No comments on the prelims?

[John Mosteller]

The uptick in 2017 was from the runoffs being at Indy.

[Jnovak]

i do not think so at all.

The reality is that the ad hoc got it close but a lawyers type read of the rules allowed this to happen.

This type of thing is supposed to be caught by the powers that actually approve the written statements and that did not happen. Just my opinion from an avid rules reader.

The reality is we must stop trying to blame specific people and that includes me shutting up too.

What needs to happen now is for someone in the F1000 community to put together a plan to correct this situation or do a total buy in of the FA deal. Someone who is pat of the F1000 community needs to lead the way or to accept this change!

Reality time!

just a repeat of a post for certain folks who think i am being unfair.

[Stan Clayton]

What needs to happen now is for someone in the F1000 community to put together a plan to correct this situation or do a total buy in of the FA deal. Someone who is pat of the F1000 community needs to lead the way or to accept this change!

Doing a total buy-in of the FA deal is what I set out to do in my request letter (see post #23 above), Jay. In fact, what the CRB approved is not at all what I actually requested. For the interested here is my letter in its entirety:

Dear CRB,

DISCLAIMER: I am one of the owners of Stohr Cars. We build P1 & P2 cars, as well as FB cars.

I am writing to request you merge FB into FA, effective January 1st, 2019, or at a date of your choosing. For several years FA and FB participation in Club Racing has been stagnant or declining. The last purpose-built FA chassis were built 10 years ago in 2008. Construction of new FB cars has ground nearly to a halt (we built 2 new FB cars in 2017, but none since.)

In my opinion if the Club does not take proactive steps to save the classes they will both fade out of existence within a few years. FA is simply too expensive due to the cost of FIA-certified tubs, and engine and transaxle costs. With no new ex-pro cars being passed down into the club ranks the cost of buying and competing in FA is driving competitors out of the class. FB is MUCH more affordable, but I believe its uncertain future is giving pause to potential participants. By folding FB into FA, which already hosts multiple orphan and semi-orphan sub-classes (PFM, F3 & F4, etc.), we can send a signal to FB competitors and potential competitors that the class has a future.

To do that I propose the CRB create two new spec lines to accommodate motorcycle powered cars, similar to the attached file. The first line would be for motorcycle powered cars up to 1000cc engine displacement with race prepared engines. The second line would add motorcycle powered cars with engines up to 1355cc displacement (Hayabusa and ZX14R superbike engines), restricted to the current P2 engine rules.

Please don't hesitate to contact me to discuss or ask questions. I am willing to do the leg work for this and am always available.

Thank you, Stan

[Jnovak]

Well done Stan the only thing left is to convince the F1000 community that this is to their benefit! Bssed on this forum i think it will be a tough sell.

[Stan Clayton]

Well done Stan the only thing left is to convince the F1000 community that this is to their benefit! Bssed on this forum i think it will be a tough sell.

Of course it will be a tough sell. It already has been, since I've been advocating this course of action on and off for a dozen years. When the m/c cars were forced out of FC after the 2005 Runoffs I first proposed the m/c engine spec line in FA. The FSRAC had a fit about it, citing the GCR that FA was for "automotive engines over 1100cc", and that m/c engines were contrary to the spirit of the class. That directly led to the FSRAC and the CRB supporting a national class for FB.

[Zcurves]

Of course it will be a tough sell. It already has been, since I've been advocating this course of action on and off for a dozen years. When the m/c cars were forced out of FC after the 2005 Runoffs I first proposed the m/c engine spec line in FA. The FSRAC had a fit about it, citing the GCR that FA was for "automotive engines over 1100cc", and that m/c engines were contrary to the spirit of the class. That directly led to the FSRAC and the CRB supporting a national class for FB.

So Stan, what efforts did you make to gain class consensus before you submitted this proposal? Did you think we the racers would take this news in a positive light? Did you know NAF1000 was planning to run Majors in 2019, which was expected to significantly increase class numbers?

ETA, everyone probably has an opinion on what it will take to save the class but 100 different opinions get us nowhere. We need a United front. Best case, it was bad timing after the revised participation requirements just a few short months ago. We weren’t given the benefit of the opportunity to build our numbers and many will consider your actions (along with SCCA) as a disservice.

And to correct your original letter, two new JDRs were built and campaigned in 2018. You can reference my signature if you haven’t read my previous posts..

[Mike Devins]

First I would like to ask why we need to limit the number of classes? If I am running race I care about entries, 200 cars in one class pays the same as 200 cars in 200 classes. One is great for the spectators, the other not so much. Same $$$ for the track and the Division/SCCA

A little history:
There was a multi year campaign to combine and reduce the number of Sports racer classes. So S2000 numbers were down, DSR CSR number were OK considering the cost of running these cars. In comes P1 and P2. We decided that the S2000 cars would have a home in P2 but the issue was that in order to be competitive with a WF-1, if it was even possible, was to upgrade to an MZR, new gear box, wings and other aero.

So DSR's had to convert some underbody aero, go get a stock motor, sell your shifter and now you have competitive P2 car. It also brought a bunch of older car out of the garage and back into national competition. but what happened to S2000? most of them went to Vintage racing rather than spending $20/30K. I was at Mid-O this summer delivering some parts as was surprised to see 20+ S2's running a non SCCA event.

P1 numbers are getting better DP02's coming on line help. WF-1s are still competitive, the Norma can surely hold its own. P2 seems to be healthy.

Back to FA/FB: so we combine the classes. At a track like Mid-O the FA's are several seconds faster, how will you fix this for the current FB's. Built motors would be a start but in the end a well driven 014 or 016 will beat an FB even with a built motor and JRO or any other top notch driver.

Both classes will now say FA on the tech sticker and will still run in the same class. But if the SR exercise was any indicator a number ot the FB's will either not compete or find somewhere else to run.

For my customers who are running FB the allure is that you have performance close to FA and significantly less cost. We have ask ourselves where will these cars go if they are not competitive.

One final thought. The east cost FB drivers tried something last year where they ran their series at regionals, the goal was more entries because they would be able to have their own run groups. well that failed and the numbers were way down. i don't expect that they will go down the same path in 2019 and we will see much better participation this year. Also an east coast runoffs will help.

I say put both classes on probation and give them a year to sort it out.

[bill gillespie]

Mike,
I’m not certain that my fat 016, will beat a built motor FB at RA at the 2020 Runoffs....

[Mike Devins]

Mike,
I’m not certain that my fat 016, will beat a built motor FB at RA at the 2020 Runoffs....

Not sure, i am pretty sure that they will not give more power to the FB's, just a worst case scenario for cost to stay competitive.

[jchracer]

Not sure, i am pretty sure that they will not give more power to the FB's, just a worst case scenario for cost to stay competitive.

The only logical thing to do if FB is combined is to slow down the 016 and 014.....we all know that's not gonna happen...

[Mike Devins]

my suggestion to all of interested parties is to get together with your friends and fellow racers and come up with a coherent plan, then write letters to the CRB, I have been told over and over that they do not respond to the threads on APEX.

[Steve Bamford]

my suggestion to all of interested parties is to get together with your friends and fellow racers and come up with a coherent plan, then write letters to the CRB, I have been told over and over that they do not respond to the threads on APEX.

What ever happened to having meetings with the stake holders, customers, participants so there can be a two way conversation? I get so upset when I hear “write a letter, that’s how the process works”. Well that process is ancient. When I hear write a letter I think that may have made sense during WWI & WW2 however there are so many better ways to communicate in this century.

I’m not part of this class so my words mean little & only the participants should be listened to however there needs to be a different way to communicate with the powers that be other then having a one sided discussion by writing a letter.

SCCA I am not writing a letter telling you your process is broken, don’t bother sending me an email asking why I don’t renew my membership.

[sprocketmensch]

So much to do, so little time. I cam into FB from FM. Wanted a car with modern suspension, modern aero, and modern transmission (read this as paddle shifting). I didn;t want to drive another old class that felt it was on its way out - FC. I didn;t want to have to fiddle around with changing gears at every track, and struggling with another class of dwindling number. I chose FB and its fantastic.

For me, I want to race and I could care less about the runoffs. I can't give a week to an occaisonal practice, one qual a day and competing aginast guy with 10 times the budget, semis, etc. The return's just not there for me. Now that my car is sorted, last year all I spent money on was gas, oil, towing, tires, and entry fees. Had a blast with the NAF1000! Also won the NE Majors confernence, which only meant that I won one race because we (most FB's) were racing regionals by design.

I do not want built engines - this will only cause endless dollars to fly out of our pockets.
I do not want to race FAs which weigh hundreds of lbs more than me and make their speed in completely different ways.
Happy to let the numbers show what they may and if we dont have runoffs group, so beit.

But I do want a national FB class so we can compete against cars with similar power, weight, aero, and performance.

As for the NAF1000, we will make our own decisions about what is best for the group. It would sad if this ends up diverging significantly from what the SCCA decides as no one will win there.

And as for all the historical info - its great info and thanks, but we need to assess where we are today, who the drivers will be who plan to drive their F1000's this year, and how best to ensure that we have a fun, competitive group that encourages growth.

Another note when you think about who is build new open wheel cars, lets add Griip to the F1000 fold. No telling what that will do. https://www.griiip.com/

And in case your head is not completely stuck in the sand, remember that ALL internal combustion racing is on its way out. Formuala Electric and new EV based racing will here way faster than any of us gearheads want or expect but is coming and coming fast. e can bitch and moan about FB FA Fwhatever but if you are on the younger side, you will no doubt finish out your time racing an electric race car. Its no longer an if but when. So lets try to support each other and come up with the best, most enjoyable, and least STUPID solutions, for the final decade of internal combustion racing.

[Northwind]

So much to do, so little time. I cam into FB from FM. Wanted a car with modern suspension, modern aero, and modern transmission (read this as paddle shifting). I didn;t want to drive another old class that felt it was on its way out - FC. I didn;t want to have to fiddle around with changing gears at every track, and struggling with another class of dwindling number. I chose FB and its fantastic.

For me, I want to race and I could care less about the runoffs. I can't give a week to an occaisonal practice, one qual a day and competing aginast guy with 10 times the budget, semis, etc. The return's just not there for me. Now that my car is sorted, last year all I spent money on was gas, oil, towing, tires, and entry fees. Had a blast with the NAF1000! Also won the NE Majors confernence, which only meant that I won one race because we (most FB's) were racing regionals by design.

I do not want built engines - this will only cause endless dollars to fly out of our pockets.
I do not want to race FAs which weigh hundreds of lbs more than me and make their speed in completely different ways.
Happy to let the numbers show what they may and if we dont have runoffs group, so beit.

But I do want a national FB class so we can compete against cars with similar power, weight, aero, and performance.

As for the NAF1000, we will make our own decisions about what is best for the group. It would sad if this ends up diverging significantly from what the SCCA decides as no one will win there.

And as for all the historical info - its great info and thanks, but we need to assess where we are today, who the drivers will be who plan to drive their F1000's this year, and how best to ensure that we have a fun, competitive group that encourages growth.

Another note when you think about who is build new open wheel cars, lets add Griip to the F1000 fold. No telling what that will do. https://www.griiip.com/

And in case your head is not completely stuck in the sand, remember that ALL internal combustion racing is on its way out. Formuala Electric and new EV based racing will here way faster than any of us gearheads want or expect but is coming and coming fast. e can bitch and moan about FB FA Fwhatever but if you are on the younger side, you will no doubt finish out your time racing an electric race car. Its no longer an if but when. So lets try to support each other and come up with the best, most enjoyable, and least STUPID solutions, for the final decade of internal combustion racing.

Great write up. The key being "encourages growth"

[Jnovak]

The only logical thing to do if FB is combined is to slow down the 016 and 014.....we all know that's not gonna happen...

i think you are 100% correct Joel

[JakeL]

My observations/questions, having been mostly sidelined for the past 4-5 years. I'm finally in a position where I'll be able to go and race my Stohr again this year, and I can't wait. Having been out of the car and getting back in this past summer - GOD what a riot to drive.

Stan, Jay, Steve, thanks for your measured thoughts as always.


1.) Too many posts in this thread looking backwards and pointing fingers. What's past is past, let's figure out where to go from here and be productive instead of old men on porches bickering about the way it used to be.

2.) Too many people blaming Geartronics as a problem. I've beaten a lot of top-spec Geartronics equipped cars, so has Coop, and so has Alex Mayer. Whining. They're absolutely fun as hell to drive with, and I'm adding one to my car because it's freaking fun and cool, (when it works right) but to say you lost because the other guy had one is complete delusion. It means you're slower than he is.

3.) I am intrigued about the idea of combining FB and FA. Some of the most fun I've had in my Stohr FB has been chasing FA's. My observation has matched what Stan (I think) posted earlier, which was that braking, corner speed and initial acceleration seem to be similar-ish, but that they just have far more top end. Sonoma - not so big a deal. VIR - big problem.

My gut-feel on how to make a FB more like an FA is very similar to what Stan proposed - bigger engine to help with the top end at slightly higher weight to partially mitigate our apparent braking advantage. I don't have a good feel for high-speed corners between the two classes.

That said, we should ask Gary Hickman, Alex Mayer, JRO, and the other top ~5 FB drivers what they've observed against the *good* FA drivers.

4.) Stan, in your letter you said you wanted to limit the combined FA/FB to P2 engine rules, surely you meant P1?

So, I am curious what do others think is an initial crack towards trying to get FA/FB closer to eachother so we can go play together and have some fun?

-Jake

[Jnovak]

The only reason that i am against the geartronics is cost!

My question is: did JR have one on his car at the Runoffs?

Anyone know?

[Daryl DeArman]

Phew! That sure got a bit ugly. I think I'll go do track days in tintops now.

I've not done track days, but I did spend a couple years getting a butt-load of laps in Solo1, as well as racing with a marque club in a tin-top. All while doing a frame-up rebuild of a formula ford. No cheaper way to get hundred and hundreds of laps to learn new tracks.

[Daryl DeArman]

Why would the FB folks want to be responsible for bolstering FA?

[JakeL]

Jay,

yes JRO and Roggenbuck sister cars have Geartronics

got mine used

Jake

[Jnovak]

Jay,

yes JRO and Roggenbuck sister cars have Geartronics

got mine used

Jake

ok it is my opinion that the Geartronics has slight advantage over a manual shifter. Lets say the advantage is only .01 to.02 seconds per shift. Lets use the .01 sec/shift . That mean the advantage is 1 second for every 100 shifts and no missed shifts! If a top driver has a Geartronics and you want to beat him then you had better have one too!

[Zcurves]

This thread needs a bump as highest priority for the class. If the moderators could make it a sticky and change the title to something more obvious, it would be much appreciated. Many of our competitors are still recovering from Christmas and are not aware.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This thread needs a bump as highest priority for the class. If the moderators could make it a sticky and change the title to something more obvious, it would be much appreciated. Many of our competitors are still recovering from Christmas and are not aware.

I changed my post but it won't change the thread title.