a CAM driver doesn't think it's a fast moving cone flung cross the course. When it was all black "Did you see that speed bump?" lol Thanks for letting us run your thread off course during silly season.

[t walgamuth]

Thanks
Ted! it looked very good with all black and the small red highlights. I do have a thing about orange though.

Tom

[t walgamuth]

What wheels are the lightest allowed for FF autocrossing?

I found some wheels that weigh like 5# and less.....are they legal and available?

My oz mag wheels are like 8# IIRC.

[t walgamuth]

Conversation with a Hoosier rep about the R25's used by autocross folks. Basically the fronts are never going away as many many different cars use that size and compound around the world. I had figured that but was more concerned with the rear. He couldn't go into details on market specifics but said don't worry, they sold enough to keep the rear size in production. That was 2019. No clue how 2020 quarantine and 2021 into the future will impact sales and thus production. If concerned, call Hoosier Corporate or email. Jeff Speer is the man to talk to. Other than the occasional grumpy local dealer employee, Jeff has always been nice to deal with.

The CM cars, FF, S2000, SRF intent of the autocross rules is to follow the GCR except for having an open tire rule. Until those road race wheel rules change, I would hope autocross rules do not change. Until then, feel free to experiment with any tire that fits the spec size wheel. Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.

Tom, Groot 2 looks sweet!! Although, I hope a CAM driver doesn't think it's a fast moving cone flung cross the course. When it was all black "Did you see that speed bump?" lol Thanks for letting us run your thread off course during silly season.

No worries about drift.

I am not a Nazi about following a thread.....I do it more like stream of conscientiousness.

[Jim Garry]

What wheels are the lightest allowed for FF autocrossing?

I found some wheels that weigh like 5# and less.....are they legal and available?

My oz mag wheels are like 8# IIRC.

SCCA Solo rules for C Modified Formula F's follows the GCR. Here's the GCR section for wheels and tires in the FF/FC section:

10. Wheels and Tires
Wheels are unrestricted except that:
a. Material must be metal.
b. Diameter shall be thirteen (13) inches.
c. Rim width: Formula F: shall not exceed 5.5 inches. Formula Continental: shall not exceed 6.0 inches front and 8.0 inches rear.
d. All measurements shall be taken between the beads.
e. Formula F shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears): Dries: Front- Hoosier R60A Radial 43322 or F1600 Radial 43321 185/60R13
Rear- Hoosier R60A Radial 43327 or F1600 Radial 43326 205/60R13
Wets: Front-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44421 185/60R13 Rear-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44426 205/60R13
f. All Formula F competitors competing in an SCCA sanctioned event shall place three (3) “Hoosier Tires” decals on their car in the following locations: one (1) 8”x2” on the vertical plane of the front nose section, and two (2) 11”x3”, one on each side of the engine cover on a vertical plane.

And of course the Solo rules exempt competitors from spec tires.

[t walgamuth]

SCCA Solo rules for C Modified Formula F's follows the GCR. Here's the GCR section for wheels and tires in the FF/FC section:

10. Wheels and Tires
Wheels are unrestricted except that:
a. Material must be metal.
b. Diameter shall be thirteen (13) inches.
c. Rim width: Formula F: shall not exceed 5.5 inches. Formula Continental: shall not exceed 6.0 inches front and 8.0 inches rear.
d. All measurements shall be taken between the beads.
e. Formula F shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears): Dries: Front- Hoosier R60A Radial 43322 or F1600 Radial 43321 185/60R13
Rear- Hoosier R60A Radial 43327 or F1600 Radial 43326 205/60R13
Wets: Front-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44421 185/60R13 Rear-Hoosier Wet or W3 Radial 44426 205/60R13
f. All Formula F competitors competing in an SCCA sanctioned event shall place three (3) “Hoosier Tires” decals on their car in the following locations: one (1) 8”x2” on the vertical plane of the front nose section, and two (2) 11”x3”, one on each side of the engine cover on a vertical plane.

And of course the Solo rules exempt competitors from spec tires.

...and any wisdom on the lightest wheel available to meet the above specs?

[chrisw52]

...and any wisdom on the lightest wheel available to meet the above specs?

the OZ's you already have. they are only 6.5# each

https://www.primusracingparts.com/OZ...sium_p_63.html

[t walgamuth]

the OZ's you already have. they are only 6.5# each

https://www.primusracingparts.com/OZ...sium_p_63.html

Still great eh? That is good news!

Thanks!

Tom

[t walgamuth]

Today finished installing the aluminum calipers, and a new clutch master. Bled them...dang a tiny bubble sure causes problems!

Events on Saturday and Sunday at Columbus in.

Woo Hoooo!

[t walgamuth]

In thinking about these bleeding situations, will it help to raise up the master cylinders reservoirs? I am already having trouble with the clutch and one of the brake masters being too close to each other making removal of the lid nigh onto impossible.

[t walgamuth]

Today I got my grandson to help, We've got a very good hard pedal now.

[t walgamuth]

Today I got my grandson to help bleed.

We've got a very good hard pedal now.

[t walgamuth]

I was awakened this morning by a knock on my door at 5 am. A guy was standing there who i did not recognize but have been expecting a plumber today. I opened the door and stepped outside, thinking it was 7 am or so. The guy stated that my trailer was open and he thought I would like to know that. I thanked him profusely. He said he was on his way to work at the taco bell, lived down the street and knew I had a race car in it. i went out and found the back door open. At the front of the trailer it looks like they got my folding aluminum bike. If that is all I will be happy.

I can get another of those I expect.

As a preventative I guess I'll put the trailer in the driveway with the rear door against my garage.

[Jim Garry]

Whoa. That's not good. Did they cut off the locks?

Hope it was just the bike and nothing else.

The trailer has a GPS device for tracking. I will also be installing an alarm this winter.

[Messenger Racing]

Tom,

Hate to hear that - one of my big fears. Hope it is minor inconvenience and nothing more.

JM

[lowside67]

I was awakened this morning by a knock on my door at 5 am. A guy was standing there who i did not recognize but have been expecting a plumber today. I opened the door and stepped outside, thinking it was 7 am or so. The guy stated that my trailer was open and he thought I would like to know that. I thanked him profusely. He said he was on his way to work at the taco bell, lived down the street and knew I had a race car in it. i went out and found the back door open. At the front of the trailer it looks like they got my folding aluminum bike. If that is all I will be happy.

I can get another of those I expect.

As a preventative I guess I'll put the trailer in the driveway with the rear door against my garage.

Is the car still there???

-Mark

[t walgamuth]

Yes, they climbed over the 25K race car, tools, helmets, jack and aluminum air tank to steal my $55 bike. (It's worth more probably.)

Go figure. I am guessing it might have been a kid who needed a bike and had access to bolt cutters?

I lock all my stuff up but consider it gone if a professional wants in.

[Chris Livengood]

Thieves can be a curious lot. I live in the city and it's not particularly uncommon for people to do door handle checks on your vehicle. Occasionally I slip up and forget to lock my car. Over the last decade or so I have had an iPad walk off, a few computer monitors, and a handful of other things. Most recently though somebody got in my car and ate some peanuts, a few powerbars, and drank an unopened Gatorade. I guess they were hungry. They left an iPad, cash money, and some other minor valuables.

[t walgamuth]

My son told me of a special padlock which is round and very hard to get a cutter on. Anybody know a name for it?

[Ken Lawrence]

Like this?
Tried to paste a picture. Master M50Xd ~ 17 dollars on Amazon

[t walgamuth]

Yes, I think. Thanks Ken!

[hdsporty1988]

Yes, I think. Thanks Ken!

And you can buy 3 or 4 of them keyed alike.

[hdsporty1988]

Yes, I think. Thanks Ken!

And you can buy 3 or 4 of them keyed alike, even a set to include tongue locks.

[Jim Garry]

I still use the typical Master lock with exposed shackle, like the ones that Tom is replacing. I intend to upgrade. I've always been torn between getting the really expensive puck locks or the more common puck locks.

The affordable ones make it very tough for kids or non dedicated thieves to get in.

But to foil someone who knows how to pick locks you need something like Proven Industries 400 XL-SS. But the price is crazy.

So the question I suppose is how many thieves know how to pick locks? Is it worth spending alot extra for this?

[Chris Livengood]

Google the Lock Picking Lawyer. It will turn you off on locks. The old saying that they keep honest people honest certainly rings true. Most locks are such garbage that they only really deter crimes of opportunity. Anybody even remotely determined can easily get through that vast majority of locks.

[Thomas Wirtz]

Watch these,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fW3JdvGhAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVtHiX12TVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6Rs6MHC6g

[t walgamuth]

Like this?
Tried to paste a picture. Master M50Xd ~ 17 dollars on Amazon

I got a pair like this but has a 40 in the middle.....smaller I guess.