Fun One Glen

[veeten]

Three Wide Challenge Cup on Run to Last Lap, Never seen a Ford narrow enough to make that gap. First Pic is on right

[Amon]

Sherman,

Vey optimistic move by the FF that could have ended much worse than It actually did and the guy was not only trying
to pass you, but the other two Vee's to your left as you know. I'm glad I pulled in after seeing some of this on the track
when they went past me. Some of the FF drivers were acting as if it was the last lap of the Runoff's.

Mark

[veeten]

Hi Mark
We just finished fixing the damage, not sure how much the ford got!!
I know trevor hit him when he spun across track.
Other Ford drivers came to Impound after the race to
see if all were OK, never heard from the driver who tried to make the
pass.
Hope to see you at the track soon

[Roux]

sorry for the hazy picture. Got sprayed with oil somewhere along the race

I start down the right side with tons of room. If all 4 vee drivers check their mirrors they should be able so see me. I am well to the side

[Roux]

no clear gap so I ride along next to the 4th car

[Roux]

81 sees me and leaves me room and at about the same time the #10 moves LEFT to block the car running up the inside. A decent lane opens up on the right

[Roux]

at that time there was a lane on either side of the 10 but I suspect he was watching the car on his inside and never checked on the right. Then to get a good run into the upcoming left hander he veered right to open up his entry and by then I was beside him. I went as far right to make room but it was not enough to avoid touching wheels. The only contact at that time was to my left rear tire (sidewall) which is the result of the 10 moving quite abruptly to the right. If he was already in my lane I would have had contact with my front tire since my car has a wider front overall width than at the rear (by quite a bit)

I am sorry this happened. I wish we could both bring 40+ cars of each class and have our own groups. The racing would be even better.

I also think that a pack of cars dueling will sometimes miss the intent of a blue flag (assuming one is waved) and not notice that their group just grew to 6 cars from 4.

Steve

[Bernard Bradpiece]

So two views of the same incident (not necessarily a Vee v Ford racing together risk issue)

1. Vee: Vee had rights to the corner. The Ford went for a gap that was not there.

2. Ford: Vee had already made one protective move left then made second move right when Ford was well on the way to passing. Vee did not have 360 situational awareness and moved into the Ford.

Curious, which is it?

BB2

[stonebridge20]

So two views of the same incident (not necessarily a Vee v Ford racing together risk issue)

1. Vee: Vee had rights to the corner. The Ford went for a gap that was not there.

2. Ford: Vee had already made one protective move left then made second move right when Ford was well on the way to passing. Vee did not have 360 situational awareness and moved into the Ford.

Curious, which is it?

BB2

From the evidence presented by both parties, #2

[problemchild]

I have been on both sides of this and consider all involved to be friends. It is a tough situation that is a by-product of multi-class racing. Do you know how hard it is, when you are leading a 4 car pack of FVs, to keep an eye on the pack of cars in another class, going 10 seconds faster, who are all trying to pass? What the lead FV needed. was for his FV friends behind, to recognize the dangerous situation, stay inline, and not fan out. Had this happened, as only the 81 appeared to be doing, both groups would have finished the lap and fought it out with each other on the last lap.

Both groups are doing really good things for their racing classes, and are partners in keeping affordable formula car racing healthy in our area. I think we should all learn from this situation, minimize any hostility, and move forward. Both RCFFS and FVCC rock!

[Roux]

My posts were only intended to add context . Looking just at the first two pictures in the thread show #19 FF going for a gap that is at best big enough for a motorcycle. That is the state of the gap at that moment only. And the state had changed

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Greg,
The question was not designed to drive any wedges etc., it was a question about learning.

Peter Krause started the 360 thing, we had been calling it Situational Awareness and added in the 360 as it helped make the point. Its not only mixed groups that have a 10sec differential, most Ford racing can have a 10 sec differential so the learning is similar. Although true that V's are a little different, due to the limited power - you can never lift!

In this instance the photos seem to show the V's started the straight in line on the left. The front V moved right 2/3 across the track, possibly to cover a drafting attempt on the right, and another V followed. At that point there was still room for the Ford. The front V then moved back left perhaps to cover the V behind closing on the left. Now plenty of room for the Ford. At what looks like about 400 before the next corner the front V moves back right into the Ford.

The need for 360 Situational Awareness is one of the most difficult aspects of racing. Its hard enough dealing with adjusting the levers and gauges and getting oneself around the track without falling off. The rules generally are that the car doing the lapping has primary responsibility for a safe pass. From the pictures the Ford seems to be in a position to make a safe pass. I am certain the V was being driven by an experienced driver. There appear to be tthree moves. At VRG we have a one move only rule - two moves is determined to be blocking. Not certain SCCA has this rule. But this incident appears to be a fail in 360 Situational Awareness. Happens to the best of us in the heat of battle with laser focus on the immediate competition.

At our drivers meetings we constantly impress on the need for 360 Situational Awareness, yet our major cause of contact continues to be cars being lapped that are unaware of the closing car. Anything further we can do to help get people focused on this to reduce the number of incidents would be welcome. That was the discussion I hoped we might get from this learning experience.

Best
BB

[Amon]

I fail to see the three moves that are being mentioned in the above post? It appears that the lead Vee moved once to the left and then back to the right setting up for the upcoming left hander, and the move back to the right doesn't appear to be for covering a vee right behind him? It's hard to tell by the photo's and several assumptions are being made by Monday / Tuesday morning quarterback's as they use to say. Remember at this point in the race, all of these cars are going close to 100+ mph and you better be sure of the trajectory of those cars you're lapping before doing so.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Amon,
Am I misreading? I see him start with the others in line on the left. Move right to 2/3 way across the track (1), move left to 1/3 away across the track possibly to cover the car on the inside (2) then move right again (3) the last of which created contact. Calling this Monday morning quarterbacking is, with respect, not helpful nor the intent as I indicated. I have no skin in the game, do not know the participants but am interested in the collective wisdom usually found on Apexspeed about an issue we are facing in another series trying to ensure safe lapping. Any constructive comments would be really welcome.

BB

[Amon]

Amon,
Am I misreading? I see him start with the others in line on the left. Move right to 2/3 way across the track (1), move left to 1/3 away across the track possibly to cover the car on the inside (2) then move right again (3) the last of which created contact. Calling this Monday morning quarterbacking is, with respect, not helpful nor the intent as I indicated. I have no skin in the game, do not know the participants but am interested in the collective wisdom usually found on Apexspeed about an issue we are facing in another series trying to ensure safe lapping. Any constructive comments would be really welcome.

BB

BB,

I was there and almost hit twice, so I guess I'm biased.

Mark

[FVRacer21]

At one time I proposed a line down the middle of the track and FV on the left side and FF on the right - after everyone stopped laughing, I said okay, now let's figure out how to share the track.....

Pictures are not good enough, you need the video.

Questions I have:
1. Assume the short course, going into 10? (edit - after looking at a video, looks like before that?)
2. Was this really the last lap of the race or was there one more at the line? (edit - must not have been)
3. It looks like a flag station above the track to the left showing a blue flag - how long was that showing?
4. Was the FF getting pressure from behind or leading it's own race?

it looks like the perfect storm. If it was the last lap (had to be as the FF lapping the Vees would have made it so). You have 4 equal Vees in a big draft (watch other videos) fighting for a win.

3 items
1. Blue flag (if out in time) should have caused situational awareness. Remember - not a command flag....
2. Responsibility of overtaking car to complete pass
3. Responsibility of overtaken car not to block.

There are a lot of "ifs" in this scenario and one thing definite, absent a wave by (and don't bring up the opening scene in "Grand Prix") never assume a driver has seen you or knows your there.

ChrisZ

[Michael Rand]

Everyone has an opinion just as everyone has an.....
I was a few feet behind Steve Roux as we caught the Vee pack at a bad spot, not that there is a good spot on he short course to catch a pack of battling slower class cars, and there was sufficient darting around by everyone that all the chat about situational awareness [which I agree with and have been preaching for years ] almost becomes irrelevant as every driver in his car was laser focused on the best way forward for themselves.
As the last car in the scrum I had the ability to sit and wait and see what evolved.
It could have gone either way.
No fingers pointed at anyone.
I had recaught up to Steve and appreciate his quandary. He made a choice in a split second and as things turned out it was wrong, but THERE WAS NO RIGHT OR GOOD CHOICE !
Steve and I had battled back and forth and with few laps left , there were in fact about to be 2 laps left, when we got to S/F, there could have been.
One can easily say well he could/should have gotten off the gas and waited for the short chute between 10 nd 11.
In the heat of battle with a competitor literally feet behind, who among us old even consider that option ?
No proper racer that I know.....
I was happy to see Steve did not wad his car up on the barriers drivers left as he spun across my bows, just dumb luck no further contact.
Sorry for the incident in total and for the sllght, I think, damage to Sherman Englers car,
It could have been really ugly....
Sometimes I wish had a camera !

[FVRacer21]

Mike,

can always run down to Target or Walmart - cheap vivitar action cams for less than $50.00. (Memory cards cost though)

see you at Thompson? And no - you can’t run with the Vees this week

ChrisZ