Tips for Riding in an Ambulance

[problemchild]

Readiing about Dave W's adventure and then returning home to fresh collection communication, prompts me to offer advice to those driving race cars, who may one day, get a ride from the track in an ambulance.

1) Have a card in your suit with your medical insurance provider information and phone numbers for your friends at the track. When you don't have your phone, and you are sitting in the hospital in your underwear, you need to be able to provide insurance info and be able to reach your friends/crew. The alternative is that they will call your wife .... which may not be what you want under those circumstances.

2) Advise everyone you talk to at the hospital that you were not in a motor vehicle accident. The hospital has processes in place for motor vehicle accidents that assume there will be expensive legal activities, which will be paid for by auto insurance companies. If you don't be loud, clear, and firm, you will have $20K worth of tests and scans done to you before they even know your name.

3) Don't let them cut off your suit to do these tests.

4) Be prepared to spend a month of your life dealing with sorting out the paperwork.

5) Do not expect the organization running the event to help you with any of it. In my case, when I contacted SCCA, yes, they sent me two forms, but Janet Farwell ceremoniously decreed that my competition license was immediately suspended, pending a new medical. This seemed her biggest concern. Considering that my license was expiring in a week and race season was over, This seemed unnecessarily oppressive. The bottom line is that you will be on your own to do everything that needs to be done.

Yes, it was a bad experience, to go with others I have had recently, but I expect it to all work out. Seven months later, I get several collection letters per month, which I follow up with calls to my insurance company, who assure me will be covered by them in due time. I also get letters from K&K denying payment on those same collection letters, because those are the responsibility of my primary provider. In the end, I expect my primary provider will pay all the claims, and K&K will cover my deductible. I of course, still have to fix the crashed race car and replace my racing suit (which was undamaged before I got to the hospital).

I won't go into the extended details, but it was a crash into a wall last November. I am not upset that I was provided with medical assistance as I have about 15 mins memory loss and another short period of confusion. I have seen pics of me standing beside the car and had no physical injuries. I clearly got my bell rung. I think that strapping me to a table, cutting off my suit, and doing scans of my entire body, was excessive. Once the tests were on the books, I was left sitting in my underwear in the waiting room. I got a ride back to the track, got in my truck and drove 18 hours home. Now I spend hours dealing with documentation and hoping it all works out in the end.

I am not trying to stop anyone from racing. I am suggesting that you prepare yourself and understand the situation. Every year, a few of us will live this experience.

[dc]

Lots of excellent first-hand advice, Greg. Thanks for posting this.

I hope things clear up for you really soon.

[RussMcB]

Yeah, thanks, Greg. I'm embarrassed to say I've never really thought about that stuff. Great post.

[problemchild]

Yeah, thanks, Greg. I'm embarrassed to say I've never really thought about that stuff. Great post.

I wanted to post sooner but I thought I needed to let some time pass, and let some emotion pass. There were days early on, when I thought I would be liable for all the charges, some clearly excessive, but it appears it will resolve itself. People need to understand that their primary medical insurer is the first level, not the race organizer's insurance.

Perhaps a general life lesson, we should know some actual phone numbers, for when in trouble without our phone.

I literally had two collection letters waiting for me as I arrived home, sat down to my desk and learned of Dave's status.

[Hardingfv32]

I have had two major SCCA racing injuries, broken ankle and broken neck. I never mentioned my personal insurance. SCCA covered everything without any paper work on my part. At least nothing that I can remember. These accidents happened 10 and 20 years ago.

Maybe involving your personal insurance is a complication.

Brian

[Dave Harmison]

So I'm testing trucks with a colleague on a private test track and it's my turn to watch while he drives. He has a "big one". I get him out of the truck and he's unhurt, but per track and corporate rules, he must take the ambulance ride to get checked out. County EMS dispatches ambulance, fire truck and sheriff per their policy. While my colleague, who we'll call Spud to protect his identity, is being loaded into the ambulance, the sheriff asks for his driver's license. I convince the track manager and the sheriff that this is an "industrial accident" just like crashing a forklift, NOT A MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENT.

Important distinction when you're testing cars and stuff goes wrong. No one wants accidents but sometimes the test ends in an unforeseen failure.

I have 30 years of stories like this if you want to buy me a beer Saturday after racing.

[Dave Harmison]

And to Greg's point, when I had my big one at Grattan in 2009 I had to fight pretty hard to make sure it wasn't recorded as an auto accident. In Michigan there is no fee schedule for the doctors or hospitals to follow for an auto accident, unlike the fee schedule Blue Cross or other insurance negotiate. For auto accidents the billing is "the skies the limit". It's one of several reasons our auto insurance premiums are so high.

I kept telling the nice insurance lady it was a sports accident, not a car accident. Explaining that when an Indy 500 driver crashes Roger Penske doesn't call AAA didn't help her understand at all.

[EYERACE]

One of the main reasons I continue to race SCCA is their Insurance. Roughly 10 years ago I racked up about $250,000.00 in total medical billing: Docs, hospital, ambulance [3 rides], rehab, meds. etc. The one ambulance ride from the Sebring hospital to a Level III trauma center in Orlando I'll bet was $3,000.00. I believe I paid out of pocket about $250.00 total for everything. The Club's Chaplin was at the hospital and a big help in getting the SCCA's paperwork in my hands. I kept telling anyone and everyone, in keeping with HCFA billing forms, to bill as "ACCIDENT OTHER." A buddy of mine in a wreck at Daytona learned this the hard way - 2 years later his nightmare resolved. I agree to have info in your suit.

[Steve Davis]

I have had two major SCCA racing injuries, broken ankle and broken neck. I never mentioned my personal insurance. SCCA covered everything without any paper work on my part. At least nothing that I can remember. These accidents happened 10 and 20 years ago.

Maybe involving your personal insurance is a complication.

Brian

'Back in the day', SCCA insurance was PRIMARY. It paid 100% of ALL costs associated with the incident and any recovery. Some years ago (don't recall exactly when), that was changed to save SCCA many thousands of dollars in insurance fees. Now, the SCCA insurance is only primary if the driver has NO insurance. I don't know exactly how that works, but I THINK the SCCA insurance does cover any amount that your primary insurance doesn't cover. Thankfully, I have no experience in that regard. I'm also pretty sure that SCCA would take investigative action (or their insurance holder) if a driver were to claim he had NO insurance. Trying to go that route if you actually DO have medical insurance would no doubt lead to disciplinary action on SCCA's part.

Making sure that it's not reported as an 'automobile accident' is a VERY good idea ('sporting incident' sounds SO MUCH BETTER!) .. don't ever get out your personal CAR insurance card at an SCCA event.

[EYERACE]

Doctors and hospitals file something called a HCFA claim form - albeit a computerized version but nevertheless the format is that form.
Find a PDF version by googling: HCFA 1500 form (02/12). There are various versions by date, 02/12 is the current. Box #1 is checked "other" Box #10 is three parts: A - check NO, B check NO, C check YES. There is no place to enter the information 'sporting incident'

[Zonker]

One other thing to do is leave the keys to your tow rig with someone who won't be going to the hospital with you. It's tough to load up someones car when the truck and trailer are locked up.

[Hardingfv32]

That is something you should do before every session. You never know when bad luck is going to strike.

Brian

[problemchild]

I stumbled across this thread and believe bumping back to the top would be a public service.

[EYERACE]

Well thought out Greg......and hopefully not timely for anyone out there.

Remember....the "forms" have a space marked "accident other" .......keep telling everyone you were not involved in an "auto accident" and to file as "accident other"

As far as I know SCCA Insurance remains primary.....meaning your car and personal health insurance do not become involved.....which is not the story for most other sanctioning bodies.

Your personal health and your auto insurance will become involved if you do not clearly and multiple times tell anyone and everyone to not consider those policies..........and if they do become involved it will make for nightmare problems

As to having one's suit cut off at the hospital.......that depends on the nature of the injury. I'm glad the people at Sebring Hospital had sharp scissors.

Ambulance tip: While riding, if the driver comes across another wreck, expect them to stop and render aid......that's how it went for me (because I was stabilized on the board) during my trip from Sebring to Orlando while strapped to a board.... and the driver came across some cars with random non-factory fender designs and mud induced stopping placements in the median strip near Disney World.

[John Nesbitt]

...
As far as I know SCCA Insurance remains primary.....meaning your car and personal health insurance do not become involved.....which is not the story for most other sanctioning bodies.

Your personal health and your auto insurance will become involved if you do not clearly and multiple times tell anyone and everyone to not consider those policies..........and if they do become involved it will make for nightmare problems

...

SCCA participant medical insurance is secondary. It becomes primary only if the patient does not have medical insurance.

See the attached coverage summary from SCCA.


2022 participant accident coverage summary.pdf

[problemchild]

Unfortunately, once you get that ambulance ride, then you are lost on a deserted island. You have people coming after you to collect from all different directions. While the safety steward from the event was a nice guy, he was in way over his head and was no use whatsoever. The woman from member services was even less helpful, and only concern was taking away my racing license for the last 4 days of the aleady over season.

That is why i posted this thread in the first place.

For those of you that are actually trying to improve the SCCA process, I will suggest that SCCA have a member of its full-time staff who actually knows how the process works, and gets assigned to accident victims as an advisor, making sure they navigate the system properly. I know most of you get tired of my suggestions, but this seems like a minimum level of support that a race organizer should bring to its membership base of this size. While my comments have targeted SCCA events, other race organizers and vintage groups should also have someone in place who can help those who find them selves dropped into the messy process.

[E1pix]

Thank You very, *very* much for this thread Greg, and to all who posted on it.

We’re been down this dark path already, and I absolutely will not support the health insurance cartel. I turn 65 in 31 months so will await Medicaid/Medicare.

We discussed some of this with a Swiss brain damage therapist for over an hour yesterday. She pays under $200/month for 100% coverage, and 15% income tax.

When we pay 20% of an insurance claim here, we’re covering the actual value of the service provided, the rest is gravy for insurers and “healthcare” providers — and it’s sickening.

With any luck, nobody here will never have to experience any of this.

Good Luck to all.


Edit: I should clarify, though, I once had a small claim with K&K in 1982 while karting — and they were unproblematic. It’s refreshing to read they apparently still cover claims if otherwise uninsured.

[Hardingfv32]

SCCA participant medical insurance is secondary. It becomes primary only if the patient does not have medical insurance.

The key here is not to volunteer any personal insurance information. Claim no private.insurance coverage. I have had two big accidents and claimed no private coverage. I might have mentioned SCCA, but have no idea how that information was related to the billing parties. I'm am going to assume a Regional official handled things, because there was no effort on my part.

I think the clubs system is more than adequate. We do not need to spend more to make it better. If you are in an accident, such it up and move on.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

We’re been down this dark path already, and I absolutely will not support the health insurance cartel. I turn 65 in 31 months so will await Medicaid/Medicare.

We discussed some of this with a Swiss brain damage therapist for over an hour yesterday. She pays under $200/month for 100% coverage, and 15% income tax.

The medical industry is not the most profitable industry in the US. Its business model could be a little more complex than you make it out to be.

Swiss total taxes are quite a bit higher than 15%. There are very high local taxes to take into acct. Their government funding model is very different than ours.

Brian

[E1pix]

Healthcare should have never had a “business model.”

I never said it was any more or less profitable than other industries.

[mmi16]

My experience with SCCA Insurance was when I broke my thumb at Sebring in 2007. Went to a Orthopedic Surgical organization for treatment and when they found out that SCCA was involved - they refused to treat me. Fortunately, a fellow racer recommended his personal hand surgeon and I was seen the next day and had surgery to fix the problem and therapy afterwards to bring the thumb back to normal. Everything was covered through my employers medical insurance. I think I ended up spending something like $100 out of pocket.

[John Nesbitt]

The key here is not to volunteer any personal insurance information. Claim no private.insurance coverage. I have had two big accidents and claimed no private coverage. I might have mentioned SCCA, but have no idea how that information was related to the billing parties. I'm am going to assume a Regional official handled things, because there was no effort on my part.

I think the clubs system is more than adequate. We do not need to spend more to make it better. If you are in an accident, such it up and move on.

Brian

I do not know when you had your accidents, but you might take a peek at the attached current medical insurance claim form, which patients use to claim for injury at events. You are most definitely required to declare other coverage. Note also the state-by-state (including California ) warnings about fraud.

I should emphasize also that event and Club officials have a very limited role in this process - essentially to write an incident report (without detailed medical information), and to provide patients with documents describing the medical claims process. The real insurance transaction happens between patient and insurer(s).

[Jim Edmonds]

it is sad but in Phoenix you may wait eight to twelve hours before you get through the emergency room queue of uninsured, who use the ERs for primary care. Ask me how I know.

I've found the best way to get care in a reasonable time is to have the local paramedics deliver you on a backboard with blood running out of your mouth. That almost always gets you to the front of the line.

The second best is to be delivered on a backboard by helicopter with the helicopter's paramedic suggesting you might have internal injuries due to the violence of your "incident".

Other than those all bets are off. Sad.

Take care and race responsibly.

Jim Edmonds

[EYERACE]

John, thanks for the link to 'participant accident coverage'
I shall post a copy of that page in my trailer. I once mentioned a little about the SCCA's on-track Insurance to the Newbies during a Driver's School following my own unintentional education but I can't remember anyone else doing such at any event.
So, one's own policy is primary......if it's the common 80% & 20% thing > the SCCA would be paying the 20% then is my understanding.....as well as co-pays and the primary's non-covered things.....like the dreaded out-of-network.
An explanation of the 104 weeks thing is > if one was disabled so as to not work, in essence the SCCA has a disability policy that pays but after two years pf being disabled, regardless of age, Medicare Disability status would then kick in

[E1pix]

An explanation of the 104 weeks thing is > if one was disabled so as to not work, in essence the SCCA has a disability policy that pays but after two years pf being disabled, regardless of age, Medicare Disability status would then kick in

If under 63, Medicare also takes exactly two years from the date of application to enact (not the date of disability).

Edit:
This is a common factor in the current 530,000 medical bankruptcies per year in the US — per the NIH — and in many cases, even if the patient was fully insured.