Pans

[cjahn]

So....I am rebuilding my engine.

Is a pan with a non-swivel pan ok for an FB? Lower G's than a DSR? C+M MFG?

06 GSXR often running too much oil for safety......................= Lower HP.

Thoughts? Feel free to PM me!

Thx!
Cj

[S Lathrop]

We went through a few pan designs as we developed the Citation FB.

What I can say is that a pan with a trench that runs longitudinally under the engine will work, if you get the baffling right. The trench design was similar to what we have for FC and FF. We had some success with this system before we went to dry sump system. We did stay with the trench pan design.

Why do you thing your FB will not corner at high G loads?

[cjahn]

We went through a few pan designs as we developed the Citation FB.

What I can say is that a pan with a trench that runs longitudinally under the engine will work, if you get the baffling right. The trench design was similar to what we have for FC and FF. We had some success with this system before we went to dry sump system. We did stay with the trench pan design.

Why do you thing your FB will not corner at high G loads?

I may be wrong I just ASSUMED it would be less due to less downforce compared to a P1 in full trim.

Regardless, is a non-swivel pickup ok?

Thanks
CJ - AKA Corky
920-904-6099
ctjahn@courtneyjahn.com

[S Lathrop]

I may be wrong I just ASSUMED it would be less due to less downforce compared to a P1 in full trim.

Regardless, is a non-swivel pickup ok?

Thanks
CJ - AKA Corky
920-904-6099
ctjahn@courtneyjahn.com

A good FB will corner at the same or higher G loads that an P1 A good FB is within 2 seconds of a top FA. Corners in excess of 3 Gs will be common. So I think you should count on having to do an oil system that deals with the maximum possible cornering and braking forces. That is why we converted to dry sump systems very early in the development of our cars.

In our cars, we made oil pans that were 1.5 inched tall and were structural members of the car. Getting the mass of the engine as low as possible was critical to get the performance we wanted. As an example, our FB speeds through turn 1 at Road Atlanta are 15 mph faster than a Citation FC, on the same tires. With the exception of the engine package and wheels that are 1" wider than the FC, the cars are almost the same package. At 150 mph, both cars will nearly equal their weight in down force. We actually use slithtly lower down force setups on the FB because of the much higher speeds and the limit of the tires. More down force in the FB does not make the car faster.

[cjahn]

A good FB will corner at the same or higher G loads that an P1 A good FB is within 2 seconds of a top FA. Corners in excess of 3 Gs will be common. So I think you should count on having to do an oil system that deals with the maximum possible cornering and braking forces. That is why we converted to dry sump systems very early in the development of our cars.

In our cars, we made oil pans that were 1.5 inched tall and were structural members of the car. Getting the mass of the engine as low as possible was critical to get the performance we wanted. As an example, our FB speeds through turn 1 at Road Atlanta are 15 mph faster than a Citation FC, on the same tires. With the exception of the engine package and wheels that are 1" wider than the FC, the cars are almost the same package. At 150 mph, both cars will nearly equal their weight in down force. We actually use slithtly lower down force setups on the FB because of the much higher speeds and the limit of the tires. More down force in the FB does not make the car faster.

Thanks for the insight!

What I am really asking is if an off the shelf pan (Of which I have three) are adequate to run an FB. My laptop died so I don't have a baseline of oil pressure tracking...or history from my current pan.

[crowe motorsports]

Flat wet pans with a rear facing fixed pick-ups was the norm and worked fine. Then Lawrence Lowshack was concerned in hard braking at Road America in T5 that he was noticing a drop in oil pressure. Then modified to a forward pick up. Many pans thereafter were made with forward facing pick-up. I don’t know of anyone that ran a swivel. I would not hesitate to run a older pan with the rear pick up configuration.

[cjahn]

Flat wet pans with a rear facing fixed pick-ups was the norm and worked fine. Then Lawrence Lowshack was concerned in hard braking at Road America in T5 that he was noticing a drop in oil pressure. Then modified to a forward pick up. Many pans thereafter were made with forward facing pick-up. I don’t know of anyone that ran a swivel. I would not hesitate to run a older pan with the rear pick up configuration.

Thank you!

[JerryH]

The pans available from Rilltech, moon, and c&m are all pretty much the same for the 08 gsxr. not sure about earlier versions.

They all have the pickup forward and center....with trap doors on each side of the pickup....and lots of baffling. They work well if the oil level is high enough (top of the sight glass at 4000 rpm plus 1/3 quart).

Almost no one has a swinging pick up pan. The drag race versions do not work.....the pickup swings front to rear.....ours need to swing side to side. There was one pan made with a side swinging pickup......I think it was Lee Alexander....but I'm not sure you can buy one.

I have several cars running the forward pickup wet pan with no issues.

Having said that, there is some power loss compared to a dry sump (6 to 7 hp in my experience)...but the dry sump adds weight.....so its a choice.

Jerry Hodges
JDR Race Cars
NorthAMF1000
636-399-7060

[urbanimports02]

I know this is an older thread but figured I would clear up a few things. Early billet pans picked up about mid pan, maybe slightly forward of mid. They had trap doors on either side and one in front of the pickup. LL modified one to have the pickup in the front and then the other manufactures followed suit. Prior to that I had built a custom swinging pickup pan for Rod Rice so we could test the new custom rear subframe that I built for his Stohr. It was to house a custom tank right behind a custom, direct connected dry sump pan. We wanted to make sure the subframe held up before committing. When we moved forward with dry sump, I sold the swinging pickup pan to Lee Alexander and he went on to be the first 2.00 lap at RA with NA engine. The pickup swung left to right at the front of the pan and had hard stops built into the billet pickup assembly about 3/4” from either side of the pan. A custom baseball diamond shaped cutout in the baffle plate made sure oil always got to the pickup (swivel at home plate) The problem with these wet sumps is that you have to run oil level higher then factory level and they start losing power. For the Gsxr this is about 6-12hp depending on pan design and oil level run. It is very sensitive. Half a quart makes a huge difference. Engine builders run oil at or below factory level. They don’t want to tell you that your race engine is down in the 170’s for HP. The gen2/3 zx10r lost more. I personally put 2 West’s on the chassis dyno right after a race and saw a 17hp difference, one wet sump the other dry sump!! The kawi gets hit the hardest followed by the hayabusa. Unfortunately it only gets worse in a left hand turn when all that oil goes up into the clutch, and the dyno won’t show you that. I WOULD NOT run a rear or mid pickup pan in any race car. It won’t take long to get fast enough to blow the engine up.

[glenn cooper]

Flat wet pans with a rear facing fixed pick-ups was the norm and worked fine. Then Lawrence Lowshack was concerned in hard braking at Road America in T5 that he was noticing a drop in oil pressure. Then modified to a forward pick up. Many pans thereafter were made with forward facing pick-up. I don’t know of anyone that ran a swivel. I would not hesitate to run a older pan with the rear pick up configuration.

You are KILLIN' me with that last sentence, Michael.
Damned near every single blowup in the early days of 07/08 GSXR wet pan was because of the rear pickup.
Did you by chance mean a rear pickup pan that has been modded to front pickup?
The mod involves rotating the pan 180*'s installing a front pickup, and ovaling a few of the L & R side bolt holes.