SCCA Time Trials - no national Formula / Sports Racer class

[Craig71188]

So, just curious to see if anyone else had any interest in this program. I was interested since it was a little looser in its rules and it might allow some older cars a place to get out and run. I am thinking about:
Older F500 with non-conforming cages
FV with 1600cc motors (Solo V)
Banshee chassis
FF with wider wheels or non-stock intake - or inboard suspension cars not (necessarily) included in a vintage or club class
Older F2000 that are not real competitive, or may not be included in a club class locally
Toyota WSC
SCCA Spec Racer w/Renault drivetrain or Gen 1 Ford.
Other "sports racers" not really competitive or conforming to P1 or P2

With the limited number of "open wheel" track day opportunities, I saw it as an opportunity to get these cars out if one didn't want to race wheel to wheel, or might not want to have to build a very specific motor package for an SCCA class. I sent and email to Hayward Wagner and got a thoughtful and extended response that in a nutshell said - we don't think we could fill a 30 car group, and we plan to be so successful with the other groups we can't risk it. Also, we want to attract new people and formula cars can run in all but two SCCA programs, this and Rally.

Am I in a very small minority in having any interest? Curious to see if the interest would really be as small as they see it.

[Garey Guzman]

When i saw a championship announced last year, I immediately thought I would take my recently acquired FSV! Then I saw there were no open wheel classes. It might be fun to do but I likely wouldn't do many, other than as shake-downs and tests.

[T-Tom]

When the original e-mail came a while back, I initially had an interest. But when I read that there were no open-wheel class(es) I deleted everything and dropped any further thought. And to be honest, until my car is ready to run again, no one could count on my attendance.

[CM/FFdriver]

I also asked if the Formula Fords could run the time trials and got a blank stare from the person I asked (high Up person) and then no answer, I then thought to myself "Hmm... you don't want your Miata to be passed in the turns" and left it at that.

Ben

[Dave Cutchins]

The way I understand the new TT rules, individual regions can opt to have classing for OW and SR, but national events will not.

[RussMcB]

I had the same reaction as others. Sounds like a fun, low(er) stress event and series. I contacted the national office and they said there are no plans for OW race cars, at least in the near future. It might have been related to the number of classes. I forget.

But Dave's right. Regional programs can include open wheel cars, and here in the southeast I know several who "TT" their formula cars. Have been for years and will surely continue. No reason not to.

[Garey Guzman]

I ran a couple TTs they had locally at Nashville Superspeedway when it was still open. I can't stand that track/course but it was local and I could get behind the wheel of my race car so I did it. I would go to Bowling Green to run that track too, even a half track but probably wouldn't travel much farther than that for a TT.

It was fun though! I just prefer w2w

[EricP]

I’d do it for shake drown/testing of sorts but i couldn’t be counted as a regular “series” competitor.

[TedV]

I heard news of the National TT a couple of posts before it went out for national public consumption. I Posted my input about the need for formula car classes being included since they are part of the program that includes Time Trial and Hillclimbs already in use for years.

I received "Thank you for your input."..... wonder which meaning they intended?

[ChristopherBernard]

I'd definitely be interested. If the tracks were close enough it'd be a great way to get out and have some fun. I'm not concerned with any championships as its "apples and oranges" with a motley group of sports racers and formula cars. It would be interesting to see what comes out. Maybe I could drop a new engine in my Kokopelli and see what happens!

[Farrout48]

SCCA has demonstrated that they have no interest in opening up the new National TT series either to the Formula/SR cars or to many of the GCR classes. As has been said, Regions can chose to allow these cars in their events. In SEDIV, most of the TT events will allow the Formula/SR etc cars as they have always done.

National TT has been patterned after the Track Night In America "TNIA" program. All they have added to it is timing and a classing structure - all necessary for a competition based program. Heyward has demonstrated no interest in the Formula car community. His focus is on the younger drivers with production cars. He disbanded the then existing National TT Board and created a replacement using his TNIA friends. It is no surprise that TTN looks like it is TNIA on steroids. SCCA National and the BOD have fully supported his efforts.

[no-cones]

Like many of you, I was very interested in this event and disappointed that they will not be including OW or SR. In fact if you track my posts I had planned on getting rid of my Solo Vee and purchasing another OW car that I could change gear ratios and run both TT and Autox. SUGGESTION.......We petition the powers in charge to include us. Remember is our club !!!!

[Craig71188]

While a fully expect the BOD to respond with a "thanks for your input" type of answer, if there are enough people interested, I will try to orchestrate a request / petition. I see the C-Mod Facebook page picked this up, I will be curious to see how many more weigh in.

Also, if F / SR could get it's own run group at national events (huge "if"), there is no reason why there couldn't be multiple classes within (You know SCCA loves having more classes!!!). The biggest hurdle is filling 30 slots consistently for a run group, regardless of mix.

[RussMcB]

My main (brief) interest was, I thought attending a national championship at NCM was a LOT more attainable/feasible than a Runoffs bid, which I could never (easily) afford, Plus, my current car isn't Runoffs eligible.

W2W is my primary interest, but I'm always interested in more opportunities to race, especially if the cost is less. This disappointment for me is mild, not enough for me to write a letter. It just felt like a slight.

[ewcmr2]

National TT has been patterned after the Track Night In America "TNIA" program. Heyward has demonstrated no interest in the Formula car community. His focus is on the younger drivers with production cars.

TNiA is targeting NEW scca/track drivers. I’ve not seen anything that would indicate they are looking for any certain AGE drivers.

[Garey Guzman]

My main (brief) interest was, I thought attending a national championship at NCM was a LOT more attainable/feasible than a Runoffs bid, which I could never (easily) afford....

My brother from another mother....

[yoitsmatt]

I was kind of disappointed as well, working with my FM for solo i kind of lost interest in prepping my corvette, and would love to change gearing and have some track fun, but not sure why we were excluded? i assume the powers that be decided real race cars have plenty of other options, but as someone new to these cars this seems like a no brainer to let these cars in as well??

[Dave Cutchins]

The reality is, it's a financial decision. SCCA does not allow OW and SR on track with larger production cars and it is not financially feasible to dedicate two or more hours of track time and add an additional run group for a small number of cars.

The last SCCA TT I participated in had a total of only 27 entrants spread over 3 run groups and that was at a track owned by the sponsoring region.

The only way I see a change in SCCA's TTN decision would be a fairly large number of OW and SR participants (30 plus), but that would be reducing available track time to the other groups. I don't see this decision changing unless interest fades or participation does not meet expectations.
For now, I will continue to Hill Climb and run under the old rule set.

[no-cones]

Ok, maybe it is time to start writing letters and phoning.

[Josh R.]

I don't think it's just a financial decision. Fact of the matter is the SCCA is pretty much the ONLY club/org with no TT/TA series (yes, some regions/divs have their own) and they're getting left in the dust. This is just bringing them up to standard. Gridlife, GTA, NASA don't have OW cars either. I think the goal is to parlay the successes (and drivers) of TNiA and autox into on-track competition, which I'm happy to see even if I can't participate. And lemme tell ya, starting in about 2 weeks my schedule is FULL of activities for the next 5-6 months basically, without the TT Nats events or club racing so ¯\_(?)_/¯.

That said, IF I could participate in the PittRace and NCM TT Nats I probably would.

[racerjon1]

Hi everyone,

I'm Jon Krolewicz - the Time Trials Program Manager for the SCCA. Many of you know me. If you don't know me you may notice my join date: I didn't just join to post in this thread.

My first track event was in 1997 at an SCCA "Solo 1" in my Van Diemen RF83 FF. Since then I have run Formula 2000, Prototypes, and have most recently run my 1986 Swift DB-3/Honda in FF - including the Runoffs at Mid Ohio and Indy. At Solo Nationals the past three years I have driven a Reynard FF in C-Modified.

Heyward W. - the director of the Experiential Department which the Time Trials Program is part of, has run C-Modified and F-Modified at Solo Nationals the past three years. Time Trials Board SCCA BOD liaison Charlie D. has run and campaigned a 1985 Reynard in SCCA Solo events.

Each of us - along with three members at large (Kathy B., Bob T., Tom O.,) and two other BOD liaisons (Jim W., and when Jim termed out this year, he was replaced by Jeff Z.) make up the TTB which discussed, debated, solicited input, adjusted and formed the National Time Trials Classing structure and event format.

I mention that because I want it to be clear that the exclusion of Formula Cars, Sports Racers and Specials from the National Event format was not done out of a lack of interest in those style of cars. It was also not a decision made easily, but one out of current necessity. The decision was two-fold.

1) Economic Necessity. Tracks are expensive, in order to have sustainable events we must make the most use of available time and track space. Groups need to be able to be filled, and when we crunched the numbers - if EVERY Formula Car/Sports Racer/Special who entered an SCCA TT or HillClimb event nationwide showed up for a Time Trials National Tour - it would still not fill a group.

Because these cars may not run on track with sedans, mixing groups was not an option either. (I don't think any one of us wants to have an issue and potentially have a metal-to-metal with a 4,100-lb Nissan GTR.)

To correct the financial issue - either F/SR/S drivers would need to pay more in entry fees, or sedan drivers would need to subsidize by paying more. Driving entry costs up would not help participation in either direction, and market research shows that going up in cost to allow our cars would probably drive participation down to below sustainable levels anyway. (Econ 101/equilibrium pricing, etc.).

2) Maximizing Overall Participation. Even if F/SR/S drivers were OK with entry fees three to four times as much (based on average attendance at TT events nationwide), or sedan drivers were OK with subsidizing other entries, including groups which we expect to get 8-12 cars would disenfranchise 20-25 drivers per event. It's tough to decide WHO to exclude, but in the end we made decisions based on allowing the greatest number of enthusiasts to participate. Despite the longer description for the financial reason, this played just as much if not more of a factor.


The goals of the program:
I do want to thank those of you in this thread who do have an understanding of the program goals - in particular the overarching goal to attract "new" people. I put new in quotes because it's more nuanced than that - it's about creating a competition motorsports home for those who do not have one. If you notice, we have not created classes for many of the SCCA Road Racing Classes at all. 80-horsepower H-Prod cars go in the came class as 400-HP winged Honda Civics. Any car on <200 TW or non-DOT tires - like Spec Miata, Improved Touring C, etc. would all go into the two Unlimited Classes. Street Prepared, Prepared, and Street Modified Solo classes are all lumped into "Unlimited" as well.

It does look a lot like Track Night in America - groups are based on experience rather than classing. This is so that the SCCA can continue to offer the best and most timely chance for enthusiasts to compete. Autocrossing allows people to compete who's ink might not be dry on their driver's license. Road Racing allows drivers who might have ever seen a track to go wheel-to-wheel on their first day - either through the Club Race Experience, or Drivers School. We saw the opportunity to allow the same advantage in TT without days and days of Track Events to work your way up and have made it an integral part of the program.

Classing is designed around the lowest barriers to entry. Track Night has had more than 24,000 entries - 9,200 in 2018 - and 80% of those cars would fit in the two lowest Time Trials Categories: Sport (60%) and Tuner (20%). Creating classes for and dedicating track time/space to cars which can be and are daily-driven is the most beneficial to the largest number of automobile enthusiasts.

The format of the events are designed around what regions can do - no matter their resources. The "Time Attack" format is done with lapping and transponders. The "TrackSprint" format is a point-to-point run on the track which can be done with autocross timing lights - enabling regions which may only have autocross equipment a blueprint for holding events on track. A few regions have reached out and are doing exactly that this year.

Formula Cars/Sports Racers and the future:
We did create suggested classing for F/SR/S for regions who do have the economic ability and local interest to include those cars. They are as follows:

TTS: Time Trials Special. (For any open wheel, sports racer or other vehicle which doesn’t fit into any other class. Cars must meet safety requirements for SCCA HillClimb or GCR.)
TTA: Time Trials Atlantic. (SCCA Road Race legal Formula Atlantic cars, Formula B/1000 cars, P1 and P2.)
TTW: Time Trials Winged. (SCCA Legal Formula Continental/F2000, Star Formula Mazda, Formula Enterprise, Sports 2000.)
TTN: Time Trials Non-Winged. (SCCA Legal Formula F, Formula 500, Solo Vee, SRF3.)
TTV: Time Trials V: (SCCA Legal Formula Vee, Formula First, SRF.)

We do hope and it is our goal that regional programs grow, and that regions are able to run F/SR/S cars at events where it is economically feasable. For the TrackSprint-only events, we absolutely encourage regions to open up registration to Formula Cars and such, because there is not a mixed-group component.

We hope that as the program grows nationwide and more events happen which do allow these cars, we can even open up the TTNT to them. But the proof of concept and entries must be there first.

On a final note - the TTB has sent the phrase "Thank you for your input" in response to exactly two suggestions. They each used profanity and insults in their letters, and when that happens we disengage. Neither of them were Formula Car folks.

So, although some may feel and paraphrase our response as saying that, I want to be clear that we have tried very hard to give comprehensive and thought-out remarks: Even if the ultimate decision isn't what the letter author is looking for. The Formula Car letters have been answered with a shorter, but content-similar answer to the one I have given above.

I also see comments about writing letters and making phone calls. For the National Structure - this is frozen for the next two years. We have added a category which will be finalized int he next two weeks, but there will be no category/prep rule changes until after 2020.

If you want to change it - think globally and act locally. The SEDIV is running Formula Cars at a bunch of their events. Show up. Run. Blue Ridge Region is running a Track Sprint at VIR. Show up. Run. Talk to your regions about having TT events. Let them know that it's formula cars requesting it. and then... Show up and run.

I'll try to bring my car out even, because I think it would be cool if my racecar could run in the program I'm in charge of.


- Jon

[TedV]

Jon, Thank you! Your reply is much better than the interest isn't there reply I got when I knew there was interest at least in the South East.

So, the OW and SR folks need to contact the event organizers before just showing up though, right?

[Dave Cutchins]

Hi Jon,
Good explanation.
When you have the chance, check your SCCA email.
i sent you some questions on Hill climbs.

[fastkart]

Thanks Jon! Sounds like a great program to get more race-minded folks involved. Hopefully, a good percentage will eventually migrate to wheel-to-wheel. I race a formula car, but, I'm now interested in taking my Miata to one of the TT's in hopes of helping as many drivers as possible. Like you said: GET INVOLVED!

[racerjon1]

Jon, Thank you! Your reply is much better than the interest isn't there reply I got when I knew there was interest at least in the South East.

So, the OW and SR folks need to contact the event organizers before just showing up though, right?

You're welcome - and I can see where "there isn't interest" might be an interpretation, as a lot of the reasoning is, "there are not enough Formula Car Time Trial entries to include them yet." We know there is interest, but as you see in my explanation, it's a complicated when you consider everything as % of enthusiasts.

In terms of what to do with local events (anything not a "Time Trials National Tour") the first thing to do is just check. Pennsylvania HillClimb Association has HillClimbs, but also two events at Summit Point which are most likely going to be done in "TrackSprint" style. As I mentioned SEDIV will be including open wheel in a lot of their events, but not all.

So first - check the event specifics when you see registration open. The classes being run should be included in the supps or schedule.

Second - if you see an event that registration isn't open for - contact the region and ask. It's very possible you might get a "we're not planning on it" but interest could sway things.

Third - This forum is probably the best place to create interest. It could be - and probably could be - that we don't see entries because of awareness. Starting threads here or on facebook groups about potential events and trying to gain momentum takes time and effort, but it's how events grow.

For instance, maybe the approach is, "______ Region is having a Time Trial - if we can get 15 Formula Car entries, they will make sure we have a group." Or, "______ region is doing a TrackSprint, it's like a HillClimb or Autocross but on track without cones or rocks and trees, let's get a group together to go."

We talk about being a club and writing letters to change things, but when I see success, it's often because enthusiasts and members took tangible action.

One group I look at which is interesting to me is the Right Coast Formula Ford series - I know when I went to an event a couple of years ago they had bought group time from a club renting the track for a weekend. (I think a Time Trials/Track Event Club.) Right now, there are a few small Toyota/Subaru clubs who specifically run the 86/BRZ model. They have been running the same way the RCFF has been - buying groups at smaller events. Now they have chapters coming to TTNT events in New England, California and Michigan. It could very well be that Formula Car TT groups need to start in the same place and grow from there.

We could probably get into a discussion here about Formula Car "decline" but the reality is it's probably systemic to recreating with cars in general. 30-50 years ago, if you wanted to get on track a dedicated car was almost certainly necessary. Once you're going to have a dedicated car, it may as well be a REAL racecar right? Now that even the most mundane of commuter cars make pretty dang good track cars, the necessity for a dedicated car isn't there. Those of us with the more specialized vehicles will have to create space for ourselves through this kind of effort.

Of course, in 30-50 years when road cars are not sold with steering wheels and all track cars are dedicated cars, maybe Formula Cars and Sports Racers come back. Of course, that doesn't help us now, so different efforts will be required.


- Jon

[racerjon1]

Thanks Jon! Sounds like a great program to get more race-minded folks involved. Hopefully, a good percentage will eventually migrate to wheel-to-wheel. I race a formula car, but, I'm now interested in taking my Miata to one of the TT's in hopes of helping as many drivers as possible. Like you said: GET INVOLVED!

Thank you, and i for sure think it can get more competition-minded folks involved. Although it isn't the *specific* goal to have TT drivers move up, we do know that creating a space where a lot of people can discover the SCCA and competition will help those who do have the desire/means to compete to do it through the SCCA. (Josh in this thread now has a Formula Mazda, and he started with an Integra, came and helped at Track Night, etc.)

Looking forward to seeing you at a TT!

[racerjon1]

Hi Jon,
Good explanation.
When you have the chance, check your SCCA email.
i sent you some questions on Hill climbs.

You're welcome Dave - sorry to have missed that email while I was on the road for the GLDiv conference. I just responded.


- Jon

[Josh R.]

(Josh in this thread now has a Formula Mazda, and he started with an Integra, came and helped at Track Night, etc.)

Haha! It actually all started with an ACR Neon and has been a bit longer path, but yes I'm an street car autoxer->time trialer->hillclimber->whatever I can with the FM.

BUT! Speaking to something Jon said a couple posts ago I'm planning on doing the WDCR TT at Summit Point at the end of this month. They don't have a specific run group for wings n things but they said they will shoehorn me in somewhere. So...FYI here's the first chance to get a group going!

[Craig71188]

Jon,
Thank you for your thoughtful input. I will be doing my best to get to some Cendiv / GL events this year where OW / SR is an option. I also like the idea of sharing events where OW / SR are welcome / will have a run group.

My smart-a#$ self can't help but make a remark about the "frozen for two years", but we just added another "tweener" class anyway situation with TT.

We will see where it goes and who comes out to play at the regional level when it's an option...

[Garey Guzman]

... They don't have a specific run group for wings n things but they said they will shoehorn me in somewhere. So...FYI here's the first chance to get a group going!

That's what was done for me when I ran the Nashville Superspeedway TTs. They would give us laps (3 or 4?) in groups of 3. I brought my DB4 FA so they put the 3 fastest cars behind me, sent me and probably less than 5 seconds later, sent the next car. No one got in anyone's way and it was great fun except for my DB4 issues. But a much better place for DB4 issues than in a race!

[Dave Cutchins]

Haha! It actually all started with an ACR Neon and has been a bit longer path, but yes I'm an street car autoxer->time trialer->hillclimber->whatever I can with the FM.
………… I'm planning on doing the WDCR TT at Summit Point at the end of this month. They don't have a specific run group for wings n things but they said they will shoehorn me in somewhere. So...FYI here's the first chance to get a group going!

They must have changed their position. A couple of years ago "if you bring 15 of your buddies we can make a run group for you" was the response.

Josh, check out The Pennsylvania hillclimb Association if you haven't already. There are two Formula Mazda cars that ran last season. One car ran FM and the other (2 driver car) ran FS (non-stock gears and 6-port Renesis motor).

BTW are you the person that bought Timm's car?

[Josh R.]

They must have changed their position. A couple of years ago "if you bring 15 of your buddies we can make a run group for you" was the response.

Josh, check out The Pennsylvania hillclimb Association if you haven't already. There are two Formula Mazda cars that ran last season. One car ran FM and the other (2 driver car) ran FS (non-stock gears and 6-port Renesis motor).

BTW are you the person that bought Timm's car?

Yep, I bought Timm's car and ran with PHA the past 3 years in the Integra.

What the WDCR people told me would probably happen is that they would put me in front of a group (time dependent) and once I caught the back of the pack (or got caught) I'd have to pit-in. Not ideal, and at Shenandoah that could happen pretty darn fast. But I really need/want seat time in this thing. Sorry to sidetrack...

[Dave Cutchins]

Yep, I bought Timm's car and ran with PHA the past 3 years in the Integra.

What the WDCR people told me would probably happen is that they would put me in front of a group (time dependent) and once I caught the back of the pack (or got caught) I'd have to pit-in. Not ideal, and at Shenandoah that could happen pretty darn fast. But I really need/want seat time in this thing. Sorry to sidetrack...

Congratulations, you will never go back to doors and a roof over your head. You bought a quick car. Timm, Dan and I had a lot of fun competing with each other. Are you planning on running FM or FS? Either way, I hope to see you at Jefferson.

[Josh R.]

Congratulations, you will never go back to doors and a roof over your head. You bought a quick car. Timm, Dan and I had a lot of fun competing with each other. Are you planning on running FM or FS? Either way, I hope to see you at Jefferson.

Depends. If I can get it back to FM trim I will do that. If I don't get to that I'll just run FS this year.

[ffhillclimber]

Depends. If I can get it back to FM trim I will do that. If I don't get to that I'll just run FS this year.

Josh,
Welcome to our open wheel group. I run a old Caldwell D9 FF1600. I usually run both of the PHA Summit Point events and a hillclimb or two. See you next month.
I also want to see us included in more or all SCCA TT events. I've been doing these for decades and enjoy them more than racing. I enjoy watching qualifying as much as the races, maybe more. Let's keep letting them know that we're out here and there is interest.
Stan

[Farrout48]

In response to a post above suggesting that more information be provided on the Regional events, take a look at the SEDIV TT FaceBook page. https://www.facebook.com/sedivtt/ This is an informational page to provide up-to-date info/schedules on the events being run under the SEDIV TT Program - both TT and TE. Sadly, it takes 3-4 months for SCCA to update their schedules in SportsCar magazine so this FB page will be more accurate.

SEDIV runs a TT program that includes both the TTN and the SEDIV Legacy classes. The Legacy classes are those that SEDIV has run since 1980. Essentially, all GCR classes, all Vintage classes, SEDIV Specials, Regional classes, and the SOLO based classes. There is a place for every car that meets the basic safety requirements. Each year, SEDIV runs a TT Championship program where each class (TTN and Legacy) will crown a Champion at year's end. Champions usually receive a SEDIV TT Champion jacket, hat and trophy.

[Josh R.]

Just found out about Indy Region SCCA having their first TT event at Putnam Park May 11. I inquired about the possibility of running Formula/Sports Racers but they said no, but maybe if there’s enough interest. So...if you’re interested please contact them. They won’t know there’s interest unless we let them know.

[RussMcB]

Just found out about Indy Region SCCA having their first TT event at Putnam Park May 11. I inquired about the possibility of running Formula/Sports Racers but they said no, …<snip>

Why wouldn't they (I wonder)? Why would a F/SR be any different?

Unless this is one of the new national series events ...

[Farrout48]

Why wouldn't they (I wonder)? Why would a F/SR be any different?

Unless this is one of the new national series events ...

This event is not listed as one of the SCCA TT National Tour events. But the Region has chosen to run their event under the National TT rules and car classing. Given their professed lack of experience in sponsoring TT and TE, it makes sense for them to keep it simple.

[ffhillclimber]

While a fully expect the BOD to respond with a "thanks for your input" type of answer, if there are enough people interested, I will try to orchestrate a request / petition. I see the C-Mod Facebook page picked this up, I will be curious to see how many more weigh in.

Also, if F / SR could get it's own run group at national events (huge "if"), there is no reason why there couldn't be multiple classes within (You know SCCA loves having more classes!!!). The biggest hurdle is filling 30 slots consistently for a run group, regardless of mix.

Count me in Craig.