Future of FB Poll

[sprocketmensch]

John,
I can tell you from personal experience that a) my car is by a major manufacturer and is quite safe to be on track and b), when I go wheel to wheel with an 016 and make contact, they drive away with no/minimal damage and I am left holding pieces. These cars were not designed to contact each other, period. Driving on track together is one thing, racing against each other is quite different. Don't conflate driving on track together with racing against each other. They're not the same. If I had an 016 I'd take every corner against an FB with no questions asked. That will not make good racing, period.

[John Nesbitt]

FB is not being removed as a Runoffs class before the 2019 results are known .


FB
1. #25823 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Discontinue F1000 as an Independent U.S. Majors Class
Effective 1/1/2020, remove GCR section 9.1.1.G in its entirety in connection with incorporation of F1000 cars
into the FA class.


We are basically on probation this year and will removed as a Major class next year. Every Major class has to meet the same participation rule.
...

I read the BOD minutes as stating that FB disappears as a National (Majors) class, and therefore a Runoffs class, after the 2019 season. There is no wait on 2019 results and there is no probation.

As of now, FB will be folded into FA 1/1/2020 no matter what.


The only way to turn this around, even to the point of putting FB on probation, is to petition the CRB to change its recommendation and for the BOD to approve that.

Anybody with an FA or FB, or who even thinks that they might want to drive one, would do well to write that CRB letter now. There is no guarantee that a letter-writing campaign would succeed, but without one the rule change will inexorably take effect.

Write those letters.

[John Mosteller]

I read the BOD minutes as stating that FB disappears as a National (Majors) class, and therefore a Runoffs class, after the 2019 season. There is no wait on 2019 results and there is no probation.

It's automatic in the GCR if you meet th 4.0 participation rule you are invited to the Runoffs .


Per SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR) Section 3.7.4.C: All classes with a combined two-year event average of at least 4.0 participants in Majors and Runoffs competition will automatically be invited to the following year’s Runoffs. Classes not meeting that criteria may be invited as the event format and venue permits. The Road Racing department, in consultation with the Club Racing Board, will determine and announce by January 1 the Runoffs-eligible classes invited to the next Runoffs consistent with the event format and venue. For example: If the two-year period includes 68 Majors weekends and two Runoffs, for a total of 70 events, a class would need at least 280 participants over that period to average 4.0 per event.


So it would require a change to the GCR to eliminate a class that makes the numbers by the end of this year for 2020 .


sprocketmensch

Contact with an FA
John,
I can tell you from personal experience that a) my car is by a major manufacturer and is quite safe to be on track and b), when I go wheel to wheel with an 016 and make contact, they drive away with no/minimal damage and I am left holding pieces. These cars were not designed to contact each other, period. Driving on track together is one thing, racing against each other is quite different. Don't conflate driving on track together with racing against each other. They're not the same. If I had an 016 I'd take every corner against an FB with no questions asked. That will not make good racing, period.

Like I said you are the one that makes the decision to go wheel to wheel not the car. The car is either safe enough to protect the driver or it isn't . The decision to fight over the same piece of track is up to the driver so falls under driver safety not car safety .

[John Nesbitt]

It's automatic in the GCR if you meet th 4.0 participation rule you are invited to the Runoffs .


Per SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR) Section 3.7.4.C: All classes with a combined two-year event average of at least 4.0 participants in Majors and Runoffs competition will automatically be invited to the following year’s Runoffs. Classes not meeting that criteria may be invited as the event format and venue permits.

....

Only if you are a class.

The BOD decision eliminates FB as a GCR class 1/1/2020. If it is not a class, then it does not have Majors Runoffs participation. If it is not a class, it cannot have a Runoffs invitation.

The BOD out-trumps the GCR.

The only way for FB to remain a separate GCR (National/Majors) class after 1/1/2020 is for the community to persuade the CRB to recommend staying the BOD decision, perhaps by putting FB on probation.

[Zcurves]

John Mosteller, you got what you wanted. You can run FA now. Why do you continue to stir the pot?

It just so happens that the majority of FB competitors disagree with this for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they run Regionals, FRP, or SVRA in 2020. Then what? FA cannot survive without F1000 cars. Those in opposition will simply race elsewhere.

[Steve Bamford]

“Like I said you are the one that makes the decision to go wheel to wheel not the car. The car is either safe enough to protect the driver or it isn't . The decision to fight over the same piece of track is up to the driver so falls under driver safety not car safety .[/QUOTE]

I’ve raced enough SCCA Alphabet Soup events to comment. When racing someone in your own class you race harder then someone in another class, at least that is how I saw it. Don’t take my words for it, how about this line from someone I’m sure all on here know.
“If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver.”

[BeerBudgetRacing]

FA cannot survive without F1000 cars.

Considering what is in FA today, the A stands for Anything. I think it will ALWAYS survive.

[John Mosteller]

John Nesbitt Originally Posted by John Mosteller



It's automatic in the GCR if you meet th 4.0 participation rule you are invited to the Runoffs .


Per SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR) Section 3.7.4.C: All classes with a combined two-year event average of at least 4.0 participants in Majors and Runoffs competition will automatically be invited to the following year’s Runoffs. Classes not meeting that criteria may be invited as the event format and venue permits.

....





Only if you are a class.

The BOD decision eliminates FB as a GCR class 1/1/2020. If it is not a class, then it does not have Majors Runoffs participation. If it is not a class, it cannot have a Runoffs invitation.

The BOD out-trumps the GCR.

The numbers will be out months before 2020 so they will either back off on the elimination or you will have plenty of leverage to get them to.

Steve Bamford

“Like I said you are the one that makes the decision to go wheel to wheel not the car. The car is either safe enough to protect the driver or it isn't . The decision to fight over the same piece of track is up to the driver so falls under driver safety not car safety .

I’ve raced enough SCCA Alphabet Soup events to comment. When racing someone in your own class you race harder then someone in another class, at least that is how I saw it. Don’t take my words for it, how about this line from someone I’m sure all on here know.
“If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver.”

It still is not a car safety issue . The car is not going to race them any harder it's still a drivers issue . Nowadays even the Formula 1 drivers are being penalized for causing contact and the GCR is fairly specific about on track contact

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track. RULES OF THE ROAD B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters. C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room. D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7. E. If a driver is involved in significant body contact, the driver and car shall stop at the designated inci- dent investigation site for review of the incident by the stewards before going to their paddock area. The designated incident investigation site shall be identified in the Supplemental Regulations and/or a written driver’s meeting. “Significant body contact” includes but is not limited to: contact resulting in 2 or 4 wheels off course, spins, loss of position, or repairs to suspension or bodywork.

To me you are trying to mix two separate issues . From people who have talked or received a letter back from someone on the BOD it's strictly a numbers issue . So if you don't want to be eliminated just get your numbers up so you have some leverage to continue as a class .

Right now they have given us two avenues if you get eliminated as a Runoffs class . We can run Majors and Runoffs as a FA or we can run Regionals as a FS ( or possibly FB depending on the Region ) So what do you think the result will be if you convince the CRB/BOD that the cars are to unsafe to run with FA but they are eliminated from being a class of their own . That would leave you running Regionals only. Well I certainly hope that doesn't happen but it could if you keep trying to make it a safety issue .

[Thomas Copeland]

The stupidity comes from making this a numbers game. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that. Everybody loses in that scenario.

[Stan Clayton]

Considering what is in FA today, the A stands for Anything. I think it will ALWAYS survive

There is an element of truth to this. FM could be next to be folded into FA, as they are well below Runoffs qualifying criteria and have been for years. Come to think of it FM was in FA when I joined SCCA in 1997.

[John Mosteller]

Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Considering what is in FA today, the A stands for Anything. I think it will ALWAYS survive


There is an element of truth to this. FM could be next to be folded into FA, as they are well below Runoffs qualifying criteria and have been for years. Come to think of it FM was in FA when I joined SCCA in 1997.

That was the pathway to a Runoffs class . You were grouped with a faster class until you reached the numbers to ask for Runoffs recognition . The Runoffs requirements have been a numbers game forever . Every time they poll the membership about the Runoffs it's too many classes and not enough single class track time that are at or near the top. If they were to go by poll results we would probably only have about 16 classes at the Runoffs and even then each group would probably only get one 20 minute session per day after you subtract lunch and track cleanup between sessions . So how could you ever get the membership to go for anything but numbers . Would you prefer to throw all class names in a hat at the end of the year and draw 16 that would be the Runoffs classes for the following year with the probability that some classes may never get drawn . If it was a business instead of a club the owner could say these are the Runoffs classes and these aren't so live with it which long term would probably be best . Those that wanted to go would gravitate towards the Runoffs classes .

[bill gillespie]

Fastrack raises the 016 weight to 1450#. Many of the FB posters are cocerned with the safety of competing with the mass of a 1420# car... how do you feel about a 1450# 016, effective Feb 1st...
remember the law of unintended consequences, Stan ?

[Stan Clayton]

Fastrack raises the 016 weight to 1450#. Many of the FB posters are cocerned with the safety of competing with the mass of a 1420# car... how do you feel about a 1450# 016, effective Feb 1st...
remember the law of unintended consequences, Stan ?

No, because 1) the CRB was talking about needing to rein in the 016 back at the Runoffs...weeks before I wrote my letter, and 2) the kinetic energy range of FA (1000 lbs to 1450 lbs) is still less than that within P1 (1000 lbs to 1475 lbs). Y'all be careful out there, ya he'ah?

[mario_zgb]

what was the reasoning behind split starts all these years?

the fastest FA can be only 4 to 5 seconds faster than the fastest legal FB... duh

[Jnovak]

No, because 1) the CRB was talking about needing to rein in the 016 back at the Runoffs...weeks before I wrote my letter, and 2) the kinetic energy range of FA (1000 lbs to 1450 lbs) is still less than that within P1 (1000 lbs to 1475 lbs). Y'all be careful out there, ya he'ah?

Stan just because 1 class does it does not mean that this is a good idea.

[bill gillespie]

Stan just because 1 class does it does not mean that this is a good idea.

thanks Jay....my old school analog brain says, “ two wrongs dont make a right “.... besides, I believe there is a difference in 2 closed wheel cars coming together vs 2 open wheel cars coming together....especially with disparate weights/ mass / energy...

[bill gillespie]

NOT A PHYSICS MAJOR ...
FA=1450 lb
FB = 1000lb
ke = .5MVsq
KE = translational kinetic energy

t7 collision at Road Atl @ 60 mph
t1 collision @ Road Atl @ 120 mph

KE disparity between FA/FB at turn 7 is approx 356,247 Joules
KE disparity between FA/FB at turn 1 is Approx 1,424,988 Joules
I did NOT check my conversion/math

Concerned yet ?....

[Stan Clayton]

Concerned yet ?....

In a word, no. As a practical matter every SCCA event (except the Runoffs and maybe the ARRC) runs all or most of the winged formula classes, and the prototype classes, together. Every event. Every lap. With very few exceptions.

Road racing, even at the amateur level, is inherently dangerous. Anyone who honestly feels it's unsafe for them to be out there needs to do their own risk/reward calculation before going on track, but the accumulated experience of SCCA is that the cars under discussion are safe to race together.

And now I'm headed to the track...

[bill gillespie]

In a word, no. As a practical matter every SCCA event (except the Runoffs and maybe the ARRC) runs all or most of the winged formula classes, and the prototype classes, together. Every event. Every lap. With very few exceptions.

Road racing, even at the amateur level, is inherently dangerous. Anyone who honestly feels it's unsafe for them to be out there needs to do their own risk/reward calculation before going on track, but the accumulated experience of SCCA is that the cars under discussion are safe to race together.

And now I'm headed to the track...

Stan, ....do you just not believe the many posters that have pointed out that running in the same group is way different than competing in the same group for the same $4 trophy ?..really ?
Racing together is a bit different than racing against each other....I’m going back to coloring in my corner...

[B Farnham]

As an outsider looking in it appears there are two options.

Option A. FB is folded into FA and both remain eligible for national events.

Option B. FB ceases to be a national class and FA is not far off from following.

Arguing about the safety factor does nothing but eliminate Option A thus creating the demise of FB and possibly FA down the line. A better idea would be to argue for more side intrusion protection.

Those with an emotional attachment to the class are seeing an Option C of keeping FB as a national class. Since it's a 2 year rolling average those numbers are impossible to hit. Be careful what you're arguing for....

[bill gillespie]

As an outsider looking in it appears there are two options.

Option A. FB is folded into FA and both remain eligible for national events.

Option B. FB ceases to be a national class and FA is not far off from following.

Arguing about the safety factor does nothing but eliminate Option A thus creating the demise of FB and possibly FA down the line. A better idea would be to argue for more side intrusion protection.

Those with an emotional attachment to the class are seeing an Option C of keeping FB as a national class. Since it's a 2 year rolling average those numbers are impossible to hit. Be careful what you're arguing for....

how about FA1 and FA2 ?

[Thomas Copeland]

As an outsider looking in it appears there are two options.

Option A. FB is folded into FA and both remain eligible for national events.

Option B. FB ceases to be a national class and FA is not far off from following.

Arguing about the safety factor does nothing but eliminate Option A thus creating the demise of FB and possibly FA down the line. A better idea would be to argue for more side intrusion protection.

Those with an emotional attachment to the class are seeing an Option C of keeping FB as a national class. Since it's a 2 year rolling average those numbers are impossible to hit. Be careful what you're arguing for....

There is an Option D too.

[Thomas Copeland]

Option D is now official:

https://northamf1000.com/

[cjahn]

Option D is now official:

https://northamf1000.com/

I so wish I could do this but travel and vaca time prevent it.....


Cj

[Steve Bamford]

Option D is now official:

https://northamf1000.com/

That is great. Now the harder part is to get the racers out. You will not find a better run race organization then FRP. Should be great fun!

[RobLav]

So is Jeremey's car back up for sale?

[JEREMY HILL]

Rob,

Why would I sell now that I have a better organization to race with? I will be running several of the FRP events. Thanks to all those who killed FB.

Jeremy F1000 #00

[RobLav]

Jeremy, I asked because it's listed on the linked F1000 site! But congrats on remaining. I'll eventually find a car I'm looking for.

[rcrmike]

Rob,

Why would I sell now that I have a better organization to race with? I will be running several of the FRP events. Thanks to all those who killed FB.

Jeremy F1000 #00

Welcome back. When you are there, we know there's going to be some excellent racing. This year is going to be fun.

Mike

[jchracer]

Option D is now official:

https://northamf1000.com/

Having run with FRP for the last couple of years, I know first hand what a different experience FRP provides. For the FB/F1000 drivers that come out this year, the biggest difference you will find is that you will actually feel like a customer!......what a concept! The events are very professionally run with none of the B**L S**T you need to deal with at a SCCA club event. The other thing you will notice is the amount of green flag laps as compared to the alphabet soup group at most Major’s events (and the pace car takes the checkered flag once again). There is simply no comparison in green flaglaps per dollar…..I have the data.

This really could be the last chance to save F1000 as we know it so anyone who has an interest in saving the class (even if it’s only a desire to keep the value of their car from plummeting even further) should try to make as many events as possible in 2019. Do both if you can but if resources are limited, Screw the Run-Offs and the gigantic time and money suck that has become. The 2019 FRP F1000 championship will be way more enjoyable, provide way more quality track time and be more impressive on the resume than a FB Run-Offs victory.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Announcement I received yesterday:

North American Formula 1000 Championship joins Formula Race Promotions and Hoosier Racing Tire in SCCA Pro Racing for the 2019 Championship Season.

I guess you can't get away from SCCA.

[jchracer]

Announcement I received yesterday:



I guess you can't get away from SCCA.

From my experience, the SCCA is only peripherally involved in the FRP events. I think mainly to provide sanctioning for insurance purposes. The SCCA does NOT run the event......thank goodness.

[Thomas Copeland]

Announcement I received yesterday:



I guess you can't get away from SCCA.

Didn't really feel anything either way about (FRP) staying on with USAC this year or going to SCCA Pro. Works for me either way. Main thing is we don't have to answer to the CRB or the BOD anymore. We make our own rules (in regards to car specs especially). My understanding is we will follow October 2018 SCCA F1000 regs (or something like that). Any changes to those have to be voted on and approved by the majority of the competitors.

The rule making process in the NAF1000 will be as it's always been, completely transparent. Any competitors wishing to serve on the organizing committee can do so at any time. All they have to do is ask. It's going to be a refreshing change. Nobody has to write any groveling letters trying to get board members to come to their senses.

I've been saying since 2009 when I ran the F1000 Pro Series that F1000 needed to expand out away from the SCCA club racing as it's own Pro Series. Now it has that opportunity.

I hold no grudges against the SCCA. Only regrets that they didn't have the vision it took to keep this class intact in it's current form. They played a numbers game with cars when the only numbers that should have mattered to them are the ones with dollar signs in front of them. Like the kind they get through entry fees and money spent at the track. Now they are going to lose a good chunk of those numbers through their own mismanagement. It's a real shame.

[Jnovak]

From my experience, the SCCA is only peripherally involved in the FRP events. I think mainly to provide sanctioning for insurance purposes. The SCCA does NOT run the event......thank goodness.

if the SCCA sanctions the FRP EVENTS, maybe they should count the numbers!

[reidhazelton]

if the SCCA sanctions the FRP EVENTS, maybe they should count the numbers!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sanction is SCCA Pro, and not SCCA Club. If Club loses more classes to Pro sanctions to run with other for-profit series, it will siphon money from already strapped local regions. Looking at the list of classes Pro sanctions, it's the same classes that are seeing substantial decrease in entry numbers. FA, FC, FF, GT1, GT2. Now, FB.

The common thread; those series are all member driven, and seek out and listen to members to guide the decisions.

Congrats to FB for finding a place to race.

[Bob Wright]

Welcome to our Series. I think you will find that we do everything we can to give you a good weekend experience; lots of track time, as little hassle as possible, and yes, we try to treat everybody as 'customers'.

You will be running with the Atlantics, but I think the speed differential is such there won't be a lot of interference between the classes.
Everybody should go to http://atlanticchampionshipseries.com and familiarize yourselves with our rules and procedures so that there are no surprises come race time. Dustin and company will be your main contact, but feel free to contact me or anyone on our staff if you have any questions about how we run things.

Again, welcome to our party....

[RobLav]

Bob, will the FB costs be the same as Atlantic or somewhat less? Like more in line with F2000?

[Bob Wright]

Stay tuned to bulletins and releases from Dustin- Its a package deal that we worked out.

[bill gillespie]

Bob,
Are you saying that FA and FB entry fees will be different, even though you have placed them in the same run group, on track at the same time ?

[John Nesbitt]

Bob, will the FB costs be the same as Atlantic or somewhat less? Like more in line with F2000?

Stay tuned to bulletins and releases from Dustin- Its a package deal that we worked out.

Bob,
Are you saying that FA and FB entry fees will be different, even though you have placed them in the same run group, on track at the same time ?

In my experience (FF), FRP puts on an excellent event. Whatever the pricing details, I think that customers will be pleased.

For FB in general, the only downsides are:

1. This works for FB owners in the FRP catchment area (i.e. the eastern part of the country). For FB owners in the west, not so much.

2. If it matters, this drives the nail in the coffin of a separate FB class in SCCA, If it matters to folks.