Cheating

[Daryl DeArman]

So, they created a new series to deal with some guys that caused problems. Why didn't the club just refuse their entry ?
Or does that mean the troublemakers were on the board? Friends of the board?

You prefer the dictatorship approach? I'm sure you wouldn't if they refused your entry.

I guess I like a rule book and some rights and recourse.

1. Host club didn't want the entries to go away (possibly for a variety of reasons).

2. Suspect engine builder didn't want any of his engines torn down by a potentially biased party.

3. New series is created so that all the folks that were willing to have their engines scrutinized for legality can race against each other and not against people that may be utilizing non-compliant engines.

4. Sole supplier of legal piston knows that he didn't sell pistons to this other engine builder, and the other engine builder must be getting them from somewhere.

5. Other engine builder has been in business for many decades and has a long-standing relationship with multiple parts manufactures. He certainly knows how to build race engines, but is new to the FF world. Builds a few "too fast" motors, ruffles some feathers and raises a few eyebrows.

6. FF long time supporter engine builder believes that custom made, illegal pistons were provided and utilized in these motors with markings identical to those made for him.

7. ...and so it goes...

[BorkRacing]

GCR page 32
4.4.6. Refusing an Entry
Even if an entry meets all the requirements outlined in 4.4.1., above, the organizers have the right to refuse
an entry without giving a reason. If an entry is refused, notification must be sent to the entrant or driver at
the address on the Entry Form as soon as possible, and normally at least 5 days before the event.

You can say anything you want in your event or track rules, that does not make it legal. Signing the consent form when you enter a track in NYS is meaningless because you cannot consent to negligence in that state. Agrreing to discriminatory rules does not make discrimination legal. Again, it's not who wins but what it costs to defend.

Also you do not need to be part of a "group" to be discriminated against. Also we do have female drivers and young male drivers...so the old white man comment was kinda silly.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

1. Host club didn't want the entries to go away (possibly for a variety of reasons).

2. Suspect engine builder didn't want any of his engines torn down by a potentially biased party.

So, again the "entry$" wins. Anyone that tears down an engine is biased since they are looking for violations.

5. Other engine builder has been in business for many decades and has a long-standing relationship with multiple parts manufactures. He certainly knows how to build race engines, but is new to the FF world. Builds a few "too fast" motors, ruffles some feathers and raises a few eyebrows.

6. FF long time supporter engine builder believes that custom made, illegal pistons were provided and utilized in these motors with markings identical to those made for him.

So, what happens to the long time builder's relationship with the supplier? I'm sure the 'other' engine builder does more business with these suppliers than the long time supporter.

Is 6 an assumption? Or did they tear down a motor?

This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly.

[Jim Garry]

One of the human mind's most powerful negative tools is rationalizing.

People naturally want to feel good about themselves. If you want to be a race winner but don't have the necessary skill, then rationalization may cause you to conclude that "everyone cheats, so I will to".

Seen it. Heard people say it.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

So, again the "entry$" wins. Anyone that tears down an engine is biased since they are looking for violations.




So, what happens to the long time builder's relationship with the supplier? I'm sure the 'other' engine builder does more business with these suppliers than the long time supporter.

Is 6 an assumption? Or did they tear down a motor?

This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly.

Do not understand the "This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly".
Can you explain what is the "happens" and why this is "what happens".

Thanks
BB2

[Daryl DeArman]

So, again the "entry$" wins. Anyone that tears down an engine is biased since they are looking for violations.

The rub is trying to find somebody knowledgeable enough about the engines and rules to complete the teardown without them either being your competitors' engine builder or having close ties to another engine builder.

So, what happens to the long time builder's relationship with the supplier? I'm sure the 'other' engine builder does more business with these suppliers than the long time supporter.

Who knows?

Is 6 an assumption? Or did they tear down a motor?

I wouldn't know for certain if any suspect motors were torn down and inspected. I heard that request was refused under the proposed conditions of the teardown(s).

The "assumption/accusation" is there are pistons that were made to a drawing that were materially different than the legal piston and supplied to the other engine builder. Heck, those pistons could have been made and utilized in testing on a dyno mule motor. Perhaps to lobby for an alternate p/n approval. But, IF that were the case, why have them made with the same identifying markings?

This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly.

Agreed. Though, Jay has put in all the time, blood, sweat and tears supporting the class for years. Without his contributions/efforts where would we be with regards to alternate parts availability and current engine longevity? Does that not warrant some reward? However, doesn't an entrant have the right to have his engine built by a builder of his choice? If that engine builder doesn't want to buy parts from a competing engine builder should he have to? How do you incentivize somebody like Jay to put in the work required to get the next alternate component if he can't recover much/most/all of his costs?

[problemchild]

This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly.

Counterfeit or imitation parts have nothing to do with the GCR, monopoly, or any organization.

It is a willful intent to cheat, and the entire responsibility lies with the cheater.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Do not understand the "This is what happens when the GCR grants a monopoly".
Can you explain what is the "happens" and why this is "what happens".

Thanks
BB2

People look for alternatives because of cost. And then they decide that while they are committing this fraud maybe they could just make it better.

Who knows. Maybe people weren't getting a long and refused to supply the legit product.

The point is that most of these monopolies are mostly just common parts. Anyone can order custom made products from these manufacturers (as the monopoly holders do). People know this. Why should I have to pay $100 for a marking just because a monopoly was granted.

In some cultures this is called business. In the US we typically respect and value these intangible rights - just until we see that latest movie release on DVD at the swap meet for $1.

In this case fraud occurred when the markings were placed on the product. Could get nasty. Product supplies could dry up.

[Daryl DeArman]

Counterfeit or imitation parts have nothing to do with the GCR, monopoly, or any organization.

Sure they do. Why do you think counterfeit SFI tags exist, for one well-known racing related example.

It is a willful intent to cheat, and the entire responsibility lies with the cheater.

Agreed, if that is proven. Then we can argue about who is the cheater. . .the driver(s), the car owner(s), or the engine builder? I don't know that many folks pay to have an engine built by a professional shop and then turn around and take it apart to make sure they are legal.

[problemchild]

Sure they do. Why do you think counterfeit SFI tags exist, for one well-known racing related example.



.

You are putting my comment in a completely different context. If a driver, owner, engine builder intentionally uses cheater parts in place of legal parts, there is only so much blame we can put on the system. They have clear intent to cheat the system, and will just cheat differently if you change the system.

That is not to say we cannot make the system better, just not that we should blame the system when people cheat.

[swiftdrivr]

Now let's look at this issue from a professional engine builder's point of view. How do you think he feels when one of his best engines that he knows is capable of running up front (not talking Hondas) at any SCCA event gets blown off down the straights? Repeatedly! What do you think that could do to his business? Formula Ford was built on the fact that all the top engines were close to equal. That is what makes the class work, It is basically a driver's class. If we as a community want to keep the people around who have supported us over the years by building reliable engines with good equatable power we need to work at keeping things legal. We also should thank the people who have made sure that we have legal parts that match up closely with the original parts power capability, but are much more reliable. Yes, they cost more, but look how many more competitive hours we are getting out of the engines. ..........OK off my soap box.....

Good point, and one I hadn't considered. Perhaps the engine builders would like to help us enforce legality. They surely know how to check for cheater engines, i would think. Maybe a coupe of them show up at some races and inspect the top 4-6 motors. As I understand it, the only person to ever be protested [to my knowledge] during my time racing in the SE didn't get inspected because nobody knew how [the first time], and nobody would pay 6 grand [the second time; same guy]. It seems the engine builders have a financial interest in making the protest system work, and we could use their help, because right now, it seems that it doesn't, even when we try.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Counterfeit or imitation parts have nothing to do with the GCR, monopoly, or any organization.

It is a willful intent to cheat, and the entire responsibility lies with the cheater.

So, what do you do if the 'supplier' won't sell you or your engine builder parts?
Was this all with an intent to cheat? Why bother with fraudulent markings if you won't allow a tear down?

Not justifying anything here but it seems the customer, builder AND manufacturer were all complicit in this fraud.

The GCR supplier now has a problem. If they assert their rights they'll dry up the supply of parts. If they go to a different manufacturer, is it now the same part?

When anything but OEM or like parts are sited in the GCR you blur the line between formula and spec.

What a mess.

[Daryl DeArman]

If a driver, owner, engine builder intentionally uses cheater parts in place of legal parts, there is only so much blame we can put on the system. They have clear intent to cheat the system, and will just cheat differently if you change the system.

Agreed----but do we know that's what happened here?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Perhaps the engine builders would like to help us enforce legality. They surely know how to check for cheater engines, i would think. Maybe a coupe of them show up at some races and inspect the top 4-6 motors.

SM. 2014 Runoffs. Core shift, plunge cut, blending. The engine builders wrote the rules, "misinterpreted" them, and claimed they were vague. 9 customers lost their finish position trusting their builders. Rules say it's the racers responsibility.

Not sure it'll work.

[Chris Livengood]

I've never campaigned a vintage FF, though I do have ready access to one that I will almost certainly run in the future. I have however campaigned a vintage FV multiple times and cheating is rampant there. I know because I've compared data and seen the 6mph difference on the straight. Later, when the push rods popped off and the owner couldn't repair the engine I did the repairs for him out of the spirit of competition. At that point it was easy to identify an advantage. Beyond that, there are like a thousand other things that are pretty far outside the intent of rules that are often plainly visible on many vintage cars, at least this is the case where I race. This in mind, I'm surprised so many are upset over this. I just assumed that everybody assumed that in vintage racing there was a lot of cheating. Personally I have never cheated on purpose, in fact I've only ever been DQ'd three times in my 25 years of racing and all three were complete accidents, none represented an advantage, but the rules are the rules and I rightfully did the walk of shame. In karting, you might get tech'd after every competitive session, in cars it seems the technical difficulties are high enough that never really happens. But lots of guys cheat because they can, and many of them are not interested in technical inspection. They simply would go elsewhere. When you are collecting entry fees in exchange for plastic trophies it's hard to be picky about your clientèle.

[Daryl DeArman]

So, what do you do if the 'supplier' won't sell you or your engine builder parts?
Was this all with an intent to cheat? Why bother with fraudulent markings if you won't allow a tear down?

<snip>

What a mess.

That's one way to ensure that you continue to build the vast majority of the engines for a specific class. Refuse to sell the potential competition the required bits and pieces. I don't know that is what happened here though. Perhaps Jay knew of this other guys' reputation and didn't think his involvement in the class would be good for the class or his business.

The markings are on the piston so that a tear down isn't required to ensure the correct pistons are being utilized with a certain degree of confidence. . .until this.

Yep. A mess. Folks just want to move on and consider the issue solved. Perhaps it is, and will be, until Sonoma.

[problemchild]

Agreed----but do we know that's what happened here?

I have no idea what is going on here.
This very unsavory thread has about 10 sub-threads running through it, mostly by people that don't know anything either, but are venting decades worth of anger, frustration, etc.

I would suggest that there should be a separate thread started to discuss the imitation FF piston situation, and we get someone familiar with that situation, to make a "on the record" statement so that we can get some clarity.

It sounds like some cheaters ordered cheater pistons with "legal" markings that will pass a quickie inspection. I expect the pistons would be found illegal if put through a full inspection, but there seems to be some issue with that.

Personally, I don't go racing where I believe cheating is an issue. If it becomes an issue, I attempt to deal with it. If not resolved, I will go somewhere else. I am privileged to live where I can do about 50-60 races a year within reasonable driving range. I can take my racing, and my customer's racing, to the events providing the best customer experience.

[Peter Olivola]

You can say anything you want in your event or track rules, that does not make it legal. Signing the consent form when you enter a track in NYS is meaningless because you cannot consent to negligence in that state. Agrreing to discriminatory rules does not make discrimination legal. Again, it's not who wins but what it costs to defend.

Also you do not need to be part of a "group" to be discriminated against. Also we do have female drivers and young male drivers...so the old white man comment was kinda silly.

Where's the discrimination? This takes place before the track consent form is signed, i.e., the region refuses to accept the entry. Seems to me, the burden would be on the entrant to prove discrimination. The way it's done is to refuse the entry with no explanation, as provided in the GCR. Even Ghost Busters would have a difficult time establishing protected class discrimination.

The comments about women and minors are not responsive to my post.

[Thomas Copeland]

I won my first regional championship in the SCCA in 2001 at the final race of the year after I discovered my nearest competitor in impound with weights in his helmet. I told him to take them out. After that he was found to be underweight. Turns out he had been racing all year underweight (whereas I was 120 lbs overweight with car) and I was beating him (that last race my engine seized and he would have won the championship if he had finished).

But you know, it's one thing to have a competitor cheat, but quite another when an organizing body cheats, like the way the SCCA is cheating now with their made up in secret back dated car count criteria. That's when you know the entire system can't be trusted any longer. And that's a sad, sad, sad, day for all of us.

[Daryl DeArman]

I would suggest that there should be a separate thread started to discuss the imitation FF piston situation, and we get someone familiar with that situation, to make a "on the record" statement so that we can get some clarity.

The thread was likely started to kickstart the discussion with regards to the "imitation FF piston" situation...and the cheating, in general, that happens. People hear that Bonds was denied entry to the HoF again, they start a thread on that and suddenly we are talking about corked bats, McGwire, pine tar, scuffing baseballs and all kinds of stuff.

Until any and all potential lawsuits are squashed/resolved, I don't think anybody with any first hand knowledge of the situation is going to make any "on the record" statements. Engine builder "A" has been mum. Engine builder "B" has been mum.

It sounds like some cheaters ordered cheater pistons with "legal" markings that will pass a quickie inspection. I expect the pistons would be found illegal if put through a full inspection, but there seems to be some issue with that.

Alternatively, an engine builder with decades of experience, started building FF engines. He acquired some pistons from a source that allegedly, wasn't supposed to sell them to him. Now those pistons are in question and he has issue with the details of proposed inspection. I don't feel comfortable calling those who were using his engines cheaters because I don't know that they knew nor have those engines, to my knowledge, been torn down. Never mind the issue of lack of custody of said engines. It's now a no-win situation for those who used that engine builder.

Personally, I don't go racing where I believe cheating is an issue. If it becomes an issue, I attempt to deal with it. If not resolved, I will go somewhere else. I am privileged to live where I can do about 50-60 races a year within reasonable driving range. I can take my racing, and my customer's racing, to the events providing the best customer experience.

Agreed.

[swiftdrivr]

It's about having fun, not being fastest. Alonso isn't worried about us.

I was wrong. Alonso is so worried about us, he quit.

Seriously, I was blissfully unaware of the piston issue, and still don't know much. Is it only a problem in vintage? Is vintage a totally separate issue? Are they a performance issue, or a technical / contractual / "monopoly" issue? Can they be detected only with a complete teardown? Are they planning on that at the runoffs? When does it go to court, and will that settle anything?

Still, at my level, it's about learning to drive this package as fast as my talents [meager though they are] will let me. Maybe "everybody is cheating" and I'm actually world-class talented, but I don't think so; I still have some reliable yardsticks out there, and the data 'suggests otherwise'. Maximizing my skills, somebody to dice with, and friends to enjoy after the cars are parked are what it's all about to me. At the very least, cheaters give up a third of that, and known cheaters give up two thirds. Seems a sad way to go, to me.

[Thomas Copeland]

Daryl Arman posted:

The thread was likely started to kickstart the discussion with regards to the "imitation FF piston" situation.

oh man, you're getting in the way of me stirring the pot and taking this thread in a different direction....

[Bill Manofsky]

I haven't been to one in several years, but VARA used to do have an annual tech day down in the LA basin somewhere. the FFs were actually done at a different facility and Wayne pulled every valve cover, put a measuring device on the cam and rotated it, and used a device to determine displacement. I believe they also did a compression check (but that's hard to catch anyone but the most blatant cheaters).

No, it won't pick up long rod engines or other illegal components with numbers you can't see. But it get's the majority of the issues. I believe those methods continued into "the Series" and worked pretty well until the latest kerfuffle.

So Mr Harvey, if you want to throw shade, do so at your own club.

I agree with Kirchner.....

Simple post race inspections of the podium winners like taking off valve covers and measuring lift or even taking off a head to measure the volume of the combustion chamber will deter a lot of cheating.

Most people don't use valve cover gaskets anyway, so what it will cost to measure lift is a tube of Permatex.

Bill

[Jayeff]

It's hard to keep this narrowed to one issue but I'm going to try. If a driver refuses a teardown, shouldn't the rules bar him from further entries in that organization's events until the situation is resolved? Wouldn't the refusal be Prima Facie evidence of cheating? Is there some reason a teardown can't be agreed to as part of the entry? If a vintage organization finds someone is in violation of its rules, what's to keep that person from simply going to some other organization and continuing to cheat? Can't we get some sort of uniformity between organizations on procedures to follow if one was to be interested in protesting?

[Phil Creighton]

When I was on the BOD we had an issue with a sole supplier refusing to sell components for a class to another competing builder.
The policy was changed to make sure there was no repeat of this .
Back to subject in hand:
Shortage of legal FF parts - we have allowed engine builders in FC and FF to submit replacement parts to the CRB where the old Ford stuff is going away or reduced quality. We've done it with FF heads,cranks,blocks,pistons etc. In FC heads,cams,rods,pistons etc.
The issue at hand is that a non-compliant part has apparently been stamped with the approved part designation. Has nothing to do monopolies or sole suppliers. The part is different, I am told, and NOT approved. Its not about saving money or some of the other BS I have read here.
Phil

[Roland V. Johnson]

First off the marking on the pistons is on the bottom of the pin boss. ie You cannot see it unless you pull the oil pan. If there are pistons out there with legal marking and illegal profile, and they get on the open market someone can be cheating without knowing it. People who think pulling the valve cover and checking the lift will do anything to insure legality do not know what goes on. Most of the cheater cams done intentionally for FF have the correct lift, the correct lobe centers, and overlap. They open at the right time and close at the right time and open the right amount. However, what they do in between is quite different. They open much quicker stay open longer and close more suddenly. They make significantly more power. That is why the SCCA published years ago a cam profile. For every 10 degrees of rotation there is a lift number. I still have mine. Now everyone just uses a Cam Doctor. Asking the engine builders to tear down someone else's engine would never work. The conflict of interest arguments would be insane.

Where is Frank Schultheis when you need him. Let's see how many remember this name.

[BorkRacing]

It's a thread on cheating, SCCA prepped engines to be specific. Pertains to the Runoffs in the end but at this point in club racing, winning the Runoffs may not have the same prestige it did 20 or 30 years ago. You won the Runoffs this year? Great! that and $5 gets you a cup of Starbucks. And oh, Roger is on the phone with a contract...maybe!

Someone made an offhand comment that most cheating occurs in vintage racing. Who cares and guess he was never involved in SRF.

Cheating is low handed and dirty, no doubt. As Carroll Smith said: Never cheat, if someone does appeal to them. If they ignore you show them how it's done by reading between the lines and into every grey area there is. Seems like a simple concept to me.

Seems someone felt the need to show all those with "proper" serial number pistons that the rules are easily manipulated. Who cares. What did they get, a plastic trophy? Yawn, Yawn.

Do people cheat in vintage FF? For sure, I can hear their hot cam engines in the paddock. Do I care? No, I am there to better myself, my car and enjoy racing among friends. To me and many that is the basic concept of vintage FF racing.

If you are 12yo and hoping to be the next honey badger in F1, accept cheating as a part of your career experience. It will be there every day. Some days it will be clever interpretation of the rules, other days it will be blatant out and out cheating. Your conscense will guide you there, not this silly thread!

Does it seem odd to me that the solution is to create a club based on discrimination? Yes. Race tracks and clubs can be considered places of public accommodation. You cannot discriminate at those locals, even if private. Sure, it must be based on the standard race, sex, religion etc. But after $500,000 in legal fees the judge says no evidence it was discrimination and oh, BTW bankruptcy hearings are down the hall. Why even approach that slippery slope? Especially in a nanny state like Cali?

What's next "only red car" racing? "Men who shave twice a day" racing? "People who prefer blondes" racing? It's silly and pretencious. Thank God I don't live on THAT coast...ooops I mentioned a religious deity, I may be excluded from "athiest only" racing now.

So, as I see it, if you cheat karma will get you. Maybe SCCA stewards will too. If you get all upset about cheating, heart disease and GI upset will get you. If you love racing and don't give a flying "F" if someone cheats in vintage like I do...see you soon at a track.

Robby

[Daryl DeArman]

First off the marking on the pistons is on the bottom of the pin boss. ie You cannot see it unless you pull the oil pan.

Thanks for the clarification Roland. That's contrary to the information I received as to where said markings were.

If there are pistons out there with legal marking and illegal profile, and they get on the open market someone can be cheating without knowing it.

Agreed. Even if they aren't on the open market, an engine builder could utilize them without their customers' knowledge. Knowing their customer will likely never know. . .and their motor services will look like a great alternative.

People who think pulling the valve cover and checking the lift will do anything to insure legality do not know what goes on. Most of the cheater cams done intentionally for FF have the correct lift, the correct lobe centers, and overlap. They open at the right time and close at the right time and open the right amount. However, what they do in between is quite different. They open much quicker stay open longer and close more suddenly. They make significantly more power. That is why the SCCA published years ago a cam profile. For every 10 degrees of rotation there is a lift number. I still have mine. Now everyone just uses a Cam Doctor. Asking the engine builders to tear down someone else's engine would never work. The conflict of interest arguments would be insane.

Agreed. I had a pro-built FV engine enter my hands that had a custom ground camshaft that produced the correct lift and duration. The lobe centers and shape of ramps and nose were quite different. The engine had been scrutinized before I acquired it. Obviously, never put on a cam doctor or had the lift v. duration profile plotted by hand, only duration and max lift. I didn't have any point of reference as to what a legal FV engine should be like. I only knew that my very first time in a FV, I ran fast lap and Shaun Modisette and I swapped the lead several times that race. I had lots of experience, but none in a FV. So I was expecting to be fast, but I was making mistakes and still running up front with a young "kid", in a newer FV, who was on slicks, who was also racing in the F2000 pro series. Talk about some red flags being raised in my head. I was chatting with Murray Chalmers after the race and expressing my frustrations over my crappy driving and thinking something might be amiss with the engine. I mentioned some rpms at various reference points on the track, and Murray said, "I'd get that motor checked out, legal FV engines won't do that with tall rear tires". Sure enough, a self-protest so to speak. Told other FV racers I was going to bring the car down to Quixote racing and have Dietmar tear the motor completely down and check EVERYTHING. I had some reservations about having Dietmar tear down a competitors' motor, but those in the group trusted him, and I felt if I was sold a bad bag of goods, I didn't care about other folks knowing. If Dietmar came back pronouncing a clean bill of health, the cheater grumblings would have been squelched. There were a couple little things wrong that made a big enough difference, especially when others are using what they are supposed to use in a very low HP class. I gave my flag to Hampson who had finished behind me. Had Dietmar build me a new engine. Was made whole by the previous engine builder. Got better in the car and ended up running faster times than that day vs. Shaun, so I'm not sure how much of a difference those things made...but that's not the point. There should be some honor in competing.

Yes, Roger isn't calling any of us. Some people are going to cheat. We can go out there just to have fun or compete against ourselves. The fact of the matter is that most people running up front are working too damn hard and spending too much money to have somebody else come along and take their $3 flag or trophy because they are playing to a different set of rules. If they run a prep shop or are engine builders their competitiveness has a direct effect on their livelihood.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Agreed. Even if they aren't on the open market, an engine builder could utilize them without their customers' knowledge. Knowing their customer will likely never know. . .and their motor services will look like a great alternative.

If the modification (as I've seen mentioned) was a longer rod, I don't think the engine builders would give those to a customer and it can be checked with just the pan off.

Weight is just about the only thing you need to pull the pistons for.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Beer Budget, I don't think you know what you are talking about. How are you going to measure rod length accurately inside the engine without removing it? Has it ever occurred to you that having different piston skirt designs might make a real power gain? Do you know how much power there is to be gained with modern racing ring vs the standard Cortina ring dimensions we are required to run?

[Daryl DeArman]

Weight is just about the only thing you need to pull the pistons for.

Skirt design.
Pin ID, weight and material.
Type of circlips utilized.
Pin location in the piston.
Number of rings.
Height of ring land relative to piston crown and each other.
Thickness/thinness of ring pack utilized.
Any additional holes to help low tension rings seal during compression and power stroke.
Coatings that rules may not allow.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Beer Budget, I don't think you know what you are talking about. How are you going to measure rod length accurately inside the engine without removing it? Has it ever occurred to you that having different piston skirt designs might make a real power gain? Do you know how much power there is to be gained with modern racing ring vs the standard Cortina ring dimensions we are required to run?

I was referring to the long rod situation and the significant gains some people were experiencing with a 'look alike' piston.
You know what a rods are allowed. It's probably much harder to forge a look alike rod, but I'm not in that business.

Isn't the idea to find something illegal? Or are you after degrees of illegality?

[Roland V. Johnson]

The purpose is not to find anything illegal. It is to make sure that people are racing legal. Yes there are small insignificant things that people miss (especially amateurs) while building engines. I do not believe that anyone is in a witch hunt to find things that really do not make a difference. Intentionally cheating is different. I think the long rod stuff you are talking about is in the 2 liter engine.

[marshall9]

The purpose is not to find anything illegal. It is to make sure that people are racing legal. Yes there are small insignificant things that people miss (especially amateurs) while building engines. I do not believe that anyone is in a witch hunt to find things that really do not make a difference. Intentionally cheating is different. I think the long rod stuff you are talking about is in the 2 liter engine.

The longer rods are now allowed in FC Pintos, it is part of parity creep towards Zetec, parts availability, and engine life increases that are raising car counts.
I cannot speak for S2000 on this topic, as I do not campaign or work on any as of yet.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The purpose is not to find anything illegal. It is to make sure that people are racing legal. Yes there are small insignificant things that people miss (especially amateurs) while building engines. I do not believe that anyone is in a witch hunt to find things that really do not make a difference. Intentionally cheating is different. I think the long rod stuff you are talking about is in the 2 liter engine.

Sure, a tear down prompted by a protest is to make sure people are racing legal, BUT, the tear down process is DONE at the first confirmation of something illegal/non-compliant. That could be flywheel weight, carb, etc. So, if they are using illegal rings you may never know if you can DQ the car by other means.

It is NOT a right to tear down beyond that first violation. It's binary. More violations does not make it more illegal.

I was led to believe the faux Ivey pistons have the pin shifted up and use a longer rod.

[Daryl DeArman]

Sure, a tear down prompted by a protest is to make sure people are racing legal, BUT, the tear down process is DONE at the first confirmation of something illegal/non-compliant. That could be flywheel weight, carb, etc. So, if they are using illegal rings you may never know if you can DQ the car by other means.

It is NOT a right to tear down beyond that first violation. It's binary. More violations does not make it more illegal.

I was led to believe the faux Ivey pistons have the pin shifted up and use a longer rod.

Serious question for those who have been through the process with SCCA. If I filed a protest against that Marshall character out in Phoenix for items (A), (B) and (C). They find (A) non-compliant, do they not bother checking for (B) and (C)? If that's the case, there is an appeals process. . . what if Marshall appeals and wins because some error in measurement, process or erroneously supplied stock part for comparison?

[Peter Olivola]

Serious question for those who have been through the process with SCCA. If I filed a protest against that Marshall character out in Phoenix for items (A), (B) and (C). They find (A) non-compliant, do they not bother checking for (B) and (C)? If that's the case, there is an appeals process. . . what if Marshall appeals and wins because some error in measurement, process or erroneously supplied stock part for comparison?

That will depend on what you, as the protester, elect to do. If there is a bond involved and "B" and "C" require further tear down covered by a portion of the bond you can elect to forego them and get your entire bond returned. If there's no bond involved, i.e., not an invasive process, you still have the option to withdraw the balance or continue. That's a decision for you, not the SOMs.

I would add, however, that anything discovered non-compliant during a tear down/inspection can be subject to penalty regardless whether or not it's part of the protest. These would be handled as a CSA/RFA per 8.3.3.B.

[Daryl DeArman]

That will depend on what you, as the protester, elect to do. If there is a bond involved and "B" and "C" require further tear down covered by a portion of the bond you can elect to forego them and get your entire bond returned. If there's no bond involved, i.e., not an invasive process, you still have the option to withdraw the balance or continue. That's a decision for you, not the SOMs.

I would add, however, that anything discovered non-compliant during a tear down/inspection can be subject to penalty regardless whether or not it's part of the protest. These would be handled as a CSA/RFA per 8.3.3.B.

So, I elect to stop at "A", get my entire bond returned (on the spot?). Marshall appeals, and wins. How does Marshall recover his expenses related to the teardown? I know what he's going to say

[Peter Olivola]

So, I elect to stop at "A", get my entire bond returned (on the spot?). Marshall appeals, and wins. How does Marshall recover his expenses related to the teardown? I know what he's going to say

You don't get your entire bond back until the appeal process has been exhausted, only the portion relating to "B" and "C" immediately.
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[Roland V. Johnson]

"Sure, a tear down prompted by a protest is to make sure people are racing legal, BUT, the tear down process is DONE at the first confirmation of something illegal/non-compliant. That could be flywheel weight, carb, etc. So, if they are using illegal rings you may never know if you can DQ the car by other means.

It is NOT a right to tear down beyond that first violation. It's binary. More violations does not make it more illegal.

I was led to believe the faux Ivey pistons have the pin shifted up and use a longer rod."



There are a lot of different sanctioning bodies, and their rules are not always the same. The tear down process is NOT DONE at the confirmation of something illegal. It is done at the request of someone who has the right to ask for it. Usually another competitor or a series official. There is usually a bond involved to pay the competitor to repair his engine if he is found to be legal. Because something is found not to be legal, is no reason the teardown has to stop. If someone is cheating one place, it is likely they really do not care about the rules, and are cheating elsewhere. It is perfectly correct to find that out!...........sorry I just noticed how to reply with quote.....