Avoid ZAMP products - no service after the sale

[Rick Kirchner]

Well, I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but It's looking like "I can't get no - satisfaction".

Bought a ZAMP helmet in Feb '17. HJC stopped making the lid that i liked and the ZAMP had a lot of neat features and was pretty light. Bought it from Apex Performance in SC - great guys to deal with.

Last race weekend I had trouble keeping the shield up when I wanted it up - and I ran out of tear-offs with none available at the trackside store. No biggie - I had a yellow shield in the bag with a couple of tear-offs on it never used.

When I removed the right post from the helmet I found the shield cracked 3/4 of the way through - this after only six weekends of use. What was worse was that in taking the left post out it galled in place - started to tighten up so I reversed it but it locked solid about halfway out. Aluminum post in a steel insert. This is at 8PM on Saturday night.

So, having no clear options other than to try and beg a helmet from someone two groups before or two groups after, I made an attempt to fix the thing. Drilled the head off the post first and got the shield out of the way. Then i buzzed the remaining post down as far as I could and center drilled it hoping to pick the remaining aluminum threads out with a dental pick - no joy, they were really welded in there.

Then I drilled the hole out a tad more and tried to tap the insert for a helical, but the insert started turning in the helmet. I ended up going up in 1/64 steps to get it to 5/16, put a long bolt through from the inside with a stack of washers and a nylock to fashion a post. The bolt head was flush with the EPS in the liner and covered by the inner liner. Not the most advisable thing to do, but hey, I'm sure folks have done worse.

When I got back I contacted ZAMP and asked for a warranty repair or replacement. To my surprise they refused - contending that drilling through the insert was an "unauthorized modification", and saying no sanctioning body would let me use it now. Well, no **** sherlock?

Mind you, the shell is unharmed, The insert still in place, and we are talking a 1/2" spot in the EPS that could be plugged. Never mind that people drill the damn things all the time for radios, water setups, air tubes and before SA 2010 - the HANS posts.

The guy I'm dealing with is Kyle Keenan, some B-spec guy from the northwest, and trying to be logical with this guy is impossible.

First, he told me I must have cross-threaded or overtightened the post - yet it was as I received it. Honestly, how do you cross-thread or over tighten a post anyway - the damn things are designed to make it hard to put a lot of torque on them with a wide and shallow slot in aluminum. They seem to be signed with using a quarter for a screwdriver.

I asked what he would have done - which he wouldn't answer but said I should have called them first. Now mind you it was 8PM on a Saturday and he didn't elaborate on just what i would have been told to do IF I could have reached someone....

He also declined to elaborate on how they would have repaired it had I skipped my race and sent the helmet back. To set a new insert they would have had to grind the outer rim off and punch the inner piece out of the way before they could place a new insert - creating the same hole I did. Just like drilling out a rivet.

My position is that if the EPS can't be repaired any problem like I encountered scraps the helmet, and they should replace it under the warranty. The best they offered me was 50% off another of their helmets. Mine still had 80% of the life left. I probably take it out in the desert and shoot it up. Maybe make a you tube video of it......

You get what you pay for is the moral of the story. This item is worth what - maybe $200 to them wholesale? Hoping to speak to his boss about it and if I get a reasonable outcome I'll delete this post.

[Keith Carter]

I had talked with whom I believe was the owner of Zamp at PRI a couple of years ago when I was looking to replace my expiring Bell. He was less than personable when I had asked him a few questions about a helmet I was interested in. Maybe he was stressed or something, but talking with people about your product should be a pleasant experience. I'm glad I got to try it on though, it was super lightweight, but didn't fit my head very well and wasn't very comfortable at all on me. Hopefully if you do get a chance to discuss your issue with the guy, he's cool with you and understands that the customer is always right. Being the one of the cheapest helmets on the market and very appealing to people getting into the sport, he can probably afford to lose you as a customer and not sweat the repercussions. I couldn't afford to replace my old Bell with a new one this time around, but I do like my HJC AR-10 III that I ended up with.

[BorkRacing]

My philosophy has been you only get one brain. If I can't afford a top of the line helmet then I won't race.
When I did my residency, even though it was oral surgery I spent 3 months in ER and saw enough brains through skull holes, in bags stapled to the corpse and smeared across the rest of the body to never buy a cheap helmet.

[Jamesbe]

More expensive helmets may have more features but may or may not be safer. Price doesn't necessarily dictate safety.

Lots of reviews for motorcycle helmets prove that theory.



Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[BorkRacing]

No motorcycle helmet is safe. In my experience all they do is save your face for an open casket.

FIA certified, not SFI are more expensive and are safer, but if you believe a cheap helmet is as good or better not my worry.
I don't see many cheap helmets on the F1 grid, just saying.

[LenFC11]

Good helmets save lives.. in racecars and bikes

I recently, last few months had a car turn directly into me on my bike. Some pretty serious injuries.. but I know I am alive because of the helmet.. the helmet shell is clearly craked from the impact.. only area of my body not hurt.. my head.. thanks Arai

[Daryl DeArman]

My philosophy has been you only get one brain. If I can't afford a top of the line helmet then I won't race.

Interested in learning what you wear.

[Daryl DeArman]

Once you attempted a repair which prevented them from determining whether or not it was defective materials/workmanship you kind of shot yourself in the foot. What repair method they would have utilized or replacement determination they may have made is irrelevant , you took their ability to determine cause away.

Offering you a good faith type warranty discount seems certainly reasonable to me. I know if I took the soldering iron to an iPhone they wouldn't warranty it, regardless of the method they would have utilized or if the board was already toast.

Go shoot up the Zamp in the desert. Buy yourself a helmet that will provide you the level of customer service, value, comfort and protection you desire.

[BorkRacing]

Good helmets save lives.. in racecars and bikes

I recently, last few months had a car turn directly into me on my bike. Some pretty serious injuries.. but I know I am alive because of the helmet.. the helmet shell is clearly craked from the impact.. only area of my body not hurt.. my head.. thanks Arai

Was it a cheap helmet? Just asking.

[EricP]

Interested in learning what you wear.

Me too.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm guessing Bork isn't wearing either of the Stilo ST5s or a Schuberth SF2 Pro. . . the 3 highest rated and most expensive off-the-shelf helmets.

Apparently he didn't think his head was really worth that much. Must have figured at some point, as long as it has the proper certification, spending extra money didn't make him proportionally safer. Same thing Rick did when buying a Zamp.

[LenFC11]

Was it a cheap helmet? Just asking.

Definitely not a cheap helmet.. Arai.. considered one of the better ones. Just under a Shuberth.. which is what I will replace it with. Mostly because they offer built in Bluetooth.

I obviously agree with the need to spend money to get a quality helmet.

[Daryl DeArman]

Definitely not a cheap helmet.. Arai.. considered one of the better ones. Just under a Shuberth.. which is what I will replace it with. Mostly because they offer built in Bluetooth.

I obviously agree with the need to spend money to get a quality helmet.

My MX helmet is a Shoei. I had strongly considered the Arai, and despite the Arai vs. Shoei head argument, the models I was considering have the same shape form. I went with the Shoei because of the quality of the models I was able to hold in my hands and pick nits suggested better QC with the Shoei. I have no doubt that both brands offer excellent protection. My street helmet is a HJC, primarily because it's modular, Snell and DOT rated and had a built-in mount for our Chatterbox.

I used to sell racing safety equipment. Put my hands on a lot of helmets. I don't buy into the more money = safer, nor more money = better quality. Jamesbe nailed it above.

[hdsporty1988]

No motorcycle helmet is safe. In my experience all they do is save your face for an open casket.

FIA certified, not SFI are more expensive and are safer, but if you believe a cheap helmet is as good or better not my worry.
I don't see many cheap helmets on the F1 grid, just saying.

Actually, several of the Helmet manufacturers make both with the major differences the inside lining material (not much chance of getting caught in a fire on a motorcycle ) and eye port size comparef to what most of us wear. Yes, there are those that just wear DOT brain bucket, but those are the oned who wouldn't be wearing one at all if it wasn't required. I ride my Harley in Illinois and Wisconsin where helmets are not required and am the exception since I wear one.

[LenFC11]

Daryl

I've had a few Shoei helmets threw life.. also a very good helmet..

I chose the Arai over the Shoei this time mainly because it was quieter while at speed for me.. It fit my nugget well, and comfortable. Price had little to do with the decision. A noisy helmet wears me out..

My current dirtbike helmet is a Shoei. Very comfortable and light.. noise is less an issue especially as I ride a 2 stroke dirtbike

I would easily recommend a Shoei, Arai or Shuberth lid as those are what I have experience with. I have a few other helmets that I do not find comfortable and quality is less then advertised.. some of which have been named in this thread

[Daryl DeArman]

My current dirtbike helmet is a Shoei. Very comfortable and light.. noise is less an issue especially as I ride a 2 stroke dirtbike

Me too.

[LenFC11]

Me too.

Ahhhh... Yes.. nothing like the sound of a 2T on the pipe!!

[Rick Kirchner]

As far as safety is concerned, the standards are the standards. Everything that meets the standards are equally safe. You can believe otherwise but there's no supporting data. Yes, the FIA standard is supposedly better (although it would take some serious engineering analysis to determine the real-world equivalent of how much an whether that's relevant at our level). There's no points given for exceeding the standard, nobody is quoting that they exceed the standards, and evidently nobody is setting up independent test facilities and certifying them to provide a marketing advantage over beating the standard by "X" amount.

What's left are comfort features like aero, earmuffs, radio-ready, minor differences in shield mounting and adjustment, weight and then value.

Daryl, I understand your bit about their ability to determine cause - but at some point you have to believe the customer- I mean why would I do such thing if I had any other option? Especially when went to pains to explain it all.

[Jtovo]

Not to get into which helmet is safer and all of that...but that is where the thread seems to be going.

I actually patented a new helmet design a few years ago. Went through all of the tests and met with some really brilliant people who handle these tests. Went to the NOCSAE labs to have my helmet tested (it passed).

When they set the minimum standards, the manufactures meet them. Due to legal reasons (many attorneys told me this while doing my helmet), companies will never say they are SAFER than another. Just that they meet the standards. Helmet companies get sued ALL THE TIME. "I only bought yours because you said it was safer!" is an argument used all the time. But they stand by the fact the met the requirements. It takes some liability off of them.

Anyway. The padding material, location, layers of padding, density...all play a factor into a good or bad helmet. Yes, paying more for a helmet NORMALLY is better. They are more than likely to have spent the time testing the layers and placement of the foam / materials.

You cannot always believe what you see on the net. But I have always liked this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQALEPc570

I always laugh at this. People spend $250 on a helmet vs. $900. But spend money on so many little "go fast" parts on a race car. Priorities....

[EricP]

Is there an advantage with carbon or a Kevlar composite in terms of resistance to piercing? This seems to have been suggested in some reviews I’ve read, particularly a consideration, if true, in open cars.

[BorkRacing]

I'm guessing Bork isn't wearing either of the Stilo ST5s or a Schuberth SF2 Pro. . . the 3 highest rated and most expensive off-the-shelf helmets.

Apparently he didn't think his head was really worth that much. Must have figured at some point, as long as it has the proper certification, spending extra money didn't make him proportionally safer. Same thing Rick did when buying a Zamp.

WTF are you talking about? i've been saying wear the best all along. You don't even know me or met me.
This forum sometimes has the silliest assumptions. I sitting in my study looking at my Stilo.

Best to you and try not to leave pieces of your brain in my OR

[BorkRacing]

Actually, several of the Helmet manufacturers make both with the major differences the inside lining material (not much chance of getting caught in a fire on a motorcycle ) and eye port size comparef to what most of us wear. Yes, there are those that just wear DOT brain bucket, but those are the oned who wouldn't be wearing one at all if it wasn't required. I ride my Harley in Illinois and Wisconsin where helmets are not required and am the exception since I wear one.

In Ohio they are called donorcycles.

[Daryl DeArman]

WTF are you talking about? i've been saying wear the best all along. You don't even know me or met me.
This forum sometimes has the silliest assumptions. I sitting in my study looking at my Stilo.

Yeah, but I bet it's not the model I mentioned, is it? Post a pic of you holding it at your desk and I'll apologize about my assumption.

As to your comment about my brain and its pieces in your OR, I thought you were a DDS practicing general dentistry, maybe I heard wrong.

[Daryl DeArman]

When they set the minimum standards, the manufactures meet them. Due to legal reasons (many attorneys told me this while doing my helmet), companies will never say they are SAFER than another. Just that they meet the standards.

I believe that Arai certainly implies exactly that in their advertising materials. https://www.araiamericas.com/the-ara...ence/our-story "Technical Philosophy" tab.

6d implies it as well. https://www.6dhelmets.com/innovation/

As to the $50 head/$50 helmet argument I've heard many times, I laugh at people that only value their head at $4000-5000. They don't make a helmet as valuable as I value my head, so I have to use some criteria to determine what's going to give me the best protection knowing that twice as much isn't going to make me twice as safe.

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl, I understand your bit about their ability to determine cause - but at some point you have to believe the customer- I mean why would I do such thing if I had any other option? Especially when went to pains to explain it all.

Apparently you haven't run across enough customers . Some might bugger up the threads trying to swap shields, attempt a repair and then try to return it under warranty.

I see 3 options: not race and hope to have helmet replaced under warranty. Attempt a repair and hope they replace it under warranty. Buy or borrow another helmet.

The relationship your vendor has with the manufacturer is likely to carry much more weight than one customer. Perhaps they can go to bat for you if they believe you have a valid point.

[marshall9]

Kumbaya fellas.

[Daryl DeArman]

I think Rick and I are good.

Now that wanker back east. . .

[Jtovo]

I believe that Arai certainly implies exactly that in their advertising materials. https://www.araiamericas.com/the-ara...ence/our-story "Technical Philosophy" tab.

6d implies it as well. https://www.6dhelmets.com/innovation/
.

I apologize. I made a mass generalization when I should not have. And I know better with this group.

At the end of the day, it is up to the end user to determine what product / helmet they want. Feel free to spend your money any way you wish. I will not damn someone for spending $50 or $5000 on a helmet. And I surely wont cast stones at them either.

[Jtovo]

Is there an advantage with carbon or a Kevlar composite in terms of resistance to piercing? This seems to have been suggested in some reviews I’ve read, particularly a consideration, if true, in open cars.

This is above my pay grade. But my ASSUMPTION would be yes. The way the helmet is built is what matters. Just because it has a layer of carbon fiber on top and shiny...does not always mean it is built the same as other carbon fiber helmets (better or worse). Guess it would be the same as me building a carbon fiber chassis in my garage vs. Crawford building one. I can tell you one thing...Crawfords would be better.

[SteveG]

I've purchased 2 Zamp helmets for my kids when they were doing kid karts. Both helmets shields broke in the first on-track session, I fixed them well enough to finish the first day of on-track sessions. Borrowed helmets for the second day. I figured out why the shields broke, bought another and had one replaced under warranty (Thanks Pegasus!). I engineered a little support piece and used a better screw and they used them until they outgrew them.
I would never, ever buy another Zamp product.

For those who say I should have never bought them - When buying stuff for growing kids, early stuff needs to be less expensive because they will grow out of it, quickly. It's a throw away at that point. Say I should have bought the best and sold it? No one in my area buys used stuff unless it's pennies on the dollar. I'll be happy to argue with you after you'll buy the 3 youth violins and 4 youth trumpets I have looking for a home.

Steve

[Offcamber1]

Rick,

Thanks for the warning. The initial build quality that would cause a late Saturday night crisis like that is far more disconcerting to me than the relative lack of service and support.

In the same circumstances I would have done the same thing and performed meatball surgery on the helmet. Screwing around Sunday borrowing a helmet, or abandoning the weekend, would not be viable options.

As for the helmet, two words: Target Practice!

Kip

[Rick Kirchner]

Steve - I too have a violin we've been trying to sell for nearly 10 years. The places that take your old one in trade when the kid moves up are not interested in buying the last one back.....

Keith - the owner did get back to me and lets just say my experience echoes yours. I have a theory that some people go into business for themselves because they can't work well with others.....

The vendor I bought it from got back to me and told me this is a common problem with this helmet. She thought I cross-threaded it, but the post was all the way down, and if you cross threaded an aluminum 1/4-20 you could never get it all the way down before the insert spun in the hole or the head snapped off.

So I took off the remaining good post. I thought a plausible (but perhaps improbable) cause might be if the insert was very thin that the post could screw all the way down and walk the last thread out on the inside - and then cross-thread on the way out.

However, that requires a necked post, and it's threaded all the way to the pivot shoulder. However, what I did find was that the insert had the threads completely painted - they didn't mask it when the helmet was painted. My guess is that when the post was tightened the paint cold-flowed and served as Loctite. That's why they have so many instances.

The owner is Dave Zampierin - there's the ZAMP, so there's no higher-up I can appeal to . Who knows what Chinese factory turns these out as a contract manufacturer? I told him he should feel free to have the factory mask the holes to reduce his warranty returns and consider it a free engineering consultation. What I needed was a "finger" emoji.

When I bought the Zamp what I really wanted was a Simpson Venator or a Roux R1, guess that will take the place of the Milwaukee 18V impact I was going to buy.....

[Rick Kirchner]

I think Rick and I are good.

Now that wanker back east. . .

Yeah, Daryl and I are good. But he needs to buy an FC and get back out on the track!

It was Willow Springs, what can I say. Buttonwillow at least has a shop that sells more than their logo gear, and there's always 7's-Only at the front gate.

I went all weekend without a phonemail or internet access because there's virtually no cell service there. With sundown at 5PM I was going stir crazy because the DVD player in the MoHo crapped the bed as well. I did get one text through over the course of the weekend. Made me laugh when that Kyle dude suggested I call - I bet he's never raced at Willow Springs!

[Rick Kirchner]

Tovo's video was pretty funny, but they compared a DOT Moto helmet to a Snell SA helmet (and it was a Zamp) I especially like their grasp of materials science (this one melted, the other didn't) and the kevlar visor....

Personally, I think it's time for clubs to step away from Snell unless they freeze their requirements for a couple of cycles. The helmets keep getting bigger (in the Zamp I could no longer look down and barely turn my head - which has it's own safety implications), more expensive, the manufacturers take longer and longer each cycle to get their testing down which leads to shortages and waivers at the beginning each new cycle.

And there appears to be no evidence that folks are dying from lack of head protection - unless you go head-first into a catch fence pole at 200mph, and my guess is there's not going to be a helmet standard that fixes that problem.

The problem is, Snell needs to keep making money and if they stop they will become irrelevant, so the gravy train continues.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Yeah, Daryl and I are good. But he needs to buy an FC and get back out on the track!

I'll second that. Got a 93 slider someone might be able to pry away from me.... Just haven't had the time to clean it up.

I went all weekend without a phonemail or internet access because there's virtually no cell service there.

That's a feature not a flaw - for me. Otherwise work calls.

[Kay2]

Made me laugh when that Kyle dude suggested I call - I bet he's never raced at Willow Springs!

Rick, My apologies on this situation. I actually have raced at Willow Springs, multiple times, as this "B-Spec Guy" from the northwest has raced all over the states in everything from B-Spec cars, to world challenge cars, imsa cars, GT cars, even playing on ovals, jumping into karts, and even trying (and failing) motorcycle racing as well.

Our issue is that the EPS was modified. Snell does not allow us, as a manufacturer, to touch a helmet that's EPS liner has been modified. Had the helmet not been drilled through the EPS, we likely could've warrantied the helmet out without issue. That's what I've been trying to get across, but I'm sorry that has not been worded properly before.

Again I apologize that we were not able to help you. I wish you all the best with your racing endeavors.

Kyle Keenan
Zamp Helmets

[Rick Kirchner]

Nice try. But under warranty you could replace it or repair it, so replace it if it's not repairable, because it wouldn't have been repairable anyway.

[BorkRacing]

Yeah, but I bet it's not the model I mentioned, is it? Post a pic of you holding it at your desk and I'll apologize about my assumption.

As to your comment about my brain and its pieces in your OR, I thought you were a DDS practicing general dentistry, maybe I heard wrong.

As for my profession, apparently your sources are wrong. But thats ok, I'd rather be seen as a ordinary dentist than a bully like you are.

I know you know everything, but lowly dentists also work in the OR. But someone as self important as you would never consider down syndrome patients need care under general anesthesia.

Best

Best

[Garey Guzman]

...I went all weekend without a phonemail or internet access because there's virtually no cell service there....

When I was still in Cali, I seem to remember that I could make a call in one spot, in the corner against the fence, behind the store. People stored their open trailer there so I even had something to sit on!

I bought a Zamp once, real cheap, only needed it a couple of times so I never broke it before it SCCA-spired.

[Daryl DeArman]

As for my profession, apparently your sources are wrong. But thats ok, I'd rather be seen as a ordinary dentist than a bully like you are.

I know you know everything, but lowly dentists also work in the OR. But someone as self important as you would never consider down syndrome patients need care under general anesthesia.

Best

Best

A bully? For calling you out on your pompous, supercilious attitude towards a friend who happened to buy a lower price point, no frills, SNELL approved helmet?