OW racing future

[reidhazelton]

Reid, you are not wrong, but what you're effectively saying is there is no fix because the economics aren't there. You can buy a club FF for $13,000 and run a season (what is a season? 4 or 5 weekends?) for $8,000 in certain parts of the country.

Perhaps I am in some ways. There are indeed factors that SCCA cannot control, but the ones in their control they don't seem to do much about. The latest example is FB. In order to compete with FA, how much more expensive did FB just become? In FC, there are a substantial amount of $25k-ish USF cars (Van Diemens with a different engine) that are not allowed to run as you have allowed in FRP. SCCA's lack of stable rules in many classes leads to a lot of the cost increases. That's 100% in their control.

I see the issue that as the market changes, SCCA does not recognize that shift, and keeps pushing on 'because that's how we've done it for 50 years'.

It's an easy cycle to make worse, but one that is vary hard to fix. Less people racing, means the fixed costs go up for those still racing. As those costs go up, less people race. Rinse, repeat.

[LenFC11]

Unfortunately as Reid has said in the past no one pays attention to what the young guys are saying.. same thing is happening here.

I agree with Reid. Simply cost too much.. while my passion is racing open wheel cars.. it's the cost that keep me away these days.. too many other things to do with the time and money that are very enjoyable

[phantomjock]

I am a participant in regional-only class, so Run-Offs are not even on my horizon, but want to share another view. I come to racing after over 30 years of offshore cruising. It is a fool that thinks you can "own" a boat, airplane, or racecar and get off cheap! Remember the adage that starts off; If it has, wheels, props, or--- its better to rent? Cruising Clubs, Sailing Associations, etc. are just now also facing participation issues, and are undergoing similar introspection, albeit form a different perspective, and much different cost models.

From the Majors Charts, 60 - 70 PERCENT of the vehicles participating in the Majors are eligible for "other than SCCA" venues. NASA, Lemons, Chumps/Champs. These venues are not open to OW cars (or purpose-built race-only cars). Can there be any wonder if business decisions may be seem focused on "other" than OW? Or stated another way; not focused on OW class consolidation issues, when other venues are in direct competetion for the larger segment of the existing pool of participants? Sports racers (even when equiped with lights) were not permitted to participate in SCCA Track Nites. Those events seemed focused on drawing new "players" not current participants. All of this with the backdrop of race participation perhaps in an overall decline? Just read the number of adverts of cars and gear for sale, as racers leave the sport. Cost is only one element, an aging population and fewer new (younger) participants needs to be addressed.

Another tipping point issue. Fewer entries mean higher entry fees which means fewer entries.

I like the way SEDiv has sorted this out (from my perspective) with the SARRC. It moves the "target" from Majors to Regional Championship, and as such may encourage wider participation - helping keep entry fees down.

Which seems to point to a multi day/session being more cost effective, rather than a 1 day event. My personal favorite follows the "Holmberg" weekend - Thursday Travel, Friday Test sessions; Sat P&Q for Sprint, Sprint, P&Q for Feature; Sunday Feature Race, then pack up and hit the hotel.

Using Greg's details (and some of mine), I get to a $800/hour on that 3 day weekend (with at least 3:25 seat time), and for a 1 day event it is at about $700/hour (2:00 seat time-may be high). Makes me consider not running AX, as that comes in at near $700/hour due to very low seat time!

Just another blind man touching the elephant!

Cheers - Jim

[TDI PILOT]

The Runoffs is certainly important to the competitors who enter Majors and the Runoffs, who account for almost exactly one third of all SCCA entries, plus who account for an unknown (to me), but significant number of Regional entries. For nearly 60 years the National (now Majors) races have on feeding competitors into the Runoffs

Are you not aware that the Regions and Divisions DO have their own points championships? In fact, it was the competitors dissatisfaction with not having a true national championship that led to the ARRC and eventually the Runoffs.

SCCA's explanation for why it does not focus on spectators is because we are a 'participatory club'.

Yes, I am an active, competing member and I am fully aware that there are regions and champions. Are you a member that will actively compete (driver) in races this season? I am also the exact demographic the SCCA needs to attract and keep to survive. I just don't see the value in Majors races, they do nothing for me other than force me to take an extra day off work and pay a bigger entry fee. If the SCCA wants to have "big" races, just make them the same duration and cost as a regional race and simply call them "majors" with a bigger points payout or sponsor giveaways.

Or just write the SCCA a "letter" and tell them to keep up the good work. Seems the reluctance to change anything is a contributing factor in killing this 60 year old club. I will admit though, I certainly don't have all the answers.

[TimH]

And so, I got a vintage Formula Vee and will be racing it with RMVR starting this spring.

Excellent decision, well explained.

FWIW, get comfortable in that FV and you'll find you can take it to SCCA events on either coast.

Then you can buy a CF..

[problemchild]

The SCCA
For better or worse, accurate or not, my perception of the SCCA is that of a stodgy, old, bureaucratic, pedantic behemoth.

A sea of paperwork, an organization trying to be all things to all people, and a bunch of cutthroat insular angry old people wondering why the young people don't think they're any fun. That's how I saw the SCCA.

Welcome to club racing! Glad you found your group. There are fun groups of good people having positive club racing experiences in many different racing organizations, including the SCCA. They are essentially organizing their own fun under some umbrella organization or club.

It is just that at the current time, SCCA is incapable of doing much more than providing insurance and licensing. Their operational process is as you describe. Dynamic and energetic and productive people would never accomplish anything within the restraints of the system in place ..... so they stop trying and move on .... or never start. It must be said, that some of these people are active within the Regions, and usually leading the charge at the better run events. Finding where those people are, in any organization or club, is where the best racing experience will be.

[jharvey]

SCCA regions and racers, like vintage regions and racers, vary quite a bit. Some regions are serious and uptight, some are relaxed and more "fun". Some are highly political, some couldn't care less.

Contact between formula cars is not as prevalent as it is with production or sports racers. We each have to respect each others space, which is one of the reasons I love formula racing.

Racing, as a whole, is dying. I don't think making things less expensive will save it. If you could turn the difficulty down to "easy", like on a video game, and take all the work out of it, then it might survive.

[phantomjock]

Racing, as a whole, is dying. I don't think making things less expensive will save it. If you could turn the difficulty down to "easy", like on a video game, and take all the work out of it, then it might survive.

Arrive and Drive - anyone? Sounds like a ":Charter Vacation" to me... Been there done that - bought the wreck.
No thanks. Rather have my own.

[Daryl DeArman]

If you could buy a race car for $13,000 and run a full season for $8,000, how many people would you have at an average event?

You can do so in FC, FF, F5, FV if you are just happy to be out there, so why isn't everybody doing so?

I'm not convinced the guy that drives a $35K-$50K pick-up, Lexus or WRX, has a $1000 phone and spends $200 on a pair of tennis shoes doesn't have the money to race. He could buy a $4000 pick up, an open trailer, get by with a 5 year old phone and $50 tennis shoes if he would rather spend that money racing.

[Daryl DeArman]

They're spending their money on avocado toast and video games instead of race cars! Never mind that they're actually far worse off financially than their parents; that's an invention of the media. No, they're not actually broke, they just want to do frivolous things instead of driving in races. But don't worry; we'll win them over by being angry and misunderstanding their finances and interests, because back in my day things were expensive too and they shouldn't have taken out those student loans. Why is the crowd at Lemons so young?!"

Us old guys aren't stating that young folks are broke because they spend their money on frivolous things, we just want them to spend their money on the same frivolous things we do.

[reidhazelton]

You can do so in FC, FF, F5, FV if you are just happy to be out there, so why isn't everybody doing so?

I'm not convinced the guy that drives a $35K-$50K pick-up, Lexus or WRX, has a $1000 phone and spends $200 on a pair of tennis shoes doesn't have the money to race. He could buy a $4000 pick up, an open trailer, get by with a 5 year old phone and $50 tennis shoes if he would rather spend that money racing.

And here is the exact issue. Yes, you can buy a $15k FC beater. Can you compete? No. That's a hard sell to convince someone they can afford it when they can't be competitive. Who wants to spend their last dollar to run around a the back of the pack, and know they have no chance? They will go do track days with their street car to get the same lapping experience for a fraction of the cost.

How many of my friends, or people in my age group, have what you describe? None. Most have very good jobs, and are well established in their careers. Here is the real world sacrifice scenario - do you want to race, or buy a house, raise a child, save for retirement, or payoff your college or grad school loans that you're paying 9% interest on? The $400/month car payment for that IS250 or STi isn't going to put a fraction of a down payment on a season of racing. That car payment is less than just one entry fee.

I saw this with no disrespect, but there is a large, fundamental misunderstanding of the expenses Gen Ys, Millennials, and the i Gen's have compared to previous generations. How many over the age of 60 had to start saving for retirement entirely on their own the minute they entered the workforce? When the Boomers were entering the workforce, how much was a brand new FF as a percentage of that years salary? What is it now... The cost to race keeps going up. Wages do not. Less will be able to afford to race.

Like has been said - what's cheaper; ChumpCar or SCCA? Which one has a younger demographic by 30 years and is growing?

[DanW]

The Lemons folk have done an amazing job with the perception of cheap endurance racng split among friends...

[mmi16]

I might also note that I don't think the club SCCA is specifically in "trouble". Track night America is a huge success, Autocross is vibrant, I suspect the new time attack events will be equally successful. SM, SRF are both very well attended at most events.

TNIA and Autocrossing aren't wheel to wheel racing and wheel to wheel racing (or fender to fender, if you prefer) is what made SCCA's bones in the world of motorsports. While TNIA & Autocrossing can be considered gateway drugs, they aren't hooking the necessary number of people into Club Racing on account of the economics of Club Racing - both event entry fees as well as what it costs to campaign a car in any of the SCCA road racing classes - that is both OW & CW.

Young families with kids rarely have the disposable income to support Club Racing at any level, Regional or National.

I don't have any answers on how to reduce costs.

[mmi16]

Racing, as a whole, is dying. I don't think making things less expensive will save it. If you could turn the difficulty down to "easy", like on a video game, and take all the work out of it, then it might survive.

Sounds like Spec Recker Ford - arrive, drive and write the check for you damages so you can race at the next event.

[Daryl DeArman]

And here is the exact issue. Yes, you can buy a $15k FC beater. Can you compete? No. That's a hard sell to convince someone they can afford it when they can't be competitive.

Bingo. It's no fun running around in the back. Until 15 other guys are also happy just running around in the back. . .

How many of my friends, or people in my age group, have what you describe? None

Your passion may be clouding your objectivity. Clearly, many, many thousands of people in your age group have new trucks, new iPhones and $200/shoes...and pay money for avocado toast too .

I saw this with no disrespect, but there is a large, fundamental misunderstanding of the expenses Gen Ys, Millennials, and the i Gen's have compared to previous generations. How many over the age of 60 had to start saving for retirement entirely on their own the minute they entered the workforce? When the Boomers were entering the workforce, how much was a brand new FF as a percentage of that years salary? What is it now... The cost to race keeps going up. Wages do not. Less will be able to afford to race.

The fundamental misunderstanding is that it comes down to choices. I learned this as I've made plenty of bad ones myself.

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, I am an active, competing member and I am fully aware that there are regions and champions. Are you a member that will actively compete (driver) in races this season? I am also the exact demographic the SCCA needs to attract and keep to survive. I just don't see the value in Majors races, they do nothing for me other than force me to take an extra day off work and pay a bigger entry fee. If the SCCA wants to have "big" races, just make them the same duration and cost as a regional race and simply call them "majors" with a bigger points payout or sponsor giveaways.

Or just write the SCCA a "letter" and tell them to keep up the good work. Seems the reluctance to change anything is a contributing factor in killing this 60 year old club. I will admit though, I certainly don't have all the answers.

I'm pleased to hear you know of Regional and Divisional Championships. Did you also see my comments about how the Runoffs came to be? In short, it was because competitors were dissatisfied with multiple divisional points championships and wanted a true National Championship that brought the Divisional Champions together for a one-race shootout to crown that champion. To this day hundreds of members focus their energies and resources every year to qualifying for and competing in that championship.

If the Runoffs don't motivate you the Club also has a robust Regional racing program to cater to the aims of competitors not interested in the Runoffs program. The Regions are allowed and encouraged to create or continue their own classes, such as DSR, GT-Pinto (yes, not kidding) and FB next year. All they have to do is identify the issue of the GCR they wish to run under, e.g., Dec 2013 for DSR, or write a set of rules for a new class, and assign the cars to a race group. And since there are about 4 Regional races for every Majors race, there should be plenty of events to chose from to fit one's budget and time constraints.

And yes, I am an SCCA member (continuously since 1997) with 83 races in a variety of cars, as well as a team owner/manager in SCCA Pro and CART Atlantics, FA, and CSR. My cars have won the Runoffs in CSR and FA. In recent years I have concentrated on building cars and parts as owner (with my wife and son) of Stohr Cars. We've built and delivered 3 new Stohr FB cars and 3 new Stohr WF1 P1/2 cars in the past few years, and are building a Stohr WF1 P2 right now that will be on track this spring and at the VIR Runoffs in the Fall. So yes, I am definitely a stakeholder.

Finally, don't disparage 'writing a letter'. Case in point: back in October after the Runoffs I wrote a letter (actually an online form) to SCCA suggesting they merge FB with FA, because after looking at the class' participation levels in recent years it seemed clear to me that they were on the chopping block, and I'd rather see them folded into a Runoffs eligible class than revert to permanent Regional status. Of course, with the dual track they can be a Regional class, too. The Club didn't adopt all of my suggestions, but they did act on the core of it. The lesson here? If you want something to change, write a letter!

[reidhazelton]

The fundamental misunderstanding is that it comes down to choices.

It's not a choice if it's not affordable - no matter the sacrifice. The 'choice' for me to buy a $20m beach front home in San Diego isn't a choice when it makes itself. The reason I harp on this so much, is because I was the one idiot in my circle of friends who made that choice and did exactly what you describe. I used the $13k car and $8k/yr with the Runoffs, as that is what I did. I went to college, and had an above average job. I drove a 98 Dodge Neon I bought from my folks when I was in high school for a dollar, and drove it through college until I quit racing. I can count the amount of times I went out to eat or out with friends on one hand, in the 6 years I raced. I didn't have kids, and didn't have a house. I had a $3,000 tow vehicle that I got cheap because it started on fire with the previous owner. I had a 20' trailer that I took in exchange for doing bodywork on a friends Miata street car. I'd go to Hoosier after race weekends, and ask for all the lead wheel weights they were going to toss. I'd scrape off the sticky goo and reuse them, or melt down the weights to make lead bricks to ballast the car. At the time I raced, I had zero savings. It was completely irresponsible. I had that 5 year old cell phone, on a cheap plan I scammed from Sprint after making an LLC to get the cheaper business rate. I'd pull the hose all the way out on the self service Av Gas pump and get about 2 gallons extra out of that thing after the airport closed. None of that made the entry fee, gas to get to the track, or the days off work any cheaper.

I'm sure that's just a bit of it. My point is that is what someone my age would have to do to race. How many people are willing to do that, and feel really, really nervous about their financial future the whole time when they know they are spending way beyond their means? Add to that, it also means you do all your own work. All of it. Busting tires, rebuilding shocks, gearboxes, etc. That equates to zero personal life and your gf is seriously pissed at you 90% of the time.

To think it reasonable to go through that level of sacrifice to afford to race is not sellable to anyone smarter (which is nearly everyone) than I am. And if those are the choices a market segment needs to make to afford your product, forget them buying it.

Then again, as Mike Agnifilo said to me once at the Sprints "**** - I'd have three houses paid off by now had I not raced. But, I wouldn't change a thing", I have to agree. I just tell myself I spent my retirement while I could enjoy it. That and if I live past 70 I'm screwed.

[Stan Clayton]

Racing, as a whole, is dying. I don't think making things less expensive will save it. If you could turn the difficulty down to "easy", like on a video game, and take all the work out of it, then it might survive.

Oh good grief, what a bunch of well-ripened horse pucky. If anything, SCCA is the victim of its own success. Consider this:

NASA exists because Jerry got pissed off at SCCA over some rules changes (that I can't remember and he probably can't, either), so started his own series. NASA is now larger than SCCA.

LeMons got started because those guys felt both SCCA and NASA were too hidebound and rules oriented, so started their $500 ****box marathon. LeMons is now bigger than either NASA or SCCA.

Chumpcar got started because they thought LeMons was just plain silly with too much 'goofy costumes and frivolity' and not quite enough serious racing. They aren't as large as the others, but you better bring your A-game if you want to do well in one of their races.

Oh, and Vintage. Vintage has exploded over the past couple of decades by cherry picking from the yearly stream of out-of-date SCCA (and pro) cars. My Gawd, what a sweet gig! But ya gotta hand it to them; the scenery is to die for, and the food and drink nonpareil.

[Daryl DeArman]

To think it reasonable to go through that level of sacrifice to afford to race is not sellable to anyone smarter (which is nearly everyone) than I am. And if those are the choices a market segment needs to make to afford your product, forget them buying it.

Agreed.

While I appreciate the self-deprecating humor in your anecdote. You must ask yourself the real reason you made the choices you did. Why were you, me, and many others willing to make such unreasonable levels of sacrifice to race?

To find a common ground between us and move this conversation in a constructive direction, how affordable/how much fun does it have to be to get people to participate with a "reasonable" amount of sacrifice? (We can debate what's reasonable later ) How do you propose we get there?

[FVRacer21]

Looking back - racing probably is not that much more expensive on the low end but lets look at some things that are standing in the way.

Cell phone, Internet and cable - probably $400 per month that did not even exist when most of us started racing.

Car loans - $300 - $500 per month for six years. Just to make some feel depressed - in 1972, after our family car was totaled by a drunk, my father took the insurance money and cash and bought a Ford SW for less than 3k. That was after we spent 3 months walking and taking bicycles to where we had to get. Lucky Long Island had mass transit.... could not do that today.

Health insurance - today you have $5K deductibles and weekly payments - then you had free insurance through a company - did not pay much but health care was cheaper - down side - a lot of people died from minor illnesses.

Student Loans - I went to a community college and got a associate degree and basically paid cash for 2 years. My son went to Cornell and I basically put ten years racing budget (FV) away so he would only have a similar ten year debt when he got out. He spent his 20’s getting his Masters and PhD and paying off his student loans. While I was working 60 hours a week to go racing - he was doing the same to pay off his loans. My other son saved me some money (but not worry) when he joined the Marines. Now out he is doing okay, but after buying a fixer upper - racing cars is not on his radar.

So if I was going to design a race car for today’s economy - it would have to be for 30 something and up who is settled in career or family - a wingless, simple, possible rental - low maintenance - possible shared ownership. Non- spectator tracks designed to be low cost with many corners controlled by lights - the indoor kart model. Costs would be under $1000 per race (day?) and the car could be used for multiple events (auto cross, track day etc.) Tracks would sanction races to keep costs down - groups like SCCA might be true car clubs and racing as we know it will be pro only supported by amateur vintage racing.

Well - you asked....

ChrisZ

[jharvey]

Oh good grief, what a bunch of well-ripened horse pucky. If anything, SCCA is the victim of its own success. Consider this:

NASA exists because Jerry got pissed off at SCCA over some rules changes (that I can't remember and he probably can't, either), so started his own series. NASA is now larger than SCCA.

LeMons got started because those guys felt both SCCA and NASA were too hidebound and rules oriented, so started their $500 ****box marathon. LeMons is now bigger than either NASA or SCCA.

Chumpcar got started because they thought LeMons was just plain silly with too much 'goofy costumes and frivolity' and not quite enough serious racing. They aren't as large as the others, but you better bring your A-game if you want to do well in one of their races.

Oh, and Vintage. Vintage has exploded over the past couple of decades by cherry picking from the yearly stream of out-of-date SCCA (and pro) cars. My Gawd, what a sweet gig! But ya gotta hand it to them; the scenery is to die for, and the food and drink nonpareil.

If you want to understand how and why it is dying, study the shift from DIY to DIFM in the automotive industry. There are some racers that can afford to pay someone to prep their car, many club racers cannot afford such an expense. If people are becoming less involved with cars in general, that bleeds over into all things related to cars.

California car culture is very different than the rest of the country. Here in the northwest, club racing entries have plummeted. Some have gone to vintage, most have just gone away. There is no shortage of money in the area I live. It’s just a shift in hobbies.

[swiftdrivr]

So, we need to provide:

1] Time on track
2] Competition [or not, per one post]
3] Comradarie [ Apologies to Teuobk. I've never experienced the attitude he describes in SCCA, but he shouldn't have either]
4] Affordability [As Reid points out, a 6 mil house for 2 mil is a steal, but it doesn't matter if you don't have the 2 mil]
5] Perceived value for investment [time and money]
6] Minimal hassles [paperwork, tech[?], Impound [?]]
7] Rules stability

The club controls 6 and 7.
We control 3.
Numbers of participants controls or impacts 1, 2, 4 [to some degree] and 5.
The economy and costs of living heavily impacts 4.
Available alternative experiences heavily impacts 5.


As bleak as this looks, RC and the Southern 1600 series have taken steps to impact all of these; concentrating all the cars at certain events to increase competition and comraderie, trying to hold down costs, maximize track time and minimize hassles. Unfortunately, only the people already racing know about it.

[Daryl DeArman]

Car loans - $300 - $500 per month for six years

Our parents didn't have car payments because they generally didn't buy things until they could afford them.

Health insurance - today you have $5K deductibles and weekly payments

Here, I will agree the costs are very high and not exactly affordable. Though, I chose a career path that meant my health care insurance was coming out of my pocket. My daughters did not make those same choices, they have employer provided health-care (good plans at very, very low out of pocket expense).

Student Loans -

Absolutely no need for them. They are the crisis they are because of the mindset that you must acquire a degree no matter the cost or the path taken. Working a PT job while going to a JUCO, and then transferring to an in-state public school while still working and living at home is one way to do it. GI Bill is an option as well. On that note, thank you for your son's service!

[reidhazelton]

Agreed.

While I appreciate the self-deprecating humor in your anecdote. You must ask yourself the real reason you made the choices you did. Why were you, me, and many others willing to make such unreasonable levels of sacrifice to race?

To find a common ground between us and move this conversation in a constructive direction, how affordable/how much fun does it have to be to get people to participate with a "reasonable" amount of sacrifice? (We can debate what's reasonable later ) How do you propose we get there?

Why did I? Honestly, it was due to some level of stupidity. Looking back at the amount of time and money I put in, I'm surprised that I could do either. It was a passion, and a passion not kept in check by mature financial sense.

Steve Lathrop had a great post several years ago that compared incomes and car costs, over different decades. Basically, you need to get the income/cost ratio to 1970's levels. Obviously you can't do much for stagnant incomes, so if you want to maintain the same customer base you need to lower product costs. Can SCCA get back to that ratio? No way. But, the way things are going is not even in the correct direction.

When I joined the FSRAC before committee votes the primary question I asked myself was "will this make racing cheaper?" If the answer was no, 99/100 that was my vote. Take FB - in order to maintain that car within SCCA you have to spend a substantial amount of money to do so. That's a really, really bad rule change but a really good example of cost escalation that does no good for anyone. The FB class was going to be angry no matter if they were put in FA or FC, but in FC at least the cars could get cheaper (restrictors = longer engine life), so I would have put them in FC just to get costs down.

The same process repeats in SCCA. Unstable rules push the long standing cars out, and 5-10 years down the line every stands around with shocked faces asking where all the older cars went and scramble to find ways to get people to bring them out. It never fails. FC is begging for the Pinto cars, FF is begging for the Kent cars, and F500 is begging for the 494.

Take my personal example in FF. I had a car that I could compete at the front with. Then aluminum calipers were allowed. That's $1,600 I didn't spend. Then the Honda engine came in. $20k to convert? Nope. I stuck with the Ford as that was all I could afford. Then came radial spec tires. $5k in suspension mods to get them to fit, let alone work. Nope, and I was out. Spec tires save money, but again it's the unaffordable value in my case and a bit of the-straw-that-broke-the-camle's-back. If you don't have $5k to invest, forget about the value. That is just my personal scenario, and is certainly not a one-size-fits-all story. Just an illustration of how rules changes push out some current cars.

Next, the argument comes into play that 'some cars get old and just have to go away'. I say, this is the death nail in OW in SCCA. Did they say that in the Prod classes when the new Miatas came in? Nope. They kept the Triumphs and Bugeyes competitive with the Miatas. At the Road America Runoffs, F and E Prod had 30-40 car fields.

So, how to keep it lower cost?

• Stable rules package.
• High scrutiny to rule changes that increase cost.
• When new engines come in, you better be sure they don't obsolete the current engine, or even give the perception that they do.
• Get significant input from class stakeholders on rules changes that affect cost.

I'm sure if we put our heads together we could think of a lot of ways beyond the list above that was off the top of my head.


Bigger picture, I'd like to see SCCA ditch the Majors/Regionals programs and combined the two. The talent split is not what it once was, and in many regions they struggle to get 90 entries for either program. There are a lot of thorns there (such as class groupings), but as I see it there needs to be a big change to right the ship with the rate of decline that we are seeing.

I give it 15 years.

PS. How old is the average corner worker? See any 24 year olds? What happens when current workers are not available and we have to pay people? Costs go up - less people race. I see a lot of factors that are leading not to a gradual decline, but rather a cliff's edge.

[Jnovak]

Frankly i am in total shock at the number of posts as a result of my simple post about trying to understand why OW club racing is in the tank.

Thanks so very much for all the great posts. You have given me a lot of ideas!

I will not go into my history but it is so similar to so many of your posts. Thank you for giving me so much to think about.

More later

[Daryl DeArman]

Why did I? Honestly, it was due to some level of stupidity. Looking back at the amount of time and money I put in, I'm surprised that I could do either. It was a passion, and a passion not kept in check by mature financial sense.

Don't confuse stupidity with naiveté.

• High scrutiny to rule changes that increase cost.

While trying to remain mindful that sometimes there are upfront costs and long term savings. Such as the FFit and some spec tires.
For somebody that races often and/or plans to for a long time those two examples can pencil out to be a good return, despite the initial costs. However, with typical participation rates the cash outlay is too large a pill for most to swallow. They can't afford the $45K truck, but they can "afford" $750/mo for the next 72 months.

PS. How old is the average corner worker? See any 24 year olds? What happens when current workers are not available and we have to pay people? Costs go up - less people race. I see a lot of factors that are leading not to a gradual decline, but rather a cliff's edge.

On that note, when I started karting every single adult chasing points championship had to work one entire event (pre-grid, grid, scales, or a corner). Never a shortage of workers. Just something the club may want to consider. I volunteered to work a corner at a Pacific 2000 pro race at California Speedway several years ago. Yep, at 40-ish years old I was the young pup that weekend.