Shameful conduct by SCCA officials at Road Atlanta

[scott fairchild]

A long time ago we were less than 1 pound under min weight. Tech was actually very supportive of our problem. After much humming aNd hawing the chief of tech asked me a question. It was a very simple question! It was " do you have any questions? ". I said yes I do. He said to go ahead so I did. We were out of tech in about 30 secoonds.

A beer to whoever gets it first!

Ask the inspector how much they weigh?

[Rick Kirchner]

ha.... I went for the angle I hear people fighting radar gun speeding tickets with. surprising how often I hear it working in PA.

Radar guns are calibrated on the spot with a tuning fork. Always ask to see the gun cal'd in front of you. It's pretty amazing how many people were traveling at the gun's calibration speed.....

[TedV]

A long time ago we were less than 1 pound under min weight. Tech was actually very supportive of our problem. After much humming aNd hawing the chief of tech asked me a question. It was a very simple question! It was " do you have any questions? ". I said yes I do. He said to go ahead so I did. We were out of tech in about 30 secoonds.

A beer to whoever gets it first!

What is the accuracy tolerance for the scales?

[John Nesbitt]

What is the accuracy tolerance for the scales?

I suspect that was written tongue-in-cheek, but it is actually a very good question.

GCR 5.9.4.A. states, "The scales at the event are the official scales for the event."

Section 5.9.4.C. specifies the acceptable certification methods, either annual by a commercial scale service, or at the track, using weights.

Appendix G.2. Measurement Standards specifies, "1. Weight is absolute minimum."


So, bottom line, the scales are the scales, and half a pound underweight is underweight. The action taken on that reading is at the discretion of the Chief Steward, within the limits of his powers.

[TedV]

Jay said it was along time ago and there is a reason all that is in the GCR now. It's a shot at a free beer, what do I have to loose?

[Jnovak]

"What's your favorite beer?"

What's your fav john?

[Jnovak]

The question I asked was:

"When was the scale last calibrated?"

He said "you can go"

I assume that that was a discretionary decision on his part, but I am not sure!

[Daryl DeArman]

I suspect that was written tongue-in-cheek, but it is actually a very good question.

GCR 5.9.4.A. states, "The scales at the event are the official scales for the event."

Section 5.9.4.C. specifies the acceptable certification methods, either annual by a commercial scale service, or at the track, using weights.

Appendix G.2. Measurement Standards specifies, "1. Weight is absolute minimum."


So, bottom line, the scales are the scales, and half a pound underweight is underweight. The action taken on that reading is at the discretion of the Chief Steward, within the limits of his powers.

Except for 9.2.1.k "Cars found to be underweight at impound are subject to penalty and the weight shall be noted on the next page of the Vehicle Logbook."

There's a shall in there. . . I am assuming we can agree that there's no discretion about the notation.

Speaking of shall: "9.3.50 All cars shall meet or exceed the minimum weight specified with driver, exactly as they come off the race circuit, at the conclusion of any race or qualifying session".

[John Nesbitt]

Except for 9.2.1.k "Cars found to be underweight at impound are subject to penalty and the weight shall be noted on the next page of the Vehicle Logbook."

There's a shall in there. . . I am assuming we can agree that there's no discretion about the notation.

Speaking of shall: "9.3.50 All cars shall meet or exceed the minimum weight specified with driver, exactly as they come off the race circuit, at the conclusion of any race or qualifying session".

Absolutely. What is in the Chief Steward's discretion is whether and how much to penalize the infraction.

[Jnovak]

Now this all happened over 25 years ago. But thats what happened!

He did ask why we were under weight and I said I don't know.

I thought he was being very generous, but I suspect that he did not trust the scales.

[Daryl DeArman]

I thought he was being very generous, but I suspect that he did not trust the scales.

It's unfortunate that they draw a line in the sand and then decide it's okay if people stick their pinky toe over it, on accident.

If 1# is no big deal (it's not performance-wise) then what about the guy who is 2# light? Do you bounce him? After all he's only 1# lighter than the other car you let through. So you let the guy that's 2# light slide, and then comes some guy that's 3# light. . . at some point down the line, somebody is getting bounced for being a pound lighter than someone that doesn't get bounced. Might as well draw that line right where the good book says "Absolute Minimum".

I am, and likely will always be a firm believer in having rules that say what you mean, and to mean what you say. There's no reason to have rules you can't or won't enforce. Too damn many of them in the 700-ish page thing anyway.

[t walgamuth]

The question I asked was:

"When was the scale last calibrated?"

He said "you can go"

I assume that that was a discretionary decision on his part, but I am not sure!

Excellent question and excellent response!

[Ed Womer]

Having been a life long FV racer and car builder I do pay attention to some rules that most don't know about or haven't noticed. Like I previously mentioned that the rule could read exhaust must terminate outside or beyond the bodywork is all that is needed since other portions of the rules put other restrictions on the car. Maybe the best solution is the old saying KISS, keep it simple stupid! Stop making it difficult and simplify everything that can be simplified.

Ed

Just remembered that in my job as an inspector in MD that a lot of rules in zoning were brought about by one person mot liking what another did thus a new rule.

[Jnovak]

It's unfortunate that they draw a line in the sand and then decide it's okay if people stick their pinky toe over it, on accident.

If 1# is no big deal (it's not performance-wise) then what about the guy who is 2# light? Do you bounce him? After all he's only 1# lighter than the other car you let through. So you let the guy that's 2# light slide, and then comes some guy that's 3# light. . . at some point down the line, somebody is getting bounced for being a pound lighter than someone that doesn't get bounced. Might as well draw that line right where the good book says "Absolute Minimum".

I am, and likely will always be a firm believer in having rules that say what you mean, and to mean what you say. There's no reason to have rules you can't or won't enforce. Too damn many of them in the 700-ish page thing anyway.

Daryl I totally understand and agree. However he did look at our qualifying weight and we were our usual 5 lb over weight. The reality was that the 10,000 lb massive semi truck scale was junk and he knew it!

[Jnovak]

Excellent question and excellent response!

If you have been to IRP you may have seen this SCALE!

[Daryl DeArman]

The reality was that the 10,000 lb massive semi truck scale was junk and he knew it!

Like I said, no need for rules that they don't intend to or can't enforce. Competitors agree to be held to whatever equipment the tech officials have. Not to say they don't exist, but I've never seen a platform scale that was capable of 1# resolution. Granted, I know you don't really mean massive semi-truck scale, but poking fun of the type of equipment they were utilizing to weigh a 1000# ish car.

As to the "usual and customary 5# over", why does tech get to assume that your car and driver are the same condition post race as you were post qualifying? That's less than a gallon of fuel, as much weight that I've lost in a given race day, or a really long stay in the bathroom.

[Jnovak]

Ok Daryl.

[Jnovak]

Like I said, no need for rules that they don't intend to or can't enforce. Competitors agree to be held to whatever equipment the tech officials have. Not to say they don't exist, but I've never seen a platform scale that was capable of 1# resolution. Granted, I know you don't really mean massive semi-truck scale, but poking fun of the type of equipment they were utilizing to weigh a 1000# ish car.

As to the "usual and customary 5# over", why does tech get to assume that your car and driver are the same condition post race as you were post qualifying? That's less than a gallon of fuel, as much weight that I've lost in a given race day, or a really long stay in the bathroom.

Yes I do mean a massive truck scale. It was huge about 30 ft long and 10 ft wide all in 1 piece. as in single piece of steel! It was a massive truck scale. It was probably meant to measure huge loads of dirt, not an 800 lb car including driver!

They did put a quart bottle of water on the scale and it did not change the scale reading at all!

I suspect that there may have been other incidents that weekend from what I heard.

[TimH]

They did put a quart bottle of water on the scale and it did not change the scale reading at all!

Case closed.

[Daryl DeArman]

Yes I do mean a massive truck scale. It was huge about 30 ft long and 10 ft wide all in 1 piece. as in single piece of steel! It was a massive truck scale. It was probably meant to measure huge loads of dirt, not an 800 lb car including driver!

They did put a quart bottle of water on the scale and it did not change the scale reading at all!

I know that could be the case. My job brings me in and out of trucking terminals on a regular basis. I utilize various truck, platform and lift truck scales almost daily. The very large truck scales that measure up to 270,000# typically round to the nearest 20#. If you weighed 790 it would read 800# and continue to show 800# even if you added another 19.9#. It won't register anything until there's at least 10# on it.

The smaller truck scales, like you are speaking of typically read in 5# increments, sometimes 2#, just depends on what software the user utilizes. I have no idea what they were using for processor and display if it was reading in less than 1# increments on a platform of that size.

In any event, no matter what they were using or how accurate/inaccurate, or the resolution utilized, isn't there something in the GCR somewhere that says basically the "scales are the scales"?

[John Nesbitt]

...

In any event, no matter what they were using or how accurate/inaccurate, or the resolution utilized, isn't there something in the GCR somewhere that says basically the "scales are the scales"?

See post 124.


In the mid-2000's, the scales at the Glen consistently read about 5 pounds low. The regulars knew it, and adjusted accordingly. I remember at my first event there, we had a scare when I crossed the scales at 1101. Kevin had the car trimmed to finish a race about 10 over. After that, we took the scales into account.

"The scales are the scales."

[Jnovak]

I agree but he still let us go! Look him up and tell him he screwed up!

This was around 1992 or 93

[t walgamuth]

If you have been to IRP you may have seen this SCALE!

I have been to IRP many times in my life, mostly back in the sixties when I was in hi school and lived less than an hour away in Greencastle. I had the pleasure of watching Foyt Andretti Jones Hurtibise and many other american greats there. I was there when Mario won his first Indy race. He qualified on the pole but spun off course in the first turn. By the time he got restarted the field had passed him twice. He passed them all twice and was back in the lead by halfway. I think it was a 150 mile race. Last time I watched a race was on the 5/8 oval...midgets. I was there for an autocross most recently. Great memories!