FV Spec tires

[BLS]

FYI, Oct I find the following from Pam's link:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

FV
1. #24977 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Request Spec Tire for FV
In GCR section 9.1.1.C.3.D, make changes as follows:

The following tires are required:”
“Fronts
Hoosier #43337 FVS
21.0 x 5.0 x 15”
“Rears
Hoosier #43353 FVS
22.5 x 5.5 x 15”

“Rain tires are open for 2019.
Effective 1/1/2020, the following rain tire is required:
Hoosier #44266
22.5 x 5.0 x 15 Hoosier WET (rain)”

[jpetillo]

I'll send out a more detailed post later when I get home, but the Slick are to be effective 1/1/2019 and the Rains (same as they currently sell) effective 1/1/2020. John

Edit: We saw the Preliminary Tech Bulletin the same time as everyone else. We intend to post the process from the FV Committee's standpoint, and we'll put that together and get it out promptly for folks to read. Otherwise, we know nothing more at this time than what we have all read in the Preliminary Tech Bulletin. John

[jpetillo]

I just posted a note on Formulavee.org...

http://formcarregistry.com/interchan...hp?f=15&t=5787

[Dave J]

I know this won't affect a large number of drivers, but how many people got "stuck" with new Hoosier slicks at the end of this season?

Why didn't the SCCA make the spec tire mandatory for mid next season so people could use their inventory of new slicks that were left over from this season? Or the spec tire could initially be an option for early next season.

They could have also mandated the spec tire for the majors events next year and allowed the regional drivers to use the "old" slicks. That way, if you couldn't use your left over slicks next season, you could sell them for regional racing.

I think the spec tire rule should be modified for next season to allow people to use or sell their left over slicks. Also, Hoosier will have some left over inventory that they can't sell - they will be stuck with tires also...

What do you think and how can we get this done????

[mikehinkle]

You can have the rule opened up to allow the use of any tire compound you want regionally.

In New England we are discussing this and will most likely have our region add the rule to the supps for the race weekend. It will allow either tire for the 2019 season.

I think you will find that a set of the current tires with 6 or so heat cycles will run the same lap times as the new spec tire. Your results may be different. Here in NE most of the guys will only have tires with 6 or more heat cycles on them starting next year so the performance advantage should be minimal if any.

Worried about someone abusing the system? The rule can always be taken away for the next event.

[Stumpthumper]

It looks like the way they are wording it people won't be able to run rears on the front any more. While I don't do this (yet) I like the idea of it to allow more tire rotating and even more life out of the tires, which is why the whole spec tire thing is here anyway.

[FVRacer21]

It looks like the way they are wording it people won't be able to run rears on the front any more. While I don't do this (yet) I like the idea of it to allow more tire rotating and even more life out of the tires, which is why the whole spec tire thing is here anyway.

I already brought this up and more to our representative and it is being looked into. In the FF rules for their spec tire it says that they cannot use fronts on the rear, but nothing about rears on front - that may turn out to be how the final rule is written.

I am for a spec tire, but am disappointed on how the 'rollout' is being handled - this takes nothing away from Hoosier or the people who did the testing.

Chris Z

[problemchild]

Too bad the 25 year "roll-out" period has come as such a surprise.
Short-term pain for a few ..... long-term gain for everybody!

Use your "open" tires for test days and practice, and your spec tires will last that much longer.

My wife gives out grocery gift cards to employees at Christmas. The employees complained because they had to go to a different store (than their usual) to get their free food. You just cannot please everybody

[Jim Kleinklaus]

I'll send out a more detailed post later when I get home, but the Slick are to be effective 1/1/2019 and the Rains (same as they currently sell) effective 1/1/2020. John

Edit: We saw the Preliminary Tech Bulletin the same time as everyone else. We intend to post the process from the FV Committee's standpoint, and we'll put that together and get it out promptly for folks to read. Otherwise, we know nothing more at this time than what we have all read in the Preliminary Tech Bulletin. John

I have a set of never used Goodyear rains, stored in tire covers off the ground in a cool lower level garage? Does this mean I would actually be prevented from using them?

[Daryl DeArman]

I have a set of never used Goodyear rains, stored in tire covers off the ground in a cool lower level garage? Does this mean I would actually be prevented from using them?

Looks really simple to me. You can use any rains you want during the 2019 season. It's not until 1/1/2020 that there is a required/spec rain tire.

[problemchild]

Looks really simple to me. You can use any rains you want during the 2019 season. It's not until 1/1/2020 that there is a required/spec rain tire.

In any case, you would not be prevented from using them, but would be subject to penalty if found to be using them. If you still have good condition Goodyear rain tires, after all this time, you would not use them very often, or very hard when you did. so unlikely to be much of a problem. I expect your FV friends would be happy that you were participating and overlook any legality issues..

[mikehinkle]

In any case, you would not be prevented from using them, but would be subject to penalty if found to be using them. If you still have good condition Goodyear rain tires, after all this time, you would not use them very often, or very hard when you did. so unlikely to be much of a problem. I expect your FV friends would be happy that you were participating and overlook any legality issues..

Problem Child is correct. Someone will have to protest you or a SCCA tech inspector would have to be checking for specific rain tires during the session. I think at most events those two people are more likely to have a beer and a laugh with you about the situation then ask you to remove the tires.

Do you have a officially allowed fuel test port on the car? I doubt it. See you are already breaking the rules =)

[FVRacer21]

Just to fill in some who might not have followed the Spec Tire Testing.

A current FV tire (55 compound) is great for 4 heat cycles, okay for the next 4 and maybe you can squeeze a couple more for practice.

So you are at 2 plus sets for a regional year of 6 race weekends. Maybe 3 if you want to be in the hunt for wins at the end of the year.

One set of the new spec tire should easily last 6 weekends (and maybe more) but I figure I would buy 1 and 1/2 sets (6 tires) and rotate them. This also gives me a spare in case of a flat or other damage.

For 2020 you would have to buy a set of rains and maybe 2 or 4 slicks, depending on how many heat cycles you put on the year before.

If the tire is as good as claimed, it will virtually eliminate the tire as a variable in a race weekend. Yes, people who have been getting by on used tires will have to ante up for a new set, but the difference in performance should offset that.

I anticipate some people will still buy multiple sets per year so I think that year 2 will see a used market open up again.

Just my crystal ball.

ChrisZ

[Dave J]

I'm very curious to see the PRODUCTION spec tire.

Anyone care to speculate on how different the production spec tire will be compared to the one Hoosier has been testing???

Does anyone know how many of the old slicks Hoosier is going to get stuck with?

[maloneyjack]

Any idea of the cost of this "spec" tyre compared the previous one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FVRacer21]

Any idea of the cost of this "spec" tyre compared the previous one?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No word on price yet but the feeling is it will be around what we are paying now - maybe a little less. I would hope (hint - hint) that Hoosier have a rebate program based on the hopefully increased number of tires they will sell - the first year at least.

Maybe if groups do bulk orders, we can get a discount, but how to factor in their dealers will be a consideration.

I think some money will be saved in mounting and dismounting tires....

ChrisZ

[Hardingfv32]

I do not see any reason for a price reduction when you consider the loss in sales volume over the long term. The price could remain about the same if they do away with the contingency program.

When I first talked about a spec tire with Hoosier it was thought that current tire could simply accept the new compound used by SM. There was no competitive reason to change what they had. For sure the tire tested looked just like the current tire on the outside. There is a rumored possibility that the cord material might change in line with Hoosiers constant efforts to find a supply of cord material for their tires. They periodically lose their source of cord material and have to find a new one. I doubt very much that they have altered the cord angles, etc. as the spec tire handled very much like the current tire according to those who tested the spec tire.

Brian

[Ed Womer]

So how much does a set of tires cost at the track when mounted? I haven't bought any tires since the runoffs in 2011 and if I remember a set of Goodyears was $700+.

So if getting 6 weekends out of a set of tires is possible is that racing for the lead in every race or driving around to have fun?

I did get to race again at the Glen for the Fun One a few weekends ago, and yes it was in a Challenge Cup legal car, which was my old car that my friend Dermot lent to me for the weekend. Needless to say I had a blast! Although the car did not have a top off the line intake that slightly hampered me, in the CC group only race on Sat. afternoon, I was able to keep with the front pack and used the draft to ultimately get into the lead even if only for part of a lap. I actually think that the race was possibly the best competitive race I have ever been in since I started racing back in the early 80's.

If you want to see the race you can go to youtube and in the search bar type in Formula Vee Watkins Glen Long Course 2018 and see the race from Trevor Carmody"s excellently edited video of his visor cam and rear facing Go Pro. Warning! if you are intimidated by close racing with a group of fellow racers this might not be for you, but if you want to race with others and not just drive around to have fun check it out.

Ed

[Hardingfv32]

Same old pointless street tire pitch. The majority of FV competitors voted for racing slicks.

When CC becomes the majority then you can ask for a change. Good luck

Brian

[Amon]

So how much does a set of tires cost at the track when mounted? I haven't bought any tires since the runoffs in 2011 and if I remember a set of Goodyears was $700+.

So if getting 6 weekends out of a set of tires is possible is that racing for the lead in every race or driving around to have fun?

I did get to race again at the Glen for the Fun One a few weekends ago, and yes it was in a Challenge Cup legal car, which was my old car that my friend Dermot lent to me for the weekend. Needless to say I had a blast! Although the car did not have a top off the line intake that slightly hampered me, in the CC group only race on Sat. afternoon, I was able to keep with the front pack and used the draft to ultimately get into the lead even if only for part of a lap. I actually think that the race was possibly the best competitive race I have ever been in since I started racing back in the early 80's.

If you want to see the race you can go to youtube and in the search bar type in Formula Vee Watkins Glen Long Course 2018 and see the race from Trevor Carmody"s excellently edited video of his visor cam and rear facing Go Pro. Warning! if you are intimidated by close racing with a group of fellow racers this might not be for you, but if you want to race with others and not just drive around to have fun check it out.

Ed

I have to agree with Ed's assessment of the race as I was also part of the 9 car pack and it was intense racing! I've had close racing with others in the past, but not with that many cars involved and you could go from 1st to 5th in one lap. Last year, I raced on four year old tires and made the podium with them in a 25+ car field so the radials are competitive well into their life cycle.

[Amon]

Same old pointless street tire pitch. The majority of FV competitors voted for racing slicks.

When CC becomes the majority then you can ask for a change. Good luck

Brian

Same old bench racing reply! When you actually get behind the wheel of an FV, maybe your reply will have some credence! The CC is gaining more and more new members each year bench racer!

[problemchild]

Same old pointless street tire pitch.

Sounded more like an invitation ...... from somebody who just had so much fun ..... that they want more people to enjoy the experience.

Similar excitement from the NE group. Great to see FV doing well, if only in a few areas!

[Amon]

Sounded more like an invitation ...... from somebody who just had so much fun ..... that they want more people to enjoy the experience.

Similar excitement from the NE group. Great to see FV doing well, if only in a few areas!

The NE FV group is doing great and should be proud of their achievements as well as the FVCC group. Well done by both!

[Hardingfv32]

Same old bench racing reply! When you actually get behind the wheel of an FV, maybe your reply will have some credence! The CC is gaining more and more new members each year bench racer!

I am an active builder, retired driver.

If you are gaining so many members then it should be no time at all before you can pass a street tire rule for all FV competitors. Again, good luck

Brian

[Amon]

Brian,

Our goal is not to force anyone onto a specific tire, but rather offer an alternative to the existing tire currently
in use which as been previously mentioned, usually lasts 4 heat cycles before experiencing a major drop off
in performance. The tire we use lasts 3-4 years or close to 70-80 heat cycles I would estimate, but whatever
a driver chooses is their business and good luck to them if they want or have the money to buy many sets of
tires each year. We've chosen another direction that has shown success in getting drivers back onto the track.
I think we all have the same goal, and that is larger FV fields and the growth in New England & via FVCC has
shown that it can occur.

Mark

[R. Pare]

Amon: What tire are you using that lasts that long? Just curious.

I have a hard time understanding why some people are against cutting their tire costs down substantially.

[Daryl DeArman]

Amon: What tire are you using that lasts that long? Just curious.

I have a hard time understanding why some people are against cutting their tire costs down substantially.

Either they don't want the lap times in their class to go from 38 minutes 22 seconds a lap to 38 minutes 28 seconds a lap. , or they are afraid that if they are on the same "footing" as everybody else they will have to re-examine the reasons they aren't winning, or they have a tire deal that they will no longer enjoy.

[FVRacer21]

Before there was a spec tire, discussions about alternate tire was reasonable.

since we now have one, on paper at least, we need to give it a chance.

To give some answers to the questions already asked:

1. the price of a set of tires was around $850.00 mounted. I am hoping the new tires would be under $800 but ......
2. For those who remember the VROC - it got about 20 competitive heat cycles, the new spec tire was required to meet and exceed that.
3. The tire is expected to be less than .5 second slower per mile of track, the anacdotal information and knowing people who have run the same lap times with these tires, should satisfy the guys who want to keep going fast.
4. The VROCs needed a lap or 2 to warm up. I am hoping the new tire is better, but don’t have any info.

chrisz

[jpetillo]

I’ll try to answer a few of the questions raised to the best of my knowledge. ChrisZ and Brian H. had some of the answers.
Tire choice: Indicated by the survey results of FV racers from a few year’s back.
Tire options: Only Hoosier came to the plate with a tire for consideration.
Tire Cost: The new tire should cost about the same as the current tire to produce, so I’d expect a similar price all else being equal. The savings will mostly be in the increased longevity.
Production Tire: Should be identical to the tires tested in compound & construction.
Cord Material: Same as we currently have. Like Brian said, Hoosier at times loses their source of materials and often has a backup ready to go. So, it might change if that happens.


I hope that helps. John

[Ed Womer]

Hi Brian,

Did I say anything about the CC tire over the Hoosier tire? I didn't think so. I asked about the cost of a set of current slicks and was trying to steer people to have a look at the race at the Glen since it was a great and competitive race.

If I was still actively racing it would be with the CC but since I just got burnt out on racing after 30+ years I have gotten to race Dermot's cars usually once a year and that is fine with me. The high cost of racing with slicks will always be there even with a spec tire since they just cost more and have no where the longevity. If going 2 seconds a lap faster is important to anyone then go with the slicks but if you want reduced costs and I mean big reduced costs, then maybe you might want to do the CC series. Again if you are afraid of close racing then I suggest you stay with the slick crowd.

Of course if you want to be the fastest and buy your way there then don't come to the CC or for that fact any other series where there is close competition due to lower costs because there really isn't anything to blame your performance on except yourself.

Ed

[Hardingfv32]

I have a hard time understanding why some people are against cutting their tire costs down substantially.

For the majority of active SCCA FV competitors the main criteria for tire selection is not cost, it is performance. They desired a spec tire that had performance similar (not equal or better) to the current Hoosier slick. No street tire was going to meet that requirement.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Did I say anything about the CC tire over the Hoosier tire?

Regardless of what your said, the conversation has changed form the new official SCCA spec tire to the CC choice. Just the same cast of CC characters trying to relitigate the spec tire choice.

CC has a valid approach that was not accepted by the majority of SCCA FV competitors. Enjoy your choice, grow your series and comeback when you are the majority.

Brian

[B Farnham]

For the majority of active SCCA FV competitors the main criteria for tire selection is not cost, it is performance. They desired a spec tire that had performance similar (not equal or better) to the current Hoosier slick. No street tire was going to meet that requirement.

Brian

Where is the data to back up that claim?

Thanks,
Brian

[Amon]

Regardless of what your said, the conversation has changed form the new official SCCA spec tire to the CC choice. Just the same cast of CC characters trying to relitigate the spec tire choice.

CC has a valid approach that was not accepted by the majority of SCCA FV competitors. Enjoy your choice, grow your series and comeback when you are the majority.

Brian

Bench racer,

Fake news again! We're NOT trying to relitigate anything nor do we give a Da#n if other FV drivers want to carry on with slicks or not! What we want to see are more FV's on the track, regardless of what tire they're on. Enjoy your bench racing, build your car and come back when you actually know what you're talking about. We're actually out there racing, spending our hard earned money and enjoying ourselves with other racers, instead sitting in a basement typing on a keyboard speculating and misinterpreting other's posts. As the previous post stated, where is your data to back up your claim. Until you provide it, your post is nothing more than your own speculation.

[problemchild]

Where is the data to back up that claim?

Thanks,
Brian

That is an outrageous statement, even by Harding standards.

The key, I am sure, to his conclusion is the "active SCCA" part. That his opinion is even worth arguing, is that after 40 years of $500-800 sets of tires, some of which did not even last a weekend, that hundreds of the hardcore FV racers have left the class, leaving a small group that do spend a lot of money racing FV, and are more accepting of tire cost.

Ironically, he does not separate those with tire deals from his conclusion. Those with tire deals have been the biggest impediment to sensible tires. The pressure brought by the spec FV tire movement is the reason why the current tires are so much better than the tires of 20 years ago (when the LF was junk after a single session). Unfortunately, in that 20 years, the class size is dramatically reduced.

Monday was the 38th anniversary of the first street car radial tire test on a FV. It took the success of the Challenge Cup, to bring that pressure to the point where a spec FV tire could get done. So even if FV racers don't go the Challenge Cup/F1200 route, the FV community owes a lot of gratitude to that group for making the spec FV tire a reality. It is a win-win!

[Hardingfv32]

...leaving a small group that do spend a lot of money racing FV, and are more accepting of tire cost.

Yes, this is exactly correct. Nothing outrageous about it, just a fact about where the class stands today. Those who remain 'active' and represent the majority of tire sales volume want a slick racing tire. They are not concerned about a big price reduction. The spec tire was NOT developed to attract low budget racers.

Again, the street tire idea is valid. Grow your idea so you can comeback and demand its acceptance by SCCA.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Bench racer,etc....

So, derogatory statements is how you vent your frustration about the facts that I present? Try developing a intelligent counter argument before you post next time.

BF- I do not have the SCCA FV Spec Tire survey in front of me, but I will stand by the claim that the majority of active competitors wanted a slick. Do you really think anything is go to change by challenging that statement? You are just pouting about the spec tire choice.

For goodness sake, we do not have basements in sunny Southern California. I am out in the shop working on the car in a T shirt and shorts. Playing with you in a fun distraction.

Brian

[problemchild]

I read back through the thread and I did not get any sense of any cast of characters trying to relitigate anything.

The FVCC and F1200 guys seem content with their racing and growth, The spec tire can only help the racing and growth with the NEFV group. Both groups seem full of optimism and positive energy.

[FVRacer21]

I am not a moderator, nor am I volunteering for it (you would not like me if I had the power .)

If I was - I would delete some of the posts.

This is a thread about the new SCCA FV Spec Tires and within a dozen e-mails we got into an argument again over which tire is best, and none of the people commenting have ever driven on the new tire.

No wonder it took 55 years to get a Spec Tire......

If you want to discuss the best tire for Formula Vee - please start a new thread. Anything else and you are trolling.

ChrisZ

[jhenn4716]

I am not a moderator, nor am I volunteering for it (you would not like me if I had the power .)

If I was - I would delete some of the posts.

This is a thread about the new SCCA FV Spec Tires and within a dozen e-mails we got into an argument again over which tire is best, and none of the people commenting have ever driven on the new tire.

No wonder it took 55 years to get a Spec Tire......

If you want to discuss the best tire for Formula Vee - please start a new thread. Anything else and you are trolling.

ChrisZ

This discussion is about a Spec Tire. We are not talking about other tires used in other series. We now have a spec tire in FV so let us discuss that.

There is no need for negative comments or attacking anyone. Whether you currently race or have raced in the past, you know what it takes to race in one of our cars. Let's keep it civil.