Read the rules very carefully!
Check EVERYTHING!
Read the rules very carefully!
Check EVERYTHING!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
When the protest was done is the problem.
[QUOTE=aerobullet;579992]
Laura Hayes won the first Hoozier Super Tour Major of the weekend.
Congrats, you were robbed!
I was there and the SCCA had us all in impound after Q1 when they could have checked then and she would have lost her time and not the race, even if they were not using common sense.
1"-3" is not the same as 1.000" - 3.000". That is why the comment was made that the tolerance is a 1/2". Refer to ASTM.
I hope I am not the only one that was taught the Least Significant Digit rule.
Greg
That Least Significant Digit rule you refer to is very poorly written (surprise):Originally Posted by Greg Bruns
The following specifications shall meet the standards set below unless otherwise specified or unrestricted inthe individual category or class preparation rules. Any specification not listed herein shall meet stock factoryspecifications unless otherwise specified or unrestricted in the individual category or class preparation rules.For these specifications, the tolerance shall be equivalent to 1?2 of the final digit of the specification (e.g. .01”tolerance equals +/- .005”).
What does the phrase "THESE SPECIFICATIONS" refer to: the following specs, any spec not listed herein, or those spec'd in the class prep rules?
As to the tolerance being equivalent to 1/2 of the final digit of the specification, if the final digit is a 3, then tolerance would be 1.5 If they meant anything different, they should have said something different.
Missed the point & wrong
I will let you figure out how this is wrong. Hint: it is digit, not number.That Least Significant Digit rule you refer to is very poorly written (surprise):
The following specifications shall meet the standards set below unless otherwise specified or unrestricted inthe individual category or class preparation rules. Any specification not listed herein shall meet stock factoryspecifications unless otherwise specified or unrestricted in the individual category or class preparation rules.For these specifications, the tolerance shall be equivalent to 1?2 of the final digit of the specification (e.g. .01”tolerance equals +/- .005”).
What does the phrase "THESE SPECIFICATIONS" refer to: the following specs, any spec not listed herein, or those spec'd in the class prep rules?
As to the tolerance being equivalent to 1/2 of the final digit of the specification, if the final digit is a 3, then tolerance would be 1.5 If they meant anything different, they should have said something different.
If you were correct, that would give even more tolerance.
Define digit and get back to me.
I found this definition of a technicality:
2: A small detail, especially legal or related to rules, that NOBODY remembers or cares about unless they can abuse it for something.
If a tech inspector came to be and said the competitor that beat me had 1/16 more valve lift than me - I would protest. If he said the car was 10 lbs underweight, I would protest.
If he said the tailpipe was 1/16 too short or two long, I would be embarrassed to protest. Because the next time it might be me.
Unfortunately, some times a poorly written rule is not exposed until something like this happens. Now for a straight pipe the rule seems very straightforward (pun intended) but needs a tolerance. Like within 1 - 3" +/- .063 and you can add from a plumb line from the back of the body, etc. I have Frank Schultheis books at home and will take a look how they handled things.
But I see no way a 2" pipe with a 90 degree bend CAN be legal without a tolerance. So anyone with an exhaust like that should get a ruling from tech.
ChrisZ
PS - How do I remove the attachment??
An illegal car was DQed for being illegal?
For 56 years, or at least the last 39, people who got caught out by this rule, beat themselves up for being sloppy and poorly preparing their cars. They learned their lesson, as did other racers around them, and moved on.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
[QUOTE=Greg Bruns;580140]Time to start understanding how Tech functions. This was a 'post' race item to be checked. Was a formal requirement in the past to check at least two things. Not sure it is still formally required but it could still be part of a regions tech procedure. There is a good chance there was no awareness of the checklist earlier after Q1 qual. I would say it is not part of the tech ethos to warn everyone ahead of time about what will be checked during post race inspection.
Brian
Last edited by Hardingfv32; 03.21.19 at 4:09 PM.
It is the next unstated (not visiable?) decimal position to the right.Define digit and get back to me.
Brian
Someone should tell Hayes to file an appeal based on a tolerance application. I believe she still has time.
Brian
[QUOTE=Greg Bruns;580140]the SCCA has tolerance specs in the GCR. Some items have their own tolerance spec and this can sometimes be difficult to find. But i assume that if you want to use that specific tolerance to your advantage then you had better know exactly where it is located in the GCR! I do not know the tolerance spec on this issue.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Wow, that really is poorly written. It looks like it's trying to state a few things:
- That standards and specifications described in the "Measurement Standards" section can be overridden by individual category or class preparation rules
- That values not specified anywhere else shall default to those described by the stock factory specifications
- That tolerances on specified values with neither stated tolerance bounds nor the words "absolute maximum" or "absolute minimum" shall follow the "rounding method" described in ASTM E29, in which the implied tolerance is equal to one half of the rightmost significant digit place value. For example, if the value is given as 0.02", the implied tolerance would be +/- 0.005"; or if the value is given as 3", the implied tolerance would be +/- 0.5"; but if the value is given instead as 3.0", the implied tolerance would be +/- 0.05".
However, as noted elsewhere, there seems to be some ambiguity due to missing punctuation, an overloading of the word "specification", and unclear binding of the pronouns "this" and "these" to other parts of the text. So maybe the way I'm reading it differs from the intent?
All of which is to say: is the actual limit on the extension of the exhaust pipe from the body effectively "an absolute minimum of 0.500 [-0.000] inches and an absolute maximum of 3.500 [+0.000] inches"?
Jeff
Can't find the emoticon for the middle digit...Define digit and get back to me.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
A digit IS a number - for our purposes, any of the numeric symbols 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,
https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/digit.html
It looks to me like the GCR needs this area cleaned up a bit.
Unfortunately for her, the rules are the rules. Many of us spend a lot of time and money adhering to the rules, all of them. I've seen a competitor ejected for 0.1cc in 1 cylinder of the engine. Did that 0.1cc really make him win? No, but the rules are the rules.
And if this one thing was overlooked or ignored, what other rules may that car not be adhering to? They were doing her a favor. Imagine winning the runoffs and getting DQ'd for something that may seem arbitrary.
Rules are the rules, for all of us. Don't like them? Get them changed.
Why so much arguing over what the tolerance is ??
It's already stated in the rules - 1" to 3" - that's a 2" tolerance, WHICH IS HUGE !!
If you can't hit within that window, hand the hacksaw to someone who can.
That being said, a non-performance-enhancing item like this should have been noted in the logbook as "correct before next event" and not resulted in a disqualification.
Glenn
And they are all Arabic
For all of you saying this rule is black and white I am not so sure. As with the photo I showed of my car it is not a straight measurement. No idea what type of exhaust Laura had.
After many emails with Rick Harris he said the rule could be cleaned up as to what is "terminating". I opened request to the comp board to clarify this rule. Again straight pipe out the back, no problem the termination point is the end of the pipe (the farthest point of the system away).
Anyway Rick Harris said the rule is now under investigation and with my letter there will be no action until they make a ruling (at least for Hallett).
Darren
Last edited by Darren Brown; 03.21.19 at 8:31 PM.
When the rule was written, it was at least fairly black and white, since at the time, exhaust pipes all stuck straight out the back. Now, with the noise meter coming into play, some cars have a bend in the pipe so as to point the exhaust away from the meters.
How the heck to rewrite it with that in mind, and keeping the same 1-3" measurement, I haven't a clue, other than to ditch that measurement all together.
We are an amateur club, not a professional race series (although some people think that way). Professional series have pre-race scrutineering and lawyers and engineers fighting tooth and nail. We are trying to encourage people to come to the SCCA, not turn them away. Unless they are cheating, this car made it through 2 qualifying sessions and maybe even the entire Sebring Majors and no one brought it up? - if that is true then, it is a "got you" moment.
I have raced against people with 1300 engines, run 25 lbs underweight and other illegal modifications. Some of them have withdrawn rather than subject themselves to teardown. Personally I wish they were not on the track to start with. A known illegal car is a danger to the other drivers who have put the time, money and effort into fielding a legal car.
As far as the Runnoffs go, probably more people have been disqualified on a technicality than a performance advantage. Which is why pre-race inspection is so important. IndyCar wants to put 33 legal cars on the line to start. Nascar....well there is a lot of creative rules interpretation going on there.
Anyone who idolizes Smokey Yunick, Mark Donahue, Roger Penske, Colin Chapman must realize that at some point in their careers they were considered cheaters. What they did was deliberate in order to push the rules.
Just so people can avoid getting caught, here are some rules you probably never even considered:
B. Size of Numbers and Class Letters
Numbers shall be at least 8 inches high, with a 1.5 inch stroke on a contrasting background (rear winged Formula
cars shall have as large a number as possible on their rear wing side plates). Metallic (reflective) numbers
and class letters are prohibited. The distance between 2 numbers shall be at least as wide as the stroke of
the numbers. Class letters shall be at least 4 inches high, with a 1/2 inch stroke on a contrasting background.
2 Crash helmets approved by the Snell Foundation ............ Each driver’s helmet shall be labeled with a minimum of the driver’s name.
4. Socks made of accepted fire resistant material. (when they do a spot check on that = that is a trip!)
2. Forward braces and portions of the main hoop subject to contact by the driver’s helmet (as seated
normally and restrained by seatbelt/shoulder harness) shall be padded with non-resilient material such
as Ethafoam® or Ensolite®, or other similar material with a minimum thickness of one-half (1/2) inch.
Padding meeting SFI spec 45.1 is recommended.
The head rest on non-integral seats shall have a minimum area of 36 square inches and be padded with a minimum
of one inch thick padding. It is strongly recommended that padding meet SFI spec 45.2 or FIA Sports
Car Head Rest Material. The head rest shall be capable of withstanding a force of two-hundred (200) lbs.* in
a rearward direction. The head rest support shall be such that it continues rearward or upward from the top
edge in a way that the driver’s helmet can not hook over the pad.
* Don't know how they test this....
3. The use of any direct acting, tube type shock absorber(s) mounted in a longitudinal, vertical plane
and acting through the standard mounting points. Spring shocks and linkage activated shocks are
prohibited. (Maybe I will protest all the Ron Chuck adapters as "linkage")
9. Caster, camber, and toe in/out settings are unrestricted. Offset link pin suspension bushings and
alternate locating spacers are permitted. Shims/spacers used solely for camber adjustment are
open. Clearancing of the link pin carrier and/or trailing arms to eliminate binding is permitted. No
other modifications to the link pin carrier are permitted. (except you still have to met the track dimensions - measured it lately?
5. Cam followers Minimum weight = 60.0 grams (do you have a letter from your engine builder - you will be held responsible - not him)
C. Reverse gear shall be operable from the driver’s seat. (this actually is more for your safety)
A. The frame/chassis shall be constructed of steel tubing of a maximum diameter or width of 4 inches and
be of a safe and suitable design. (check those D13s)
C. The rear bodywork must have the ability to enclose the original Volkswagen fan shroud mounted in its
stock location (see illustration in Section C.12). (does anyone even HAVE a fan shroud to test this.)
D. The top of the rear bodywork shall extend from the back of the firewall to a point at least 16 inches
to the rear of the centerline of the rear axle. (so if you cut it back to make your exhaust legal.....)
J. A firewall to prevent passage of flame and debris between the engine area and driver’s compartment
shall extend the full width of the cockpit and be at least equal to the top of the carburetor in vertical
height.
P. The front suspension upright(s) (shock absorber mounts), shock absorbers, and/or trailing arms shall
not be faired in by covering or shrouding away from the air-stream except that the front shocks may
be mounted behind the shock uprights. (how do you do this and still meet the rule above - or are you okay if you read this far.)
B. Reinspection
Throughout the racing season, a check of the condition and legality of driver’s safety equipment should periodically
be done by scrutineers in impound by group or class with the concurrence of the Race Director or
Chief Steward. (that is why you need to check those sox!)
B. Fuel Sample Acquisition
All cars shall be equipped with an accessible sampling port/valve/device located in a fuel line between the
fuel tank or fuel cell and the carburetors or fuel injection system or in an unused carburetor port to allow safe
acquisition of a fuel sample. If possible, the port/valve/device should be located outside the engine compartment.
The sampling port/ valve/device will be installed and used by the competitor to obtain the sample without
fuel leaking, spraying or squirting. Siphoning of fuel directly from the fuel tank or fuel cell or removing a
hose or line is not allowed.
How much fuel is needed?
Competitors will provide all the necessary and appropriate tools to obtain a fuel sample. (do you have all the hose and fittings necessary?
More as I come across them
ChrisZ
To determine if someone is cheating/non-compliant you need a rulebook with enforceable rules and some method to enforce them.
Rules are either safety-related, procedural, or performance related. It may be a matter of degree, but generally people don't knowingly break rules to go slower.
Pre-race inspection is just a courtesy to the competitors and doesn't mean jack squat as the car is not held in parc ferme. NASCAR catches things here and fines people even though it was never raced that way because they can and they're mad you attempted to break rules.
that freaking headrest rule....
Once HANS became mandatory that needed to be reduced, and with the current snell helmets, it needs to be effectively eliminated. There so much damn stuff surrounding my head I barely fit in a car that I fit fine in with a Snell '00 helmet and no HANS.
I shouldn't be required to sell my car because of rules creep preventing my fit.
Number, Numeral, Digit
In 153, the number is one hundred fifty three.
It is made up of the numerals or digits 1, 5, 3
Ignore what I posted!
This was previously stated!!!
This is an interesting topic and just what part of 1" to 3" did the exhaust not meet? Or was it the overall length actually the issue? Chris Z previous post is interesting in it brings to light some issues that most people never pay attention to an unless it is a safety issue, for most parts is not a performance advantage. The headers on my cars goes over the top so to get the length that is preferred the end out of the collector has to go down and then turns out just to get it to fit inside the overall length. It is not done to defeat sound control. So with a 1"-3" beyond the body work is it measured at the most rearward end or the closest? Remember the diameter of the pipe is usually 2" OD and sticking out to the side. Or the furthest distance from the nearest bodywork?
I agree that depending on what rule was broken and just how sever it was broken a note to fix it before the next race would have been the preferred solution.
My cars are close to the overall length and at the runoffs it was something that was check during qualifying and tech would often use a plumb boob at the ends to obtain the measurement and I had to point out that you can't do that unless you are on a perfectly level surface and that they need a square at each end to do so on a sloped surface. I would even have to explain that measuring from near the ground on one end and nearly a foot off the ground on the other end was not accurate and after describing it they would say oh you are right. So the method of taking the measurement can sometimes cause a problem.
Ed
Finally, a clear resolution
From the preliminary October tech bulletin, posted on scca.com: (Text in square brackets [], is struck through in original.)
FV1. #27398 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Allowed Modifications E&OIn FV, GCR section 9.1.1.C.5.D.1, make changes as follows:"Replacement of standard exhaust system with any exhaust system, provided that the closest part of the opening from whichexhaust gases exit is [no closer than]an absolute minimum of one (1) inch behind the rearmost part of the body and the farthestpart of the opening is [no farther than]an absolute maximum of four (4) inches behind the rearmost part of the body."
We now have clarity around this rule. Unfortunately, the driver penalized at Rd. Atlanta is not made whole.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
better yet, what is the purpose of the rule?
Safety.
Don't want the exhaust exiting under bodywork. Don't want exhaust sticking out the back 2 feet so it impales somebody that runs into the back of you. So they had to come up with some distance range.
so many better ways......
Exactly. It is a safety item, not a performance item.
The fact that there has been such a discussion around the rule indicates that the GCR did not frame it clearly. It supported multiple interpretations. It needed clarification as to intent.
I have on a number of occasions requested the CRB to clarify GCR language that officials were interpreting in different ways. Typically, the CRB response was that the rule was adequate as written (i.e. that every official should be able to divine the intent, and in the same way every time). The fact that the CRB did clarify this rule is highly indicative.
The Rd. Atlanta case was wrong from the get-go. All three levels of officials failed the driver.
The measurement should never have been a post-race measurement at a Majors/Super Tour. It is a practice well understood (I thought) that safety items should not affect race outcomes. This should have been logbooked and not the subject of a penalty. This is on the Chief Steward for not riding herd on the tech chief.
When the driver protested, the SOM should have realized that there was ambiguity, and that the written rule did not express the likely intent. Same with the COA. They should have involved the CRB, and got a clarification (errors & omissions).
It was a perfect trifecta: the event officials got it wrong, the SOM got it wrong, and the COA got it wrong. The driver paid the price.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Really? So the water is slightly less muddy. A simple way to solve this issue is that the exhaust must terminate outside of the bodywork. Remember that there is an overall length for FV so no need to give a maximum length. So if you exit out to the side how are you going to measure it? Remember that nothing can go beyond the center line of the tires so it can't stick out beyond the car.
Also if your engine cover terminates to the rear at exactly 16" behind the center of the axle but your overall length can go more than 4" beyond that you can't go to the furthest distance which you are allowed within the overall length. Of course adding a tab to the bodywork so you are with in the 4" is an easy way to fix that.
Ed
A handful of FV people failed their community.
This matter may be the biggest waste of time that SCCA has ever seen ...... and to be considered in that company is not something to be proud of!
FV needs 100% focus on cutting costs and increasing participation. Spending years clarifying rules that can be checked by a 3 year old with a ruler is insane! If someone cannot be bothered with such a simple task, why should we assume they can be bothered by a more difficult task like checking combustion chamber volume.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
BTW, packaging of exhaust systems within bodywork, is not just a safety item. If that was the case, why are people claiming ambiguity and contesting definition of "termination", etc. Why? Because the builder of the bodywork is trying to achieve performance and the builder of the exhaust is trying to achieve performance. In one case, the builder of an aftermarket body did not stress to the people installing the bodywork that they needed to beware of how the new bodywork would interface with the car and exhaust. In the other case, the exhaust system builder was stretching the "terminates" definition to try and package a longer exhaust system within tight bodywork. FV has always been about maximizing the packaging of components within very defined bodywork parameters. Claiming exhaust length is "just a safety item" would be the same as claiming rear wing placement on an FA car was just a safety item. Safety is an element, but certainly not the only element.
While the drivers of the DQed cars may not be party to the technical matters involved, it is their responsibility to make sure their cars are legal, just as they are that their combustion chamber sizes are legal. That a toddler with a ruler can measure this dimension, clearly shows who was at fault. Setting tailpipe length is FV 101. Wasting dozens of hours of dozens of people's time was a disservice to the FV community.
Last edited by problemchild; 09.11.19 at 9:48 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Another question might be is this rule different for every open wheel class, and if so, why so?
Agreed that it's not just a safety item, but my magic 8 ball told me that's what the original intent of the rule was (which is what was asked).
Because, since people started racing with the SCCA they've tried to get many performance rules changed under the guise of safety. Also, when somebody gets DQ'd over some minor deal, they like to argue it's a safety issue, not a performance one, should have been caught pre-race and/or noted in their log book.
While I agree on fault, clearly that toddler (or adult) is going to have issue measuring this dimension when the word termination as used in this context, is subjective and when that measurement looks really, really close to 63/64ths on that ruler or 3 1/64th, or the rearmost part of the body work and the exhaust don't "terminate" on the same plane.
Yes. Because you never knew what Uncle Jethro was going to pull out of his shed and bring to the track, so they needed to define some things that most didn't think was necessary.
Correct!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Even if I am using a ruler to make a measurement I have the right to know the tolerance being used.
The E&O change is a clear statement/indication that the appeal that was filed was valid according to the GCR.
Brian
Yes it would appear to be a complete and total exoneration. Or perhaps considering the clarification, it will be an "absolute" exoneration.
I had just assumed that the drivers of the cars that were recently found illegal, were sloppy, or disrespectful of the rules. I did not know that the actual measuring process was flawed. Perhaps some one could conduct a seminar on how to use a ruler. I found this tutorial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzW2sdCe228 If anyone still needs assistance with this, please pm or email me and I will do my best to help you.
It is hard to imagine that the class survived 56 years without this E&O change.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
There was very likely nothing wrong with the actual measurement. What was at issue was the tolerance involved.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
There are currently 5 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 5 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote