What will road racing look like in 10 years?

[reidhazelton]

This weekend, for the first time in a few years, I went to a race track. Road America hosted SVRA's Spring Vintage event. I ran that event for the first time about 6 years ago. Then, it seemed like a normal RA event - full paddock and a decent entry list. This time, it looked vastly different. It was scary. Less than 150 entries by the list count, and it appeared to be true from the paddock. The main paved paddock was 50% capacity, and the grass area by the gas pumps (always a popular place to set up) was 25% at best. Looking around the pits, it used to be mostly 20' trailers and half ton pickups. Now, it's almost all semis and goosenecks.

In CenDIv, what was once the most competitive FF division 10 years ago, had ZERO FFs at the Blackhawk Major. The entry fee for Blackhawk was $510. When I started in 2008 they were less than $295. Both 2-Day events. That's only 10 years, and the cost to go play has doubled. There was maybe 130 entries at Blackhawk.

I have two friends. (Shocker - Reid has friends? I know!) They are both upper 20's in age, no kids, good jobs, and massively passionate about racing and cars. They own cars already - one an FF and another a Prod car, and yet they don't race them. The cars sit. Why? It costs too much. If people like this; young, well employed, passionate, and already own the car can't afford the entry fee, SCCA and road racing is toast in 15 years. They should be the easiest person to convert into a customer, but at $500 for just an entry fee, that's not going to happen. It's been said for a long time "Hey, what's two-hundred bucks at the end of the day". Well, for a guy who does his own work, builds his engines, runs 8-cycle tires, it's a lot. And he/she isn't showing up because of it.

No matter how much 'value' there is, no matter how much fun it is, as the cost goes up, entries will go down simply because there is a smaller amount of people who have the needed level of cash. You can call it a different name (Majors/Nationals), make people tow farther (Majors), add sparkling grape juice podium celebrations (why?!), and stick a GoPro on the pit wall and call it 'live streaming', but it won't do any good. If you are trying to grow your customer base, or expand your market, charging more isn't going to do it and won't attract more entries.

So....what do you do? I have no answers - just guesses. But, what I do know is that if something substantial, and perhaps drastic, does not happen road racing will be SM, SRF, and ChumpCar in 10 years. Road Racing needs some seriously outside the box thinking. We have seen the club go down the same path and it's leading to a dead end.

Some half baked thoughts:

• Eliminate Majors/Regional split. Roll all cars into existing classes and consolidate what classes there are. Yes, everyone will be pissed, but at least you have a place to race.
• Variable pricing? Before an event, put out the cost of the weekend. Let's say it's $50k. Tell people if we receive 50 entries, it's $1k per car. If we receive 100, it's $500.
• There are just too many places to race. NASA, SCCA, VSCDA, SVRA, Chump, Lemons, F4, USF, FRP, local clubs, etc. I think there needs to be some cooperation and perhaps consolidation within those orgs.

Who else has some outside the box ideas? What are you seeing in your area that works?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine on a Monday morning

Some half baked thoughts:

• Eliminate Majors/Regional split. Roll all cars into existing classes and consolidate what classes there are. Yes, everyone will be pissed, but at least you have a place to race.
• Variable pricing? Before an event, put out the cost of the weekend. Let's say it's $50k. Tell people if we receive 50 entries, it's $1k per car. If we receive 100, it's $500.
• There are just too many places to race. NASA, SCCA, VSCDA, SVRA, Chump, Lemons, F4, USF, FRP, local clubs, etc. I think there needs to be some cooperation and perhaps consolidation within those orgs.

1. Agreed
2. I think the cost will scare people away. That scheme would yield ZERO signups. I'm not signing up to pay $1k - no way.
What I have found is a reluctance to be the first (few) to sign up. Everyone waits until a week before. Waiting to see if other people are going and the grid will be good. The incentive should be a discount if you sign up early. I think that'll yield more signups.
3. Competition with TDOs for track time is driving up costs. Here is SoCal they pull in 200 cars @ 250 - so $50k for a weekend. They can pay top dollar for the track. Isn't the SCCA the ONLY club that is non-profit? How are you going to consolidate for-profit entities?

[Steve Bamford]

I wasn’t racing back in the 70’s/80’s that everyone refers back to as being the golden days of open wheel racing.

Perhaps those in the know can asvise if there was as many races weekends as there currently are. It seems there is some where you can race your car every single weekend if you wanted to & easy to cherry pick dates on a calendar. Was it this way back in the “Good Ol Days”.

Im sure I could run my FF at least 26 weekends a year if I wanted without a problem on the east cost alone, I’m sure more events, I am saying this without even looking at the calendar.

Costs are an issue, but so is quality of what you get for what you pay for. To show up & run at the back & get a second place trophy gets tiring very quickly. The sense of accomplishment drops off fast after a few weekends.

Perhaps there were this many many events back then. Someone with more knowledge then me can chime in.

[Peter Olivola]

I wasn’t racing back in the 70’s/80’s that everyone refers back to as being the golden days of open wheel racing.

Perhaps those in the know can asvise if there was as many races weekends as there currently are. It seems there is some where you can race your car every single weekend if you wanted to & easy to cherry pick dates on a calendar. Was it this way back in the “Good Ol Days”.

Im sure I could run my FF at least 26 weekends a year if I wanted without a problem on the east cost alone, I’m sure more events, I am saying this without even looking at the calendar.

Costs are an issue, but so is quality of what you get for what you pay for. To show up & run at the back & get a second place trophy gets tiring very quickly. The sense of accomplishment drops off fast after a few weekends.

Perhaps there were this many many events back then. Someone with more knowledge then me can chime in.

In the eastern half of the US/Canada there were races every weekend. SCCA Nationals. SCCA Regionals. IMSA ran a series for FF. Bill Claren's American Formula Ford Association. There were drivers who tried to do as many weekends as possible, even back to back, by planning extended road trips much like dirt oval racers.

[Steve Bamford]

In the eastern half of the US/Canada there were races every weekend. SCCA Nationals. SCCA Regionals. IMSA ran a series for FF. Bill Claren's American Formula Ford Association. There were drivers who tried to do as many weekends as possible, even back to back, by planning extended road trips much like dirt oval racers.

Ok, I would have to see total stats of number events to believe there was as many as there are now, but if that is not the case then how many classes were able to compete back then? I keep hearing too many classes so must be more now.

Back to Reids point on prices doubling, the costs are not at a point where they will stop either are they? They are also out pacing inflation. People say what’s an extra $50.00 per event year over year, well in most cases that’s greater then 10% increase & not many of us continually get a 10% wage increase each year.

[Chris Elwell]

I have two friends. (Shocker - Reid has friends? I know!) They are both upper 20's in age, no kids, good jobs, and massively passionate about racing and cars. They own cars already - one an FF and another a Prod car, and yet they don't race them. The cars sit. Why? It costs too much. If people like this; young, well employed, passionate, and already own the car can't afford the entry fee, SCCA and road racing is toast in 15 years. They should be the easiest person to convert into a customer, but at $500 for just an entry fee, that's not going to happen. It's been said for a long time "Hey, what's two-hundred bucks at the end of the day". Well, for a guy who does his own work, builds his engines, runs 8-cycle tires, it's a lot. And he/she isn't showing up because of it.

Reid,

Is it entirely a money issue that's keeping your friends away, or a time issue too? I know as I've gotten older (started when I was 22, now 29), the money part has become easier each year but each year I have less and less time. More of my time has to go to the wife or house or traveling for work etc compared to when I was younger. Having track days or ATV's or boats as a hobby is much less time commitment and it most cases way cheaper than road racing. I think some people get their fill of racing and then move onto easier, cheaper hobbies. Or are satisfied enough with track days that they never move up to road racing.

Chris

[Pi_guy]

Ok, I would have to see total stats of number events to believe there was as many as there are now, but if that is not the case then how many classes were able to compete back then? I keep hearing too many classes so must be more now.

Back to Reids point on prices doubling, the costs are not at a point where they will stop either are they? They are also out pacing inflation. People say what’s an extra $50.00 per event year over year, well in most cases that’s greater then 10% increase & not many of us continually get a 10% wage increase each year.

Back in the day I remember FV FF, FC FA. Can-am were put in ASR. Often two run groups for Formula Ford. My first race at Lime Rock in 78 was the forth of July a Pro Formula Atlantic was the headline at the SCCA National. You could not see a blade of grass in the spectators area it was packed.
Back then there was a national at some track every weekend and often you would have two competing regionals in the area. The NY region did 5 or 6 events a year including a national. There were pro races from different groups FF, F2000, Super Vee and the premier series the FA cars.
You had more involvement from corner worker the beer parties were rather large. I knew corner workers that were at a track on weekends from March until the runoffs.

[Jnovak]

Back in the day I remember FV FF, FC FA. Can-am were put in ASR. Often two run groups for Formula Ford. My first race at Lime Rock in 78 was the forth of July a Pro Formula Atlantic was the headline at the SCCA National. You could not see a blade of grass in the spectators area it was packed.
Back then there was a national at some track every weekend and often you would have two competing regionals in the area. The NY region did 5 or 6 events a year including a national. There were pro races from different groups FF, F2000, Super Vee and the premier series the FA cars.
You had more involvement from corner worker the beer parties were rather large. I knew corner workers that were at a track on weekends from March until the runoffs.

this is true. There was a time when it was hard work and hard racing to qualify for the Runoffs!

[Steve Demeter]

Not all that long ago MO had a Trans AM (early 80's), with a national, An IMSA race with a national (late 90's), a stand alone spectator national IIRC put on by Cincy region. These all drew many spectators. Where has the magic gone? I think it has to so with the root cause IMHO of the decline of club racing in general and that is money and too many other things to spend it on.

[Rick Kirchner]

I started doing tech in the Indy region in '82. If memory serves me right at that time there was:

FV, FF, FC,FA
CSR,DSR,S2
SSC,B,A
GT1,2,3,4,5
C,D,E,F,G,H PROD

So 21 national classes

Plus regional only F440 and ASR

I left in 89 to move out west and didn't return to the club until 2014. In 89 there now was:

F440, FV,FF,FC,FA,FM
CSR,DSR,S2,SR
SSC,B,A,GT,SS
GT1,2,3,4,5
D,E,F,G,H PROD

26 national classes (I think, I don't think D&E prod were gone yet)

Plus ASR and FS (I think) , ITA,B,C regional only. From 82 - 89 only saw two ASRs, Jerry Hansen's Frisbee and a Schikee.

During this time the only "blending" of classes I saw was adding F2000 to FC, which was at the time mostly 1700 AC FSV,1600 WC flat-bottom FSV, and 1600 WC ground-effect FSV. Never saw a 1100cc Cossie FC until I started running vintage, nor did I ever see any of the odder engines allowed in FC like small rotaries, datsuns, and fiats. Then the ground effect FSVs were "blended" info FA with EFI and 1800s and big tires.

[S Lathrop]

Car counts in the late 1960's and early 1970's were enormous compared to today. I started racing at Lime Rock in 1968. FV. Most weekends there were 2 FV races per weekend because the car counts for FV exceeded the maximum allowable for a single race at Lime Rock. I won the FF race at the June Sprints in the mid 1970's and there were over 80 starters in that race. The FV fields at Speed Week at Daytona back then were over 100 cars.

I think that back then, you could race on what then was medium income because you had way more disposable income with a medium income salary. Inflation has changed the dollar cost of everything but also we are paying a lot more of our incomes out in taxes at all levels and as such we just don't have the net income to spend on racing.

[reidhazelton]

Reid,

Is it entirely a money issue that's keeping your friends away, or a time issue too?

Chris

In the case of my friends, it's 100% money. One spends most nights, and weekend, wrenching away on his cars - street and race. The other has a car that is ready to go, so he doesn't need to work on it as he isn't driving it. When I go to watch AutoX events, one of the very first questions I get nearly every time is "isn't an entry fee like $500?" An AutoX entry is $50. That's a year of AutoX entry fees in one weekend. 'Back in the day', SCCA used to convert a few AutoX people to road racers. I don't see that happening any more. My friends who AutoX always talk about how much they would love to go road racing, and the entry fee kills that on the spot. The AutoX a couple times a month up here, and to do the same amount of road race events is just not possible. One road race event, or a summer of AutoX events?

Yes, they spend a lot of money on street cars with the go fast parts. I ask, "you just spent $3k on a turbo, why not got road racing?" The answers seem to be in terms of tangible product that doesn't go away after a weekend. $500 entry fee is $500 that is gone, where that $500 speed part is around for a lot longer.

To your scenario, I think that is true for many as well. I know one CenDiv FF racer who was a staple on the grid. He was always at a Major. Then, it got hard to justify the cost, so he bought a boat, kicked the racing-is-like-crack habit and is perfectly fine with it.

[Rick Kirchner]

Not to mention $800 helmets, nearly a thousand bucks worth of suit, shoes, gloves, and underwear, another $500-ish for the HANS, let's not forget a hundred a year in belt re-webs and the occasional HANS re-cert. Oh, and CCRs that don't allow trailers, hour-long commutes that kill time after work....

Middle class incomes have been flat for 30 years, while the "basics" now include phone bills larger than my parent's mortgage (heck, TWICE the size of my parent's mortgage), more "stuff you have to own and maintain (a new $800 PC every few years) and if you have a high-school age kid, don't forget the college costs (as one of my friends remarked "it's like buying a new lexus every year and driving it off a cliff').

If you are single and really, really want to race, you can live on macaroni in a dump and be happy, sleep at the track in a tent or the tow vehicle, but once you get a family they will be less thrilled.

[Stan Clayton]

I'm pretty sure I first read this letter 40 years ago...

[Robert Finlayson]

While I wasn’t racing in the 70’s, I did start racing Corvettes with SCCA in the mid 90’s. I agree with Reid, it’s about cost. I have done a cost analysis on what a typical race weekend costs then vs today and it has tripled. I know my salary hasn’t tripled in the last 20 years. One of your observations is the amount of semi’s in the paddock. Those of us who drove a pickup truck with an open trailer and camped at the track in a tent have been priced out of racing.

[reidhazelton]

Not to mention $800 helmets, nearly a thousand bucks worth of suit, shoes, gloves, and underwear, another $500-ish for the HANS, let's not forget a hundred a year in belt re-webs and the occasional HANS re-cert. Oh, and CCRs that don't allow trailers, hour-long commutes that kill time after work....

That is a great point. When I ran the SVRA event at Indy last year, I was in for rewebbed belts, HANS cert, etc. It seems mfg's have now convinced the SFI they need to recert things so they can make some more cash. My belts were used about 4 times, and sat since. But, they are now 'expired'. When I run the FF 50th at RA next year I'll be due yet again. Used once....but now 'expired'.

[Rick Kirchner]

I'll rant on Snell. At one time they were a needed resource. Now, when's the last time someone died from a helmet related issue? Yet every five years the specs get harder to meet and the prices go up, and it takes longer for the manufacturers to make something compliant.

If you are racing a top level pro series, I get it. but my 2005 helmet was bigger than my 95, and my 2015 helmet is bigger than the 05, and I damn near can't get it buckled anymore and it barely fits in the area behind my head that was designed for a smaller helmet.

It all gets down to a lack of understanding of the difference between possibility and probability. Imagine a hit hard enough to damage one of the older full CF HANS. Now, what's the probability of you having ANOTHER one - and thats if we never put in place a policy to check the helmet and HANS following a major shunt the way tech writes up the car.

[Jnovak]

While I wasn’t racing in the 70’s, I did start racing Corvettes with SCCA in the mid 90’s. I agree with Reid, it’s about cost. I have done a cost analysis on what a typical race weekend costs then vs today and it has tripled. I know my salary hasn’t tripled in the last 20 years. One of your observations is the amount of semi’s in the paddock. Those of us who drove a pickup truck with an open trailer and camped at the track in a tent have been priced out of racing.

truth

[EricP]

I’m only 44 so I don’t have personal experience but I find it interesting looking at paddock pics from the 60s and 70s where it was common for Ferraris, GT40s, etc to be seen rolling in on open trailers behind average pickup trucks and sitting in grass. Even “low level” race cars are treated wildly better now in vintage than they ever were back in the day.

[Jayeff]

Well if I had a wish list this is what It would look like..
This is just me throwing out ideas, i'm sure there are reasons most of this won't work but i'll put it out there anyway. Maybe if it was more compelling guys would make it a priority. You have to ask yourself why it is that other countries have what appears to be extremely successful Formula Racing and it is done by guys who are not rich or sponsored.

1. Uniform rules throughout all of Formula racing. Including uniform tires.( I'd ditch slicks altogether, but that's just me. The cost has to come down though regardless and tires is an easy way to do it) None of the sanctioning bodies have the rules as I'd personally like to see them, everyone has some facet of the rules that could be improved. This is especially true with regard to impound and protests at the end of a weekend.

2. A single calendar where I can go to find racing weekends that might suit me. (I know, but you all asked for my wish list)

3. Include the Canadians. I'd love to run VARAC at Mosport, it's equidistant for me to several other tracks, but it conflicts with Mid -Ohio, Why does it have to do that. It would help them and it would help us if we included them.

4.There are groups from the west coast that this time of year pack up and move east to race. Offer them some sort of series in the mid west every two weeks all summer. So for conjecture purposes: Start with last weekend at Elkhart Lake, then Memorial Day- Lets' say that's at Mid-Ohio,( since it's a holiday you could do it on Monday even) then second week of June at Mosport, then the last week of June at Indy, then go up to Blackhawk second week of July, then Brainard at the end of July. Something like that.

5. Give SCCA runoff points to Vintage racing events and include regular FF in vintage race weekends.OR.. ditch the runoffs entirely and just accumulate points all season with big race weekends, such as Watkins Glen in October, getting double points.

6.. Uniform licensing. you'd need at least a Novice permit to run but you can get that in one full day of schooling somewhere. SCCA would accept it and so would the Vintage organizations.. Some events can require more experience on a case by case basis. All licenses then issued by one body. As it is now is not the best imho.

7.. Limit entry fees to 350 dollars and nothing extra for a double weekend. I don't see the advantage anyway. I'm after track time mostly. Do I get more track time for double the entry fee? I doubt it. A second race is nice, but i'm not paying extra for it.

8.Find a way to penalize people across racing for dangerous driving.

9. Find a better way to penalize people across racing for cheating. As it is now, someone gets caught cheating and they just go to a different organization.

10. Cut the number of classes.

11. Have Formula only weekends. At least try it to see if you can get a decent group out. I'd do it at Mid Ohio and maybe one more. If it works out, do it more often. VIR in mid October would be a great place to do it.

12. Have an extra cost test day available before every race.

Just my two cents, but I think at Gingerman last weekend there was 1 club ford entered. I don't see how that is sustainable.

[Buc01]

Cost is major reason I do not race in SCCA. Not sure what the entry fee is in the region I am in (Oklahoma) for SCCA.

But, I would be willing to bet it is way more than the $ 310 per race weekend I pay to run in the COMMA series at Hallett. What does the $ 310 get you?

Per day: 2 Practice sessions, 1 Qualifying session, 1 Qualifying Race (6 laps), 1 Main Event Race (12 laps). Multiply that by 2X and that is a TON of track time. So much so that most people don't run all the sessions.

The Stephens family puts on a great race series focused on Safety and Fun. Yes, there are WAY more hood and fender cars that attend,,,, But, I am lucky that is does provide open wheel racers with a very cost effective and fun avenue to feed our addiction!

So, yes, I agree. It all comes down the $$$$$.

Aaron

[Ed Womer]

In the 70's I was an avid auto crosser, which was fun in my 76 Datsun 280 since I won a lot but I wanted to ultimately go road racing. If I remember when I went road racing in the early 80's at Summit Point entries were under a $100 and when I worked out the cost of racing verses auto cross road racing was a much better deal per minute of car time. Road racing is still a better deal if at $500 entry fee divided by 90 minutes of car time is $5.50 per minute. Auto cross at $50 divided by 2.5 minutes is $20 a minute so racing is still a better deal by far.

When I moved up to road racing my 280Z became my tow vehicle and I slept in a tent at the track and was just happy to be doing it in an old non competitive FV. Fast forward to 2011 and I was at the pointed end of FV racing but the cost of a weekend had ballooned to over $2K. I could afford it but I was just getting burned out and just decided to stop which I did. That was just before the Hans became mandatory and all of the other things that changed in requirements for safety equipment that constantly need to be new.

It appears as though they are considering making an expiration date for fuel cells which is also another absurd requirement. I have a brand new one never used that would become useless.

So with all of the options now to race it is no wonder that there is a decline in attendance at events which unfortunately push up the cost to play. My friends in the Challenge Cup series are wanting me to build another car and come back racing which I could do but the idea of having to spend big money on an engine which is the only thing that would cost me a lot and I don't have is basically what keeps me from doing it even though with the street radials the tire costs are almost nothing.

Then the other play things to do which for me has become flying, and with the light sport pilot rules it is considerably very cheap to fly. I don't know if I will get back in racing but still do it usually once a year in a loaned car and that is enough to satisfy me for now and maybe that is the way it will stay.

My opinion is unless they can reduce the big cost to own a car and entering races can come down or at least stop rising then only the well off will do it and they seem to have a short attention span and will move to something else about every 5 years.

Ed

[petawawarace]

It’s a combination of Time and Money
Formula cars are expensive racecars. Parts are not being mass produced, engines are generally expensive, suspension is extremely expensive.
certain aspects of racing are thriving right now. DIRTCAR sportsman Modifieds for example in the Upstate NY, and across here into Canada is booming. They run a simple chassis, parts are cheap and easy to get, spec crate motor rules,and the same rules run across atleast a dozen area tracks. Some tracks are having problems with too many cars. Fulton Speedway for example is running 3 features a night with 20+ cars in each one. Now that’s a good problemto have. They have full fields of cars, lots of fans, and they are thriving right now.

Road racing is way more expensive, and it takes a lot more time to go racing. These dirt oval racers are racing a Friday or Saturday night, and they can spend the rest ofthe weekend doing family things, or working. Sure some guys do race 5 nights aweek, but that’s not the norm.
I’ve been running a Gentlemans Libre series at Calabogie forthe past 5 years. That’s how I got started in road racing. I could easily go regional racing with CASC, but the expense involved is not worth it in mymind. [My dad and I split the car and its costs. We don’t want to/can’t run more than a weekend or two if we went regional racing. So to go run a pair of regional races we would need to pay for schools, medicals, annual licences,club memberships. Then with entry fees, hotel (or towing the camper with another truck), gas, food etc, we’re 3-4K before we’d even turn a wheel. And all that for a couple 30 minute races? It just doesn’t make sense. Our local Casc guys have been offering an alternative to the full licence for a one time deal which we will likely try out. But the bang for the buck just isn’t there compared to alternatives. A full season of Libre nights is $1200. That’s a full test day, plus 7 evening races. The evening races are 40 mins of practice/Quali and a 30 minute race. They provide free beer and food after and the atmosphere is great.

The cost and hassle to get on the track and go regional roadracing is the biggest problem IMO.

[2BWise]

Chump car, Lemons, AER, WRL, trackday organizations, etc all seem to have pretty good turnouts and cost about the same in time and money. Is it simply better product or more desirable product? If a series who's premise is to race $500 crap cans is successful when the weekend expenditures are roughly the same per driver then why is it more appealing than SCCA or OWR in general? Most of those entrants aren't worried about running at the front of the pack and yet they still go. Time and money may be why a lot of us have cut back, or run minimal schedules, but by looking at the overall atmosphere of "driving and racing on a track" it seems way more popular than it ever was in the past.

[CGOffroad]

I will throw in a comment that is kind of in line with what Aaron (Buc01) is describing. In Arizona there is a track which has just finished their 3rd season of a 'home grown' race series. This year the open wheel group rivaled, and out numbered the closed wheel group at a few of the events.

Here is what an event weekend is like at this place: Friday track opens for race entrants around 12:00 or 13:00. Track runs sessions on a 1 hour rotation for everyone. If there are Closed wheel, Open wheel and Motorcycle, then each get a session of 20 minutes every hour until sunset. Last couple of events, Open wheelers got either 3 or 4 sessions on Friday.
Sat / Sun: 1 practice, 1 Qualify, 1 Race. Typically this was completed around 14:00. At that point, track is open again on an hourly rotation for people who wanted to run. Everyone in the open wheel group elected to tinker with cars and not run any more sessions. Main race is time based, not lap based. It will be between 20-30 minutes long. The event managers change the configuration and time to make the events feel different.
Meals: Saturday and Sunday a lunch is provided. Typically something like wraps, hamburgers, fajitas, etc. Then Saturday evening there is a wine/beer social and hot meal served in 'the barn'
Motel: There is a motel in town that offers a discounted rate for racers who are in town and attending an event at this track.
Cost: +/- $625

This event sounds to be similar to how Aaron describes the COMMA event. It sounds like the COMMA event has steady participation or is growing. This event in AZ seems to be growing. So, it appears that 'home grown' events that offer a lot of track time is of interest to people.

[MotorCade]

We're similar with GLC. We do run with SCCA regional events, but by having a 'camaraderie' focus, we have managed to have a very good core group and a good turnout at most events. This weekend at Gingerman, we were only outnumbered by the spec miatas, and even then, only by two entries.

We have a lunch together on Saturday, and many of us turn out for extra practice sessions on Fridays. $400 for the weekend, and an extra 200 for 4 practice sessions if desired.

With FCs at an all-time low, the overall cost is exceptional for the speed you get. A car can be had for around 12k, spend between 2-4k to get it running right. It's very possible to get through the 5 weekend season on 3 sets of tires. Entry fees and travel are the biggest cost drivers, as most of us run Avgas at around $5/gallon. Many of us sleep in the trailers. A reasonable budget is in the 6k (Curtis, I'm looking at you) to 10k range, if you're frugal.

[marshall9]

I have no solution to offer, but I am your friend Reid, lol.
For me, it is not only the racing costs, but also the lost income for all the long weekends and travel. That is real. To take a week off to do a really cool event, like COTA, cost me double the race expense in lost wages. It is getting harder for me to convince my wife to let me use all of my paid vacation time to race, when she would rather take a "Real" vacation. Having 10 weekends to choose from locally really helps with this issue for me. It seems to me that other than the teams that can afford to travel and do the pro series races, like those of us on the club level seem to find that more locally concentrated series are better attended like the GLC up in Michigan and our FF series out here and HSR West, Etc

[Robins Ken]

I have no solution to offer, but I am your friend Reid, lol.
For me, it is not only the racing costs, but also the lost income for all the long weekends and travel. That is real. To take a week off to do a really cool event, like COTA, cost me double the race expense in lost wages. It is getting harder for me to convince my wife to let me use all of my paid vacation time to race, when she would rather take a "Real" vacation. Having 10 weekends to choose from locally really helps with this issue for me. It seems to me that other than the teams that can afford to travel and do the pro series races, like those of us on the club level seem to find that more locally concentrated series are better attended like the GLC up in Michigan and our FF series out here and HSR West, Etc

Why does it take 3 1/2 days to run a Formula Ford race?

3 heat cycle tires will discourage anyone with a functioning brain. (and a wife/partner!)

How about sedans on Saturday, open wheel on Sunday. P,Q,R x2.

KR

[Chris Elwell]

In the case of my friends, it's 100% money. One spends most nights, and weekend, wrenching away on his cars - street and race. The other has a car that is ready to go, so he doesn't need to work on it as he isn't driving it. When I go to watch AutoX events, one of the very first questions I get nearly every time is "isn't an entry fee like $500?" An AutoX entry is $50. That's a year of AutoX entry fees in one weekend. 'Back in the day', SCCA used to convert a few AutoX people to road racers. I don't see that happening any more. My friends who AutoX always talk about how much they would love to go road racing, and the entry fee kills that on the spot. The AutoX a couple times a month up here, and to do the same amount of road race events is just not possible. One road race event, or a summer of AutoX events?

Yes, they spend a lot of money on street cars with the go fast parts. I ask, "you just spent $3k on a turbo, why not got road racing?" The answers seem to be in terms of tangible product that doesn't go away after a weekend. $500 entry fee is $500 that is gone, where that $500 speed part is around for a lot longer.

To your scenario, I think that is true for many as well. I know one CenDiv FF racer who was a staple on the grid. He was always at a Major. Then, it got hard to justify the cost, so he bought a boat, kicked the racing-is-like-crack habit and is perfectly fine with it.

I've had the same discussion with my autocross friends which ends the same way. One road race weekend ($2000?) is what they'll spend for a whole season of autocross assuming they buy a set of $1000 tires during the year. I can definitely understand the justification of expensive car parts too vs entry fees that become just memories. We spend all this money on open wheel cars, that then sit parked in the garage for 350-360 days a year because they're too expensive to take to the track or the closest track is a several hour tow away. At least a nice street car with a big turbo can be taken out and enjoyed whenever you feel like it and it only costs $20 for gas.

[FVRacer21]

They are going to have over 20 FV's at NHIS this weekend, Challenge Cup seems to have over 15+, (Formula First will have to fill us in on how they are doing) and next year the SE might be revived with their spec tire. Vintage Vee also has large fields.

Right now FV is the cheapest way to go formula racing competitively IF you are in an area that supports it. But it is hard for someone who has done FF or F2000 to step down to a more affordable class.

Back in 70's through late 80's, you had top notch FFs at the pointy end of the field but there were also a lot of field fillers, building their own engines and dreaming of a Stimola, Loyning or Quicksilver..... Now the level of prep and technology has excluded these hard charging back-markers. The gap is too big to jump from FV...

There was also a logical ladder to move up and enough cars in the pipeline to make that happen.

All of the previously mentioned reasons are valid - cost, time, life in general - we have to change the model to fit the situation.

To go back to the topic - in 10 years (2028)
1. Electric car racing on smaller footprint race tracks (maybe even in city environments due to reduced noise)
2. Gas powered racing will be restricted due to pollution, but still popular due to autonomous cars - where else will you be able to DRIVE a car but on a racetrack?
3. There will be more rental cars as young and middle age professionals go urban.

I am looking forward to sleeping in my autonomous truck while it takes me and my FV to a vintage weekend.

ChrisZ

[BeerBudgetRacing]

For me, it is not only the racing costs, but also the lost income for all the long weekends and travel. That is real. To take a week off to do a really cool event, like COTA, cost me double the race expense in lost wages.

I had dinner with racing friends last night and we were talking about making 2019 a destination track year.

But traveling from CA to COTA is a big time commitment.

The assumption is that you have to be part of a big team to travel like that.

I've always wondered why there wasn't a PODS service for racers. You load up a POD (your car, your tools, your spares) and its picked up and delivered to the pits of your next race venue. You fly in, open the door, do your thing, re-pack and close the door and fly home. The PITPOD is then picked up and shipped to your next destination.
You could probably use the existing PODS infrastructure.

This might also solve the storage problem many of us have. We buy a PITPOD instead of a box trailer and customize the inside as we see fit. It can then be stacked/stored somewhere between races.
The PITPOD could load onto a towable frame for our local events or to tow home to work on the car.

PM me for my contact info to send royalty checks. Thanks.

[Earley Motorsports]

Now there is some thinking and expense

[TimH]

Why does it take 3 1/2 days to run a Formula Ford race?
KR

Travel.

The AZ group is incredibly fortunate to have so many tracks nearby. Ok, the Wild Horse Pass short tracks are more like practice tracks than race tracks but there are 3-4 of them (depending on configuration) about 5 miles from my front door. Add just a few hours of trailer time and we get some lovely alternatives, and still have organizations that give more than an hour/day of track time. There's just no comparison to the less than 10 minutes/weekend for AutoX. I don't know what to suggest for other areas that aren't as lucky as we are, other than to stash your cars here then fly in to come play with us (some are doing that).

[Buc01]

I will throw in a comment that is kind of in line with what Aaron (Buc01) is describing. In Arizona there is a track which has just finished their 3rd season of a 'home grown' race series. This year the open wheel group rivaled, and out numbered the closed wheel group at a few of the events.

Here is what an event weekend is like at this place: Friday track opens for race entrants around 12:00 or 13:00. Track runs sessions on a 1 hour rotation for everyone. If there are Closed wheel, Open wheel and Motorcycle, then each get a session of 20 minutes every hour until sunset. Last couple of events, Open wheelers got either 3 or 4 sessions on Friday.
Sat / Sun: 1 practice, 1 Qualify, 1 Race. Typically this was completed around 14:00. At that point, track is open again on an hourly rotation for people who wanted to run. Everyone in the open wheel group elected to tinker with cars and not run any more sessions. Main race is time based, not lap based. It will be between 20-30 minutes long. The event managers change the configuration and time to make the events feel different.
Meals: Saturday and Sunday a lunch is provided. Typically something like wraps, hamburgers, fajitas, etc. Then Saturday evening there is a wine/beer social and hot meal served in 'the barn'
Motel: There is a motel in town that offers a discounted rate for racers who are in town and attending an event at this track.
Cost: +/- $625

This event sounds to be similar to how Aaron describes the COMMA event. It sounds like the COMMA event has steady participation or is growing. This event in AZ seems to be growing. So, it appears that 'home grown' events that offer a lot of track time is of interest to people.

Forgot to mention that the COMMA series runs Hallett both directions. Usually about 60/40 split. And not surprisingly (at least to me) running the track opposite directions presents very unique challenges.

Aaron

[Rick Kirchner]

I wrote about this once before, but it's hard to beat SoCal. From my place I have Willow Springs (90 min), Buttonwillow with all of its configurations (2 hrs), Cal Speedway (2 hrs, hopefully the track management will pay some attention to the road course), Pahrump with a ton of configurations (3 hrs), Vegas road course (4 hrs), Chuckwalla (5 hrs) and Reno-Fernley, tons of configurations (5 hrs), Laguna (5 hrs), Phx and Wild horse pass/Firebird (8 hrs), Sonoma (8 hrs) and Thunderhill (10 hrs). Add a few more to that you get Portland, Inde, and Miller.

Now there's a lot of population density, but with that many tracks, some which can host more than one event at a time, there's still capacity. And Reno, Vegas, and Miller are hardly used, so even more capacity available. Plus - from South to North you have a 12 month season, the worst weather you get is wind, and none of the tows are particularly hard.

Having said that, we are still short of open wheel entries above FF.

As far as what will it look like in the future? Our particular form of racing will look like horse racing today. People with money coming out to watch a quaint art form that is no longer particularly relevant to anyone except those watching and those doing.

[Jnovak]

Well this is my 51st year as an SCCA member and we have pretty much always been very low bucks racers until we had some sponsor help that nearly closed us down completely. I have to say that we have always built and maintained our own cars and i mean 100%.

It has been getting tougher and tougher to compete on any level because costs have increased so much. I do not know what the future holds for SCCA racing and i think that OW racing is in very serious trouble and i expect that we will see a reduction in the number of OW classes in the next 5 years.

Imo the CLUB must figure out how to reduce the costs to race! PLEASE!!!

We are now finally back to building from scratch with a P2 based on our Novakar Blade F5-6 race car, 90% done. We are also designing a new updated F5-6 car that should reduce the cost to build and maintain the car by a very significant margin. Hopefully the SCCA and particularly OW racing survives.

We will see what happens but Brian and I are not going away!

[Rick Kirchner]

All over in this thread and the one regarding the runoffs formula people keep talking about THE CLUB - like it was something they owned, helped build the clubhouse in a big tree, etc,etc. Get real folks. The SCCA is no more of a "CLUB" than COSTCO. you pay for a membership and that entitles you to spend more money in their organization, no more, no less. You have a slightly better chance of getting on one of the SCCA's boards than COSTCO's, but about the same chance of making changes to the way the machine works.

Frankly, it would be an interesting business school doctorate to look through all the various SCCA related forums, analyze the bitches and gripes, analyze the rules making structure, the people that populate the boards and their decisions - along with the club finances and all the intertwined business dealings.

The answer's there, but we're unlikely to find it.

[Christopher Shoemaker]

1. Uniform rules throughout all of Formula racing. Including uniform tires.( I'd ditch slicks altogether, but that's just me. The cost has to come down though regardless and tires is an easy way to do it) None of the sanctioning bodies have the rules as I'd personally like to see them, everyone has some facet of the rules that could be improved. This is especially true with regard to impound and protests at the end of a weekend.

2. A single calendar where I can go to find racing weekends that might suit me. (I know, but you all asked for my wish list)

3. Include the Canadians. I'd love to run VARAC at Mosport, it's equidistant for me to several other tracks, but it conflicts with Mid -Ohio, Why does it have to do that. It would help them and it would help us if we included them.

5. Give SCCA runoff points to Vintage racing events and include regular FF in vintage race weekends.OR.. ditch the runoffs entirely and just accumulate points all season with big race weekends, such as Watkins Glen in October, getting double points.

8.Find a way to penalize people across racing for dangerous driving.

9. Find a better way to penalize people across racing for cheating. As it is now, someone gets caught cheating and they just go to a different organization.

12. Have an extra cost test day available before every race.

I would like to discuss these in more detail, if you are willing? The RFFCS is running full bore and with Mosport this year we are starting to branch out to our sister clubs to make what Monoposto should be today ... a single source for Open Wheel (a real shame that they have lost their way). I think you being up some great ideas ... let us chat cause in the case of RFFCS, we can actually put some of these in motion. Coming to Mosport? If no PM!

--- Chris

[Rick Kirchner]

I think the vintage clubs have addressed many of Jay's concerns, but it still requires the clubs to participate.

Through the VMC, member clubs can notify other clubs of bad behavior - like when someone get's 13/13'd, to prevent the guy from jumping to another club to avoid punishment. It does require a club to post an issue and the others to read about it prior to accepting an entry. They also handle notification of technical failures.

VARA and SVRA already allow modern formula cars in one way or another. There are clubs where the world stopped in 1972 - CSRG is one. I think that's where Monoposto went astray. Instead of promoting all old formula cars, they promoted their idea of old - usually with the requirement for folks to backdate their cars, which can create an expensive market for old unobtanium junk. If you want participation to grow, you have to be inclusive, not exclusive.

The tire argument will likely remain, although the clubs have found ways to accommodate others. What complicates tire deals are when there's a business element in the background where a club is getting some kind of kickback for designating a specific tire - then with that entanglement you can't easily accommodate others.

In a few years SVRA may have a legitimate national championship for several classes, if they can get over their fascination with old trans-am cars.....

Recognizing points and participation in other club's events is an interesting concept, but the more I think of it so is the concept of a "National Champion". That's pretty unique to the amateur side of the SCCA. Look at dirt cars - there's a lot more variation in classes despite appearances and there are track and geographical championships, but I think the only real claim to a "National Championship" is in the "Late Model" category. Everyone else, if you want to prove your mettle against someone else, show up with a compliant car or rent one locally.

[Earley Motorsports]

"

There are clubs where the world stopped in 1972 - CSRG is one. I think that's where Monoposto went astray. Instead of promoting all old formula cars, they promoted their idea of old - usually with the requirement for folks to backdate their cars, which can create an expensive market for old unobtanium junk. If you want participation to grow, you have to be inclusive, not exclusive."

My point exactly here. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...961#post561961