Cheating

[dogrings]

I have been involved with FF racing since their beginning. I have been involved with Tech inspection and rules enforcement for too many years. Background is as an Mechanical Engineer and machinist since 1956. Always involved with Formula type cars.
As a tech inspector in CASC, SCCA, USAC HSR, VARA , SVRA and others.
In my humble opinion this new era of controversy about FF engines comes up from the lack of availability of "original Spec" replacement parts. The suppliers of FF legal parts have complied with the engine assemblers desire to maintain a source of like parts. Crankshafts, cylinder heads and other bits have been "QUALIFIED" by a number of engine assemblers and SCCA as having no performance advantage and are available to all who desire them. Some are obvious as a cylinder head is aluminium, not cast iron. The part which has precipitated this appears to be a piston. For some time Jay Ivey has had piston made by a long time large piston manufacturer in LA. They were to mark his Logo and put a specific part number on it. It appears as though someone went to this Piston manufacturer who will make anything as their business manifesto. It appears as the improved performance of these parts has found its way into some engine assemblers hands. I have been told some of these improved performance pistons have become marked with the P/N and Logo which would make any physical inspection indicate they were correct parts. It appears as though total disassembly would be required to determine the status of legality of these parts. The Modifications cannot be seen with the head off. Weight and C/Ratio are involved.
I am of the opinion and have been for many years that most listers are correct is saying peer pressure will resolve cheating.
As a result I have a tool that will check the bore and stroke of a FF engine through the spark plug hole. I have acquired a K-Tech whislter which can measure Comp/Ratio through same Hole and developed an installation of the original Cam Doctor to a FF engine in the car which will provide a 720 npoint profile of both intake and exhaust valve cam profile. These are the tools refered to by Rick Kirchner in opinion #29 above.
This inspection technique is applied on an as needed basis as determined by me in VARA HSR for 20/25 years.
The equipment available now will not find some details internal to engine, but just its availability deters some.
Wayne Mitchell CMW Enterprises, March FF constructor, 3 seasons 1000cc Formula 3 and on. 760 942-9170

[Wren]

So who are the plaintiffs and defendants in this lawsuit? Where was it filed?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[marshall9]

So, do we think we are going to pick up chicks with our red jackets and racing tales? Does anyone but us give a rip about our $5:00 plastic trophies? Cheaters cheat because of their weak egos and insecurity, I guess, but usually everyone knows they are doing it. All they "achieve" is to trash their reputation, and still, unless they are hanging out with impressionable high-school girls, nobody outside the sport gives a rip that you "won" [stole] a race. We drive toy cars, in a rough approximation of a circle, on an artificial road, ending up where we started. Doing that a few seconds faster than someone else, isn't enough for me to sell my self-esteem for. If it is for you, you're a pretty sad case. Enjoy your jacket. You can wear it to your high-school reunion and try to pick up an intoxicated, aging prom queen. Maybe, if you have enough money, she will act impressed for you.

BTW: As long as you have to lay down a month's pay to protest the cheaters, all cheating will cost them is their honor. Still, that's too expensive for me.

Well stated, Jim.
Respects

[marshall9]

I have been involved with FF racing since their beginning. I have been involved with Tech inspection and rules enforcement for too many years. Background is as an Mechanical Engineer and machinist since 1956. Always involved with Formula type cars.
As a tech inspector in CASC, SCCA, USAC HSR, VARA , SVRA and others.
In my humble opinion this new era of controversy about FF engines comes up from the lack of availability of "original Spec" replacement parts. The suppliers of FF legal parts have complied with the engine assemblers desire to maintain a source of like parts. Crankshafts, cylinder heads and other bits have been "QUALIFIED" by a number of engine assemblers and SCCA as having no performance advantage and are available to all who desire them. Some are obvious as a cylinder head is aluminium, not cast iron. The part which has precipitated this appears to be a piston. For some time Jay Ivey has had piston made by a long time large piston manufacturer in LA. They were to mark his Logo and put a specific part number on it. It appears as though someone went to this Piston manufacturer who will make anything as their business manifesto. It appears as the improved performance of these parts has found its way into some engine assemblers hands. I have been told some of these improved performance pistons have become marked with the P/N and Logo which would make any physical inspection indicate they were correct parts. It appears as though total disassembly would be required to determine the status of legality of these parts. The Modifications cannot be seen with the head off. Weight and C/Ratio are involved.
I am of the opinion and have been for many years that most listers are correct is saying peer pressure will resolve cheating.
As a result I have a tool that will check the bore and stroke of a FF engine through the spark plug hole. I have acquired a K-Tech whislter which can measure Comp/Ratio through same Hole and developed an installation of the original Cam Doctor to a FF engine in the car which will provide a 720 npoint profile of both intake and exhaust valve cam profile. These are the tools refered to by Rick Kirchner in opinion #29 above.
This inspection technique is applied on an as needed basis as determined by me in VARA HSR for 20/25 years.
The equipment available now will not find some details internal to engine, but just its availability deters some.
Wayne Mitchell CMW Enterprises, March FF constructor, 3 seasons 1000cc Formula 3 and on. 760 942-9170

Thank you in advance for helping.

[jhaley]

I have been involved with FF racing since their beginning. I have been involved with Tech inspection and rules enforcement for too many years. Background is as an Mechanical Engineer and machinist since 1956. Always involved with Formula type cars.
As a tech inspector in CASC, SCCA, USAC HSR, VARA , SVRA and others.
In my humble opinion this new era of controversy about FF engines comes up from the lack of availability of "original Spec" replacement parts. The suppliers of FF legal parts have complied with the engine assemblers desire to maintain a source of like parts. Crankshafts, cylinder heads and other bits have been "QUALIFIED" by a number of engine assemblers and SCCA as having no performance advantage and are available to all who desire them. Some are obvious as a cylinder head is aluminium, not cast iron. The part which has precipitated this appears to be a piston. For some time Jay Ivey has had piston made by a long time large piston manufacturer in LA. They were to mark his Logo and put a specific part number on it. It appears as though someone went to this Piston manufacturer who will make anything as their business manifesto. It appears as the improved performance of these parts has found its way into some engine assemblers hands. I have been told some of these improved performance pistons have become marked with the P/N and Logo which would make any physical inspection indicate they were correct parts. It appears as though total disassembly would be required to determine the status of legality of these parts. The Modifications cannot be seen with the head off. Weight and C/Ratio are involved.
I am of the opinion and have been for many years that most listers are correct is saying peer pressure will resolve cheating.
As a result I have a tool that will check the bore and stroke of a FF engine through the spark plug hole. I have acquired a K-Tech whislter which can measure Comp/Ratio through same Hole and developed an installation of the original Cam Doctor to a FF engine in the car which will provide a 720 npoint profile of both intake and exhaust valve cam profile. These are the tools refered to by Rick Kirchner in opinion #29 above.
This inspection technique is applied on an as needed basis as determined by me in VARA HSR for 20/25 years.
The equipment available now will not find some details internal to engine, but just its availability deters some.
Wayne Mitchell CMW Enterprises, March FF constructor, 3 seasons 1000cc Formula 3 and on. 760 942-9170

Thanks for doing this Wayne. I only wish you would have had these tools at the May VARA race and the SVRA race at Fontana. The problem I have always had with doing a protest is the cost of the bond that has to be posted. It is often thousands of dollars and therefore out of reach for all but the wealthiest racers. So it rarely happens and the cheaters know that. Nothing has changed since I raced SCCA 20+ years ago. I thought Vintage racing would be more honest and gentlemanly. Too bad the egos have to get in the way of that. Frankly, I was too slow to worry about who was cheating and preferred to spend my money running my car rather than risk losing it protesting another racer. Hopefully these tools will bring down that cost. For me cheating is just outside the Spirit of Vintage FF racing. I ran a legal Ivey motor as did the majority of the racers in "FF The Series". To say that 95% of our group was cheating is absurd.

[jrh3]

Thanks for doing this Wayne. I only wish you would have had these tools at the May VARA race and the SVRA race at Fontana. The problem I have always had with doing a protest is the cost of the bond that has to be posted. It is often thousands of dollars and therefore out of reach for all but the wealthiest racers. So it rarely happens and the cheaters know that. Nothing has changed since I raced SCCA 20+ years ago. I thought Vintage racing would be more honest and gentlemanly. Too bad the egos have to get in the way of that. Frankly, I was too slow to worry about who was cheating and preferred to spend my money running my car rather than risk losing it protesting another racer. Hopefully these tools will bring down that cost. For me cheating is just outside the Spirit of Vintage FF racing. I ran a legal Ivey motor as did the majority of the racers in "FF The Series". To say that 95% of our group was cheating is absurd.

Unfortunately , the same old problem of excess and deficiency.
Too much ego and spare cash. Too little integrity.
The reality is Penske will not be calling any of us. This is supposed to be clean but addictive fun. What value is a trophy you cheat for?

Have a drivers meeting. Hand the offender a FS sticker and move him out of the class.

[Daryl DeArman]

This is supposed to be clean but addictive fun. What value is a trophy you cheat for?

Have a drivers meeting. Hand the offender a FS sticker and move him out of the class.

That would be great solution, if you could prove they (plural) were cheating.

The alternate solution is to hand out new stickers to all the other drivers. Something like this:


https://racer.com/2018/08/08/new-for...ched-in-socal/

[Roland V. Johnson]

I believe the current issue in southern Cal has been resolved. Some drivers had engines which appeared to have excess power. They were protested and refused to have the engines inspected, citing that no clear process was written into the rules. Another FF racing club has been formed with a clearer set of rules and processes. Vintage racers mostly think of themselves and their competitors as honorable people who live by the Honor System. Obviously some people have the Honor and some milk the system. Saying that 95% of us are cheating is total BS! I resent that, as do all the legal FF drivers and engine builders! By the way I have had a lot of SCCA FF's and engines through my shop. Almost all the homebuilt engines I have inspected were not legal. Some intentional, but mostly due to a lack of knowledge of the rule book and interpretations of the rules over the years.

Roland Johnson ex SCCA Tech Inspector 20+ years, ex SCCA Club Ford racer, 1990 SCCA Open Wheel Assistant Chief of Tech (yes we inspected the engines down to the last bolt), Vintage Racer on and off since 1990, Owner of a Race Prep Shop specializing in Vintage Cars.

[dogrings]

There has never been an official protest in FF in VARA or HSR IN ANY CLASS!! nor has there ever been a protest fee and in addition the reason is because I do not like tearing engines down in dusty fields on Sunday nights. I set up the competition rules for racing in VARA and HSR West, ( Before SVRA ) and it would have been me doing the job. When a competitor refuses post race weigh in he is not classified as a finisher. Not disqualified 1111 Same when you put car in transporter and refuse to present it for teardown/inspection Not Classified. ---------------------- Fun is the name of the Game----------------

[billtebbutt]

What are your thoughts?
Personally, I have no ego to feed, nor could I delight in cheating to win a race. I guess some have no mirrors in their homes. Is it self gratifying to tell your spouse, kids, grand children, friends how great a driver you are/were winning a race when you know you cheated? You only cheat yourself. You know you are a fraud and chances are, so do your fellow racers.
I just had a long chat with my major FF engine builder in the Pacific NW (Hard guess as to whom) about this very thing. It seems there are attorneys now litigating piston legality in the SCCA. A formula car is a formula car, but the rules clearly say "If it doesn't allow it, don't."
I am really dissapointed that it has come to this.
Most of you could turn better times in a properly prepared Vee, than I can in a new Spectrum FF. So effing what? I love this sport and will continue to support it and know each weekend, that I drove a fast, clean, legal race, regardless of my finishing position.
Marshall

Well, if you cheat, you've already lost....

[Daryl DeArman]

When a competitor refuses post race weigh in he is not classified as a finisher. Not disqualified 1111 Same when you put car in transporter and refuse to present it for teardown/inspection Not Classified.

That would depend on who you were. I was the VARA points-keeper for a time after Hibbard's reign and pre-Wilkens' era.

I was privy to the BoD discussions regarding penalties for driving and non-compliance. I saw the ugliness and the politics going on behind the scenes. I saw who had influence and who was/wasn't reprimanded/penalized for being caught with illegal engine modifications. You may have been involved in the FF/CF stuff, but other VARA classes had their own people familiar with the engine rules of those classes performing any post-race inspections. I was also at every BoD meeting where many discussions came up regarding known issues with certain cars in certain classes. JB was often there, don't recall seeing you at any of those cluster-f's. You likely wanted no part of that circus. JB did his best and always acted honorably (not to imply you wouldn't have, just stating I didn't see you at any of those meetings and that JB was often there, doing his best to represent tech.)


There was a reason I resigned my position as points-keeper. I didn't have the authority to take points away from entrants, only to award points based on finishing position. Taking points away was only done by written instruction from the BoD after hearing Tom's recommendations for driving infractions, or class reps' recommendations based on vehicle compliance. I couldn't, with a clear conscious, award points to entrants who got caught cheating because the BoD instructed me to because of those entrants' influence on the club. If I recall correctly, Tom also resigned that same season. I can't tell you his reasons' why, but I would guess that recommendations to penalize certain habitually bad drivers being shot down by the BoD because of those drivers' influence was enough.

As a former, short-time VARA FF competitor, I appreciated your efforts to attempt to clean up FF. The annual tech day at Sabrina was a lot of work, I'm certain. However, it really doesn't do anything to dissuade the personality type inclined to cheat, from cheating. You are checking a few things on an engine before the season starts. Absolutely zero custody of those bits and pieces during the season. No idea if the folks are even showing up to race with the same car, much less engine and whirly bits in/on the engine. It kept the honest, honest. But we weren't going to cheat anyway.

[Jnovak]

Why aren't there automatic teardowns in Vintage like there is at the Runoffs?

[EricP]

Why aren't there automatic teardowns in Vintage like there is at the Runoffs?

Maybe because many vintage events are more like a big regional then a runoffs. I don’t cheat but I’d probably avoid average vintage events that I’d have to tear down. Not worth the time and expense. For the “vintage national championship”, that would be different. IMHO

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Why aren't there automatic teardowns in Vintage like there is at the Runoffs?

It's automatic at the Runoffs? For 1-3?

[DanW]

It's automatic at the Runoffs? For 1-3?

Yes. In addition, each teardown gets witnessed by a tech person who must stand and observe each part removed, making sure no parts are taken away or “cold” legal parts are brought in by crew.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Yes. In addition, each teardown gets witnessed by a tech person who must stand and observe each part removed, making sure no parts are taken away or “cold” legal parts are brought in by crew.

Is there a rule supplement? or in the GCR?

Do they ever do pre-race tech?

[Robert J. Alder]

Why aren't there automatic teardowns in Vintage like there is at the Runoffs?

Uh, maybe because there's no trophy, no money, no championship stuff, no worries? Well, yes SVRA is doing some trophy stuff and that just might be where folks are more tempted to cheat? Just sayin'.

We (vintage FF @ RMVR), just want to have fun, clean racing. Someone who is running a cheater motor is all too obvious and they just don't get no respect in addition no trophy, no money. That must really suck, huh?

We had 45 FFs at our charity event earlier this month (an invitational FF grid, all FFs vintage and modern were welcome for that charity event.). On our regular race weekends 20-25 FFs all vintage or CFs, mostly RMVR cars but also a number of local SCCA Club Ford folks come to our events. We think it's because because of more cars, more fun. more beer, more bench racing with each other.

We must be doing something right. Emphasis on winning can kill the fun. Emphasis on good clean racing increases the fun. Who needs teardowns? Just don't shake the cheater's hand when done. There's a saying in vintage, "The only thing you have to win or loose is the respect of your fellow drivers". Pretty good way to run a race. If someone says he thinks Joe Blow has a cheater motor, the response is often, "Ya, probably. He's a bum and probably not a very good driver either. Steer clear, have a beer and get over it."

[Hardingfv32]

I am not so sure the top three get torn down at the Runoffs. Were you part of the inspection team at Laguna?

No pre race tech but there is random item checks after each qualify session. Usually something that does not require a complete engine tear down.

It would be interesting to hear about the planning tech puts into the Runoffs. I think there is a plan for each class.

Brian

[Phil Creighton]

I understand that the piston issue is more serious than the usual "he's cheating" as it would appear that there non-compliant pistons with the correct part number out there. However, the part number being correct does not mean it complies to the spec that was approved
I don't think its a big issue in terms of numbers though
Phil

[Jnovak]

I note that many comments are about FF engines.

Here is a comment.

It is not necessary to take an FF engine apart to define if it is legal.

All that is needed are to remove the valve cover and the spark plugs so that you can measure the valve lift first.

Then measure the displacement and the compression ratio with a device called a Whistler made by a company called Katech.

These items can be completed in about an hour without a major teardown required. The SCCA uses it and has a procedure defined for this purpose .it does require the removal of the rocker shaft assembly to measure the displacement.

I suspect that if someone is cheating on an FF engine the above will find it in about an hours work.

[Jnovak]

I am not so sure the top three get torn down at the Runoffs. Were you part of the inspection team at Laguna?

No pre race tech but there is random item checks after each qualify session. Usually something that does not require a complete engine tear down.

It would be interesting to hear about the planning tech puts into the Runoffs. I think there is a plan for each class.

Brian

my son has won the Runoffs 3 times and has been torn down to the nubbins each time (at the Runoffs) He has also been torn down 2 additional times when finishing on the podium at the Runoffs.

[EricP]

Are Whisters common? I ASSUME my engine is legal but I bought it as-is and have not opened it. I’d love to verify it is legal.

[s800racer]

This is not the first "all those vintage guys cheat" thread. But, like all the others, it's as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

First of all, if you aren't running vintage and have no skin in the game - shut your pie hole. You probably don't know what you're talking about and you're just spouting off.

Second, If you are running vintage and have a beef about it - name names or kindly refer to the advice above.

Third, If you can't keep your pie hole shut about it, bring your big mouth and your "A" game to any well attended vintage event and put up or shut up. Spoiler alert: There are some talented drivers in vintage running 100% legal cars that will hand your ass to you. But no worries, they'll do it with a smile because it's vintage and they'd rather lose a race and enjoy a beer with friends than win a race and have no friends to celebrate with - at least, that's how I roll.

[scott fairchild]

As someone who has been beaten by Doug and beaten Doug, I've always known most front runners have nothing to hide. HP isn't getting the lap times (we usually catch most mid-pack FB cars (200 hp and much wider and stickier tires)). Hell, we've even swapped seats because we're good friends, like cool cars, and are honorable competitors.

No one called out the west coast classic fords for cheating when they showed up at east coast events on alloy wheels.

Also, the best teams (those who are often adored, Penske, Hendrick, Yunick, and many other trans am teams) were regular cheaters and not just rule benders, which I don't consider cheating. So, saying that it doesn't have any place in the sport, or goes against the spirit of the rules is bull.

As for me, my car is legal and my driving is clean. I intend to keep it that way.

Lastly, is it cheating if it can be shown to have been done to that particular chassis when originally raced?

[John Robinson II]

I note that many comments are about FF engines.

Here is a comment.

It is not necessary to take an FF engine apart to define if it is legal.

All that is needed are to remove the valve cover and the spark plugs so that you can measure the valve lift first.

Then measure the displacement and the compression ratio with a device called a Whistler made by a company called Katech.

These items can be completed in about an hour without a major teardown required. The SCCA uses it and has a procedure defined for this purpose .it does require the removal of the rocker shaft assembly to measure the displacement.

I suspect that if someone is cheating on an FF engine the above will find it in about an hours work.

this is not so true. There is a cam readily available with same lift but more duration. But it still does not take long to determine as a way to place degree wheel on input shaft has been figured out. Either way does not require splitting car and removing cam.

in '05 had to split car and give them cam to check on cam dr. In '06 they only pulled tommy's head. In '07 they wanted my head, intake and carb, all separated. We then spent about 5 hours arguing if insulator gasket was legal. All cars in impound were the same, but gcr only had dimensional diagram for original not uprated. Keep in mind this was when it was formula ford (per Honda).

John

[Daryl DeArman]

I understand that the piston issue is more serious than the usual "he's cheating" as it would appear that there non-compliant pistons with the correct part number out there. However, the part number being correct does not mean it complies to the spec that was approved
I don't think its a big issue in terms of numbers though
Phil

Perhaps not. However, no FF engine builder is going to acquire these pistons and install them not knowing they weren't what they were supposed to be. The P/N designation was just to fool a casual head-off visual inspection.

[Daryl DeArman]

I note that many comments are about FF engines.

Here is a comment.

It is not necessary to take an FF engine apart to define if it is legal.

All that is needed are to remove the valve cover and the spark plugs so that you can measure the valve lift first.

Then measure the displacement and the compression ratio with a device called a Whistler made by a company called Katech..

Certainly it is necessary to completely tear down an FF engine to declare it legal. It may not be necessary to tear it completely down to determine if it's illegal. There's a distinct difference.

These pistons out there were made specifically to pass a visual inspection with the head off or with a borescope. The club tech folks have and utilize a Whistler (see dogrings post above) that's Wayne, chief of Tech for VARA and HSR-West for years.

The issue (beyond the obvious lack of morality) is that when smart engine builders know what tools tech is going to utilize, or just how far they are going to tear into things, it's possible for them to build engines to pass the tests, but not be legal.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I am not so sure the top three get torn down at the Runoffs. Were you part of the inspection team at Laguna?

No pre race tech but there is random item checks after each qualify session. Usually something that does not require a complete engine tear down.

It would be interesting to hear about the planning tech puts into the Runoffs. I think there is a plan for each class.

Brian

my son has won the Runoffs 3 times and has been torn down to the nubbins each time (at the Runoffs) He has also been torn down 2 additional times when finishing on the podium at the Runoffs.

I thought tear downs were the result of protests - and the posting of a bond by the protester. IIR, in the SM Laguna incident, $10k+ was posted - and returned.

As for pre race tech there have been rumors abound about some ECUs that will run temp mappings until powered off or can store an alternate mapping and run under certain conditions. Stuff that could only be dealt with on grid. But again, where there's a will there's a way.

I think there are some that are willing to protest more easily than others - especially classes like SM.

[swiftdrivr]

I race for fun. I race against guys ostensibly running the same type equipment as I run. I don't judge myself against the guys with pro teams, engineers, data guys and driver's coaches. They race FF on a different level than me. The rest of the guys I view as peers, and I judge how well I'm driving against their performance with what I assume is similar equipment. Cheaters distort my 'yardstick', if that makes any sense. Some of them I know are cheating, and I 'discard their scores.'. Some of them I know are not. I doubt JR would have made it through tech after winning the runoffs twice if he was a cheater, so he's a good yardstick for what a well prepared FF should be capable of on any given day. I won't ever beat him, but I'm always happy to see him show up. He gives me my yardstick for the weekend, None of us could match Senna or Prost or Villeneuve in similar equipment, so it's not about being 'the fastest'. We aren't. Those guys aren't running with us. it really comes down to how well we do against our peers, and cheaters never know that information. They gave up and cheated, so apparently they feel they couldn't measure up any other way. Their excuses don't matter. [They may tell themselves otherwise, but they know 'everyone else' isn't cheating.] I really can't see what they get out of it. No money, no real bragging rights, mostly cheap trophies that nobody really cares much about, no 'yardstick' that means anything if you are illegal, no future paid rides, nothing, except loss of respect from your peers, and loss of self-esteem. I wish we all had to undergo the whistler, and enough tech to make cheating hard, but in the end, not a big deal. It's about having fun, not being fastest. Alonso isn't worried about us.

If you think about it, cheaters can never win. They may cross the finish line before the guys running the race, but illegal cars are not peers of the honest racers. They are running against an undefined and invisible "peer group" of other cheaters, who may or may not be present. Big deal.

[jim morgan]

Fortunately there are no issues of cheating in the SE.

Must all be restricted to those dastardly vintage types.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Now let's look at this issue from a professional engine builder's point of view. How do you think he feels when one of his best engines that he knows is capable of running up front (not talking Hondas) at any SCCA event gets blown off down the straights? Repeatedly! What do you think that could do to his business? Formula Ford was built on the fact that all the top engines were close to equal. That is what makes the class work, It is basically a driver's class. If we as a community want to keep the people around who have supported us over the years by building reliable engines with good equatable power we need to work at keeping things legal. We also should thank the people who have made sure that we have legal parts that match up closely with the original parts power capability, but are much more reliable. Yes, they cost more, but look how many more competitive hours we are getting out of the engines. ..........OK off my soap box.....

[Hartley]

Fortunately there are no issues of cheating in the SE.

Must all be restricted to those dastardly vintage types.

Hey Jim who are you trying to get a rise out of?

Its nice to see some of the cheating whispers getting aired out and discussed in a proper forum. Jim Lee has said it all. Small people do small things and get the appropriate recognition. So if it is so easy to catch cheaters with a whistler why is there not one at every SCCA event? Just the hint of a deterrant would go along way towards correcting the problem. How about this idea: just ignore the person in question totally and allow peer pressure to take hold.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Just the hint of a deterrant would go along way towards correcting the problem. How about this idea: just ignore the person in question totally and allow peer pressure to take hold.

Agree with the point 1.

The problem with ignoring someone is that you may be ignoring an innocent party. Someone just hints it.
Its like starting another series rather than fîxing the problems. They'll just follow.

The penalties are too soft.

[DanW]

I am not so sure the top three get torn down at the Runoffs. Were you part of the inspection team at Laguna?

No pre race tech but there is random item checks after each qualify session. Usually something that does not require a complete engine tear down.

It would be interesting to hear about the planning tech puts into the Runoffs. I think there is a plan for each class.

Brian

Yes, I have served as a compliance monitor during the 2014 Runoffs tech shed teardowns. I was assigned to several classes including FF.

The top 5 are impounded in each class plus any competitors who are under a compliance protest.

The first three finishers' engines are disassembled and inspected for compliance. The parts are taken away from the impound area and measured for compliance by the inspectors. If one or more competitors are found out of compliance, the fourth and fifth place competitors' engines are torn down. I believe the process is described in the Runoffs supps.

The strange one was Spec Miata at Laguna in 2014, with 9 cars protested for compliance out of the top ten finishers. That was quite a rodeo.

Regards,
Dan

[Rick Kirchner]

Its like starting another series rather than fîxing the problems. They'll just follow.

The penalties are too soft.

There are two distinct points here. Most of vintage has always been different from the SCCA with respect to entries. If the officers of the club don't want you around, they don't accept your entry, case closed. They don't have to provide a reason - it's their club at that point. You don't earn a license, buy a membership, and have some "right" to compete subject to a bunch of courts and 700 pages of rules. You want to race? Be nice, race clean, be contrite if you screw up, and don't piss off the board members.

With respect to the series, it's always been an independent entity that runs with whatever club gives it a single-class run group. The original organizers had some kerfluffle with VARA and ran mainly with HSR-west. HSRW was bought by SVRA and about half the west coast events went away, and things got patched up with VARA, so now they run both. I don't know who "owned" the series, but it seems to be like "owning" a rock and roll band. It might just be a name and a rolodex of contacts, but if you want to do something different, you have to start your own band.

So the new series indicated it's by invitation only, so they get to decide who races and who doesn't. So where it appears that there weren't a lot of penalties handed out, functionally I'd bet the guys that caused the problem won't be racing with either VARA or the new series until there's some appropriate level of mea culpa, and it might take a looooong time to achieve that.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

If the officers of the club don't want you around, they don't accept your entry, case closed.

....

With respect to the series, it's always been an independent entity that runs with whatever club gives it a single-class run group.

So the new series indicated it's by invitation only, so they get to decide who races and who doesn't. So where it appears that there weren't a lot of penalties handed out, functionally I'd bet the guys that caused the problem won't be racing with either VARA or the new series until there's some appropriate level of mea culpa, and it might take a looooong time to achieve that.

So, they created a new series to deal with some guys that caused problems. Why didn't the club just refuse their entry ?
Or does that mean the troublemakers were on the board? Friends of the board?

You prefer the dictatorship approach? I'm sure you wouldn't if they refused your entry.

I guess I like a rule book and some rights and recourse.

[BorkRacing]

So, they created a new series to deal with some guys that caused problems. Why didn't the club just refuse their entry ?
Or does that mean the troublemakers were on the board? Friends of the board?

You prefer the dictatorship approach? I'm sure you wouldn't if they refused your entry.

I guess I like a rule book and some rights and recourse.

Exclusive clubs are a slippery slope, especially in nanny states like NY or California. Most don't realize that as races move from one state to another that states laws apply, especially in discrimination, Board actions and decisions, and safety issues. While a race group may not be considered a place of public accommodation, a race track certainly is and certain clubs may find themselves excluded because track owners will fear lawsuits. Remember, it's not necessarily that someone may win a suit, but the cost of defending one that becomes costly.

[Rick Kirchner]

But for discrimination to be the basis don't you have to be part of a protected class?
Not sure old white guys are a protected class.

[Peter Olivola]

There are two distinct points here. Most of vintage has always been different from the SCCA with respect to entries. If the officers of the club don't want you around, they don't accept your entry, case closed. They don't have to provide a reason - it's their club at that point. You don't earn a license, buy a membership, and have some "right" to compete subject to a bunch of courts and 700 pages of rules. You want to race? Be nice, race clean, be contrite if you screw up, and don't piss off the board members.

GCR page 32
4.4.6. Refusing an Entry
Even if an entry meets all the requirements outlined in 4.4.1., above, the organizers have the right to refuse
an entry without giving a reason. If an entry is refused, notification must be sent to the entrant or driver at
the address on the Entry Form as soon as possible, and normally at least 5 days before the event.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Exclusive clubs are a slippery slope, especially in nanny states like NY or California. Most don't realize that as races move from one state to another that states laws apply, especially in discrimination, Board actions and decisions, and safety issues. While a race group may not be considered a place of public accommodation, a race track certainly is and certain clubs may find themselves excluded because track owners will fear lawsuits. Remember, it's not necessarily that someone may win a suit, but the cost of defending one that becomes costly.

There is not much one can do to guarantee they won't be sued. Agree. Defense is costly.

Anyone can rent a race track. But a clubs refusal of an entry is more like uninviting someone to a wedding reception.
They have paid for exclusive use of the facility and can determine the attendees. The public has no right to crash your wedding.
The public can rent the room another time. That's why club owned tracks can be rented by non-members.