Cheating

[marshall9]

What are your thoughts?
Personally, I have no ego to feed, nor could I delight in cheating to win a race. I guess some have no mirrors in their homes. Is it self gratifying to tell your spouse, kids, grand children, friends how great a driver you are/were winning a race when you know you cheated? You only cheat yourself. You know you are a fraud and chances are, so do your fellow racers.
I just had a long chat with my major FF engine builder in the Pacific NW (Hard guess as to whom) about this very thing. It seems there are attorneys now litigating piston legality in the SCCA. A formula car is a formula car, but the rules clearly say "If it doesn't allow it, don't."
I am really dissapointed that it has come to this.
Most of you could turn better times in a properly prepared Vee, than I can in a new Spectrum FF. So effing what? I love this sport and will continue to support it and know each weekend, that I drove a fast, clean, legal race, regardless of my finishing position.
Marshall

[EricP]

For me, it would render meaningless any success (be it a win or just beating the last place finisher).

When I hear justification, it is usually: “Everyone is doing it.” Or, pointing to a fast guy: “No way that car is legal”. Therein those that cheat find justification. Even IF someone else is cheating, it doesn’t work for me...

[SEComposites]

The first person to chime in with ‘it isn’t cheating until you’re caught’ should be banned from Apexspeed

[Keith Carter]

I don't get why people cheat especially at the club racing level, but just like we witnessed in the Runoffs at Laguna, a lot of the time it comes down to "interpretation of rules". Everyone looks for an edge to beat or be more competitive than their fellow competitor, but in some types of racing like short track, it's more like a cat and mouse game racers play with tech. I've heard many stories of cheating in club racing though from way illegal engines (bored and stroked) in CFFs where the owner didn't even know, to blatant purposeful cheating like lead filled water bottles thrown in with the driver at impound. It's a shame it happens, but it does happen.

[jharvey]

Seems like most of the cheating is trying to make up for lack of driver skill. I’ve seen more midpack guys cheat than front runners.

Vintage is is another story. I’d bet 95% of them have cheater engines.

[Jerry Kehoe]

Always stories or suspicions about cheating abound. When Gille was winning in FA years ago many thought it had to be a special motor. Well one was purchased and dynode by Chuck Willis and surprise it was a box stock 205 hp BDA! So much for cheating, some guys are just plain fast and reality is a bitch!

[Robert J. Alder]

Seems like most of the cheating is trying to make up for lack of driver skill. I’ve seen more midpack guys cheat than front runners.

Vintage is is another story. I’d bet 95% of them have cheater engines.

Not sure about other vintage racing organizations, but that is certainly not the case at Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing (RMVR) FF racing. I'm sure the are some cheater motors somewhere in the pack, but not at the front, and certain only a very few engines at that. It just becomes too obvious in this spec engine class. Yes, in the past we've had a couple of instances of a mid-pack guy all of a sudden going up near the front. But again, that becomes quickly obvious and suspect.

Our solution is; no post-race kudos to a suspected cheater (Peer pressure cold shoulder is a marvelous thing!), a solid local engine builder (and FF racer) who simply will not build such motors and is currently supplying a large number of our FF engines, and a large number of "Legal & Proud" folks. Getting that engine certification and running the car as "FF-LP" doesn't guarantee that the owner wont make subsequent illegal changes to the motor. But those subscribers to the "'Legal & Proud" concept simply are not the type who would do that. They are proud to compete with a legal motor.

And besides,the prize money & trophy is the same -- zilch.

If you feel there is some specific organization with 95% illegal motors, who are they? Those of us who might go race with them would like to know.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Seems like most of the cheating is trying to make up for lack of driver skill. I’ve seen more midpack guys cheat than front runners.

Vintage is is another story. I’d bet 95% of them have cheater engines.

This is new news. It is true that there are way more vintage Fords racing than current Formula F, and the grids are getting back to the old days on the East and West Coast when 25 to 50 cars will turn up. It is true that the participants are having a heck of a lot of fun. It is true that there are slow guys, quick guys and ultra quick guys - we call it talent and commitment. It is true the racing is fast, really close but generally respectful. Hopefully this resurgence is also helpful to the Ford engine builders who have stuck with it.

But this is the first news that they are all cheating. Would be most interested to see the evidence. Are they cheating on their own? Is there a cabal of engine builders that have special cheating components "I will recon your engine for $3,000 or turn it into a cheater for $4,500 including the high lift cam and bore to 1750"

Please do tell, we need to warn our tech guys.

By the way, at our events you can win a $45 wreath so one could fully understand the temptation to cheat. At our drivers meetings we always tell the guys that if they feel compelled to cheat, we can recommend a decent psychiatrist to help them.

It is true we generally operate under the honor system - silly us! On the other hand we could always create a 1,000 page rule book and call ourselves SCCA - wait, someone has already done that.

[Hardingfv32]

... a lot of the time it comes down to "interpretation of rules"...

This is a very important point. Being DQ'd does not equate to cheating in most cases. Just like the driver takes risks on the track, so can the crew chief with his interpretation of the rules or how close the tolerances are. A large percentage of the GCR is not as black and white as you think... in my opinion. Just takes a creative mind to find those areas.

This is a team sport, a driver and a car/crew chief. Not all drivers have the wherewithal to match the skill set of the best drivers. If you want to compete then you have to make up the difference with the car.

Brian

[Roland V. Johnson]

I find it offensive that someone who probably has not run a vintage race believes that almost all of the Vintage racers are cheating. Most of the racers out here have their engines built by top line FF engine builders who also build the best SCCA engines. The rules are the same. As someone who has won a few SCCA Club Ford races in the past, I have been more sure the Vintage racers I was running with were legal than at most SCCA races. There have been some issues with questionable engines in Vintage racing and out here the issue is being dealt with. By the way, the top Vintage racers throughout the country that I have been around are running very well prepared cars and engines and have embarrassed more than one SCCA racer that joined in. And yes, if I believed someone was cheating I first went with them and discussed it and then if the issue continued I have been known to be vocal about it!

[problemchild]

This is a very important point. Being DQ'd does not equate to cheating in most cases.

Actually, unless an incidental oversight, it means just that. Cheating!

There are many classes where creativity in car design are encouraged. In many SCCA classes, such as FV, it is not. It says right in the first line of the class rules ....
A formula for single seat, open wheel racing cars based on standardVolkswagen 1200 series Type 1, U.S. model sedan (imported by VW)components, and restrictive in specifications so as to emphasize driverability and preparation rather than design and technology of the car.

If you get caught cheating, and it takes 4 years of rewriting the GCR, to find adequate wording to stop your cheating, and the competitors spend a lot of money upgrading to new rule interpretations, it is not the rulebook that was inadequate ...... it is that you were cheating.

Had there been a problem with the rules of the previous 40 years, they could have been otherwise clarified.

This argument is no different than "its not cheating unless you get caught." If the driver does not have the wherewithal to match the skill set of the best drivers, then he finishes where he deserves to finish.

[scott fairchild]

Soon Spec Car Club of America won't have enough formula car competitors to protest any suspected cheaters. As for me, please feel free to inspect my equipment for rules compliance. And while you're at it, feel free to lay down a decent lap time, after all it's not a cruise in.

[EricP]

Seems like most of the cheating is trying to make up for lack of driver skill. I’ve seen more midpack guys cheat than front runners.

Vintage is is another story. I’d bet 95% of them have cheater engines.

Please be careful with that sentiment. The ones I know, I doubt cheat. And that sentiment may just reinforce the choice in others.

[Steve Bamford]

I find it offensive that someone who probably has not run a vintage race believes that almost all of the Vintage racers are cheating. Most of the racers out here have their engines built by top line FF engine builders who also build the best SCCA engines. The rules are the same. As someone who has won a few SCCA Club Ford races in the past, I have been more sure the Vintage racers I was running with were legal than at most SCCA races. There have been some issues with questionable engines in Vintage racing and out here the issue is being dealt with. By the way, the top Vintage racers throughout the country that I have been around are running very well prepared cars and engines and have embarrassed more than one SCCA racer that joined in. And yes, if I believed someone was cheating I first went with them and discussed it and then if the issue continued I have been known to be vocal about it!

Was this issue dealt with? Titan guy? http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...-at-COTA/page2

goes back many years but I recall you complaining about the engine.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Either the cars in question slowed a lot, or the rest of the field suddenly got a lot faster. The car / drivers in question are still very fast though, as they should be.

[Steve Demeter]

If one suspects someone of cheating protest them. If it happens enough times and cheaters get caught it will put the fear in them and they will stop.

There should be draconian penalties for blatant cheating. But not for someone who had a slip of the porting tool and made the inlet port 0.001 oversize.
I agree with previous posts that doing well in a race when cheating would have to be not rewarding. Not that I have done either.

[Pi_guy]

Is removing and trimming all the excess top weight from a show room stock car and putting it in a lower position such as in a frame rail cheating or preparation?
Special parts from the factory with legal numbers cheating or legitimate part sales.
Is taking a shock dyno to a warehouse and finding the best factory shocks cheating or preparation?
Doing upgrades on vintage for safety reasons that give you a performance advantage?
Tossing rocks in a car in impound nervous energy or cheating?
Refilling cooling system with lead balls in coolant cheating or hi tech cooling setup?

Just some thoughts.....

[BruceRace]

Cheating??....NO THANKS....I was disqualified twice at a regional for under weight. How? you ask...well on Saturday no exhaust, and that caused it. On Sunday, added weight, ran in rain, guess what....my rains / wheels were lighter than the slicks....still underweight!!! Weird, but true. At impound they wanted me to drink about 4 bottles of water to make it up, and re-weigh....My response was "Why, the cheating already occurred".......It's always about the friendship and new friends ........Bruce

[TimH]

You can't fault a professional for seeking "The Unfair Advantage." I just want to finish ahead of my brother.

[jaltaman]

"Tossing rocks in a car in impound..." that's cheating.

"Refilling cooling system with lead balls..." that's also cheating.

The others you listed are clever interpretations of the rules. That's my $.02.

Is removing and trimming all the excess top weight from a show room stock car and putting it in a lower position such as in a frame rail cheating or preparation?
Special parts from the factory with legal numbers cheating or legitimate part sales.
Is taking a shock dyno to a warehouse and finding the best factory shocks cheating or preparation?
Doing upgrades on vintage for safety reasons that give you a performance advantage?
Tossing rocks in a car in impound nervous energy or cheating?
Refilling cooling system with lead balls in coolant cheating or hi tech cooling setup?

Just some thoughts.....

[jharvey]

I used to work at one of the biggest vintage race shops on the west coast. Having done rebuilds in several vintage FF engines, I know from first hand experience that many cheat. Roller rockers, big cams, 0.030” over pistons, underweight components, and anything they could.

Many would make their motors motors look like s reputable builder did them, just to throw someone off. There are also reputable engine builders that will make an engine to customer specs, regardless of legality.

To think vintage racers don’t cheat is naive. No one protests each other, so how would you know?

[DaveW]

Back in the late '70's, there was a guy (don't remember his name) in a Lola (342, IIRC) FF at the June Sprints that was at least 10 mph faster on the straights than anyone else. Fortunately, he was so slow in the corners that he was not a threat at the pointy end of the field. He was the subject of lots of conversation in the paddock - anyone there would remember this incident. We had more than a few laughs over this. IIRC, someone should have protested him, but we were all too busy to do it, and he wasn't a threat, so we didn't.

I don't remember when, but he was eventually protested (at a later race, IIRC) and his engine was illegal in many respects - cam, compression ratio, etc. I never saw him again at any race I attended.

The funny part was that even though he was obviously massively cheating, he couldn't run at the front, and probably was embarrassed out of the sport due to his cheating.

So it does happen, but not usually in such a naive, blatant fashion...

[problemchild]

I have no opinion on whether vintage racers cheat or not. But I know that 95% of the people who have ever mentioned the issue to me, were people in the vintage community. There is a wide variation in driving and preparation levels, and it just seems to be socially acceptable for slow guys to say "They are all cheating anyway".. Much like it's OK to complain about your own family members, but when someone else outside the family says the same things, it is a declaration of war.

[EricP]

The statement that 95% of vintage guys cheat, was made. I’m sure some do, but saying 9 of 10 guys cheat, is pretty strong. So in a group of 10, everyone but me is cheating? I guess I don’t want to believe that.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

I used to work at one of the biggest vintage race shops on the west coast. Having done rebuilds in several vintage FF engines, I know from first hand experience that many cheat. Roller rockers, big cams, 0.030” over pistons, underweight components, and anything they could.

Many would make their motors motors look like s reputable builder did them, just to throw someone off. There are also reputable engine builders that will make an engine to customer specs, regardless of legality.

To think vintage racers don’t cheat is naive. No one protests each other, so how would you know?

Ah, the first level of evidence. Josh, so we understand your post, are you saying you are a builder of cheater engines?

BB2

[jharvey]

Ah, the first level of evidence. Josh, so we understand your post, are you saying you are a builder of cheater engines?

BB2

An interesting, albeit ignorant leap.

You don’t need to be an engine builder to see stampings on pistons, or measure 0.400” lift, or to take off a valve cover. I refuse to use cheater parts or specs in and work on a car, engine or not.

Go ahead and have the top 10 fastest vintage guys pull valve covers after a race and measure lift, and also poke a borescope in and have a look at the backs of the valves. You will be surprised.

[Robert J. Alder]

What's at dispute here is the statement that "Vintage is is another story. I’d bet 95% of them have cheater engines." Are there some cheaters? Sure. Do 95% cheat on motors? No. Sure as hell not in FFs in RMVR. And it's very doubtful that statement is true anywhere.

Many years ago (Perhaps decades ago & I'm showing my age here.) VARA had an issue with FF motors. They even got to a point where the club actually approved so called "VARA" legal modifications. It was insane. Mercifully they (the drivers) came to their senses and over one winter as a driver motivated group effort cleaned up the whole mess and went back to standard motor preparation specs.

[bob darcey]

Both the RMVR and VARA programs started back around 1996. Some history and the RMVR process is detailed at http://www.channelbeemer.net/lffr_web/LnP.htm

[Rick Kirchner]

I haven't been to one in several years, but VARA used to do have an annual tech day down in the LA basin somewhere. the FFs were actually done at a different facility and Wayne pulled every valve cover, put a measuring device on the cam and rotated it, and used a device to determine displacement. I believe they also did a compression check (but that's hard to catch anyone but the most blatant cheaters).

No, it won't pick up long rod engines or other illegal components with numbers you can't see. But it get's the majority of the issues. I believe those methods continued into "the Series" and worked pretty well until the latest kerfuffle.

So Mr Harvey, if you want to throw shade, do so at your own club.

[mike finch]

I was accused of cheating in 1979 while winning the New Zealand Formula Ford Championship. It was devastating, as I couldn't even imagine trying to win by cheating....I was cleared as absolutely legal, but it was a wake up call that obviously others projected their mindset of winning at all costs onto us. Moving forward 40 years and we are not interested in Historic racing because there are so many stories of people cheating (F5000 and F1 cars with 100hp more than the boys drove with in 1975). Point is, it appears there are many people involved in racing today who have NO moral issue with cheating....racing appears to mirror life, and we only have to look at politics to see
how lying and cheating is acceptable as long as you achieve the intended goal. It's a sick new way of living especially now racing is littered with new so called "racing drivers" who bring with them the same amoral behavior they exhibit running their business's.

What are your thoughts?
Personally, I have no ego to feed, nor could I delight in cheating to win a race. I guess some have no mirrors in their homes. Is it self gratifying to tell your spouse, kids, grand children, friends how great a driver you are/were winning a race when you know you cheated? You only cheat yourself. You know you are a fraud and chances are, so do your fellow racers.
I just had a long chat with my major FF engine builder in the Pacific NW (Hard guess as to whom) about this very thing. It seems there are attorneys now litigating piston legality in the SCCA. A formula car is a formula car, but the rules clearly say "If it doesn't allow it, don't."
I am really dissapointed that it has come to this.
Most of you could turn better times in a properly prepared Vee, than I can in a new Spectrum FF. So effing what? I love this sport and will continue to support it and know each weekend, that I drove a fast, clean, legal race, regardless of my finishing position.
Marshall

[Allan31]

In an SVRA vintage FF race, I had been slowly working my way up to pass this guy, inch by inch every turn, closer and closer. I finally was able to hang my nose on his gearbox going into the toe of the boot, this is a wide sweeping, righthand 1st gear turn going up a hill. We were both in a "hard climb" drag race for the heel of the boot. With his exhaust pipe pointed directly at my face, I noticed he shifted out of first sooner than I did. As we hauled a$$ up the straight, I counted him shifting five times to my four. I popped out of the draft, pulled along side and completed the pass going into the heel. He got smaller and smaller in my mirrors as I drove away.

Cheating happens. The astronaut Scott Kelly was a navy fighter pilot. they had a saying: "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough". I think that's fine for Navy fighter pilots but we have a very specific set of rules that are in place for a reason and should be adhered to. I feel continuously improved driver skills and perfect race car preparation will beat the cheaters anyway.....

[Bernard Bradpiece]

An interesting, albeit ignorant leap.

You don’t need to be an engine builder to see stampings on pistons, or measure 0.400” lift, or to take off a valve cover. I refuse to use cheater parts or specs in and work on a car, engine or not.

Go ahead and have the top 10 fastest vintage guys pull valve covers after a race and measure lift, and also poke a borescope in and have a look at the backs of the valves. You will be surprised.

Simply trying to understand the unclear sentence construction which could have implied that one of the largest shops on the west coast was building cheater engines - which is why I prefaced my question as one of clarification - not the assumptive leap you assumed. So you are confirming you were returning the engines into compliance - reducing the 95%.

Most of the top 10 where we race are prepared by Ivy, Quicksilver, Wentz and Farley, as are many down the field so I am puzzled as to who these 95% are. I am certain you are not suggesting that these professionals turn out engines with non-complying parts. It is true the engines are strong, most front runners have national quality motors.

There may well be engines out of compliance, but few and not near the front. As you may observe, there are a number of groups represented in this post who are concerned at the allegations. Sweeping exaggerations unaccompanied by evidence are unhelpful to developing a dynamic class that is re-establishing its proper position in US racing.

Best
BB2

[marshall9]

As the OP of this thread, I would like to say that I started it after a comm with my CF engine builder.
Personally, I will not cheat as it is, against my morals and who I am.

There is litigation, LAWSUITS, currently underway regarding piston stamping numbers that are rule compliant, but clearly violate the spirit of the Kent building rules. I was told 140HP Kents were developed and the plaintiffs say they are legal because of the number stamping.
The reason I am concerned is the effect this could have on the class, yes mostly Vintage, as the Honda has obsoleted, for the most part, the Kent in SCCA National competition. I completely understand the reasons for allowing the Honda, and applaud their backing for the class. Looking at the numbers, I have seen a huge decrease since it happened.
Having never driven in HSR WEST "The Series" I guess I have no standing or right to have an opinion in their demise.
A solution has been found, or better stated created.
An engine cert required new series debuts next month. No, I am not ignorant enough to believe that someone cannot get an engine certification form signed by a legitimate Builder and then make modifications prior to an event. I do however think it is a step in the right direction.
As in the original post, with little to no monetary reimbursement, and a small trophy, why would one cheat?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot recall anyone of us grey heads being plucked from a vintage series and put into a professional driver seat.

[Hardingfv32]

...why would one cheat?

That is like asking why would anyone want to kill themselves. Everyone is different. You would have to stand in the other person's shoes to get a clear understanding of another competitors point of view on this subject.

Brian

[EricP]

why would one cheat? .

Ego.

[Steve Demeter]

PI GUY

Yes moving weight in a SS cr is cheating cause the rules don't say you are allowed to do it.

going through the warehouse with a shock dyno is simply a case of too much time and money to do anything else.

[mikey]

3 words

cheaters never prosper

[racerdad2]

"Winners never cheat. Cheaters never win."

[marshall9]

"Winners never cheat. Cheaters never win."

My father used to say that to me.
Never won the runoffs, or more than a few regional races, but still my hero. RIP

[swiftdrivr]

So, do we think we are going to pick up chicks with our red jackets and racing tales? Does anyone but us give a rip about our $5:00 plastic trophies? Cheaters cheat because of their weak egos and insecurity, I guess, but usually everyone knows they are doing it. All they "achieve" is to trash their reputation, and still, unless they are hanging out with impressionable high-school girls, nobody outside the sport gives a rip that you "won" [stole] a race. We drive toy cars, in a rough approximation of a circle, on an artificial road, ending up where we started. Doing that a few seconds faster than someone else, isn't enough for me to sell my self-esteem for. If it is for you, you're a pretty sad case. Enjoy your jacket. You can wear it to your high-school reunion and try to pick up an intoxicated, aging prom queen. Maybe, if you have enough money, she will act impressed for you.

BTW: As long as you have to lay down a month's pay to protest the cheaters, all cheating will cost them is their honor. Still, that's too expensive for me.