DaveW is OK

[SMRacing]

In the design of anybody's crush box, a good place to start reading about what is needed can be found here:

http://www.rohacell.com/product/peek...-report-en.pdf

Part of what they finally came up with was a secondary bulkhead forward of the master cylinders, which has the advantage of allowing easy access to the MCs, as well a decreasing the lever arm applied to the mounting points of the crush box in a lateral impact.

I am no engineer (as anyone who has ever seen me in the paddock can attest) but that was a hugely interesting read. Thank you for posting that. I could even follow almost all of it!

[R. Pare]

I also have a copy of the original Cranfield study that was commissioned by Ford 10years ago, but it is 10 times to big to attach here ( 9MB).

If someone can find the internet link to it and post it here, it is also an extremely good study on crash box design.

[Bob Coury]

Jeez-just heard about this today from a friend visiting from Ohio. Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery!

[holmberg]

I also have a copy of the original Cranfield study that was commissioned by Ford 10years ago, but it is 10 times to big to attach here ( 9MB).

If someone can find the internet link to it and post it here, it is also an extremely good study on crash box design.

You should just upload it to your Google drive and then post a link to it here.

[EldenFF]

On the accident, just before the green flag I got hit in the rear (nose to rear wing mount/quickjack point) and knocked sideways just enough to head me directly into the "Fitch Barriers" at the entrance to the pit lane.

I didn't lose consciousness, but that was definitely the most painful accident I've ever had. I had to sit there for a minute or 2 to take deep breaths and assess whether my feet and legs were seriously damaged. The only semi-serious injury was to my right knee area.

The car needs major repair, and I have a broken tibial plateau. So I'm likely out for the season, plus I am hobbling around on one leg with crutches waiting to see an orthopedic surgeon and get into surgery, so I can't even get anything done around home that needs doing. I'll likely be out of commission for the better part of 2 months. On the bright side, no loss of consciousness, etc., so other than being depressed, mentally I'm fine.

It's obviously a major bummer, since the car was working well, and I am not used to not being self-sufficient.

Hope to be back next season or sooner if all the stars align.

And thanks to all of you for your well-wishes!

Dave, I am relieved that you are OK and that you and your car are repairable. When I read about your accident at the beginning of the thread, I was very worried and not happy that this happened to you. You are someone I truly admire so I hope you are back on track and up to speed ASAP. I also hope Sherrie can put up with you while you recover! PP

[Brad Smith]

Glad Dave will be OK. I own his old 88 model and am wondering if I have the same design nose box. It ties into the lower wishbone mount and looks stronger than any other design I've seen. Don't want to test it either, though!
Steve, will you be looking at a Halo type update to your frames?

[S Lathrop]

Glad Dave will be OK. I own his old 88 model and am wondering if I have the same design nose box. It ties into the lower wishbone mount and looks stronger than any other design I've seen. Don't want to test it either, though!
Steve, will you be looking at a Halo type update to your frames?

Right now I am working on a new nose box design.

The Citations starting in 1987 and through the 1994 designs had the same front bulkhead and for the most part the nose boxes were similar but they changed after each wreck as I saw how to improve them.

Dave"s nose box failed at the mounting points. But not without putting up a good fight first. The challenge here is that this impact was largely later at the front of the box which is the worst case situation for the nose box to do its job.

The one thing I can say is that any new nose box will have to be removed to have access to the master cylinders and the mounting system will have to be something a lot stronger that what I have done previously. And the design has to be such that it crushes progressively from the point of impact and never fails at the front bulkhead unless that is the last part intact.

[Purple Frog]

This is what is amazing about Apexspeed over the years.
An open forum.
And the designers come on board and talk about improvements for safety.
I've seen emails where Steve and Dave are sharing ideas on how to improve the whole front structure.
The result is that it is better for all.
I'm looking forward to see a stronger attachment mechanism for the nose assembly to the front of the chassis.

[R. Pare]

Somebody let me know if this works as a link to the Cranfield study - it works when I click on it at least.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10pq...ew?usp=sharing

[BURKY]

Thanks Richard.

[BLS]

"

Somebody let me know...

"

Worked for me.

[Lenny T.]

Right now I am working on a new nose box design.

The Citations starting in 1987 and through the 1994 designs had the same front bulkhead and for the most part the nose boxes were similar but they changed after each wreck as I saw how to improve them.

Dave"s nose box failed at the mounting points. But not without putting up a good fight first. The challenge here is that this impact was largely later at the front of the box which is the worst case situation for the nose box to do its job.

The one thing I can say is that any new nose box will have to be removed to have access to the master cylinders and the mounting system will have to be something a lot stronger that what I have done previously. And the design has to be such that it crushes progressively from the point of impact and never fails at the front bulkhead unless that is the last part intact.

Hi Steve can you share current photos of your nose boxes ? Can they be adapted to a VD ? I want to install or build a safer version of the current one supplied by VD.


Thanks
Lenny Tumenas

[S Lathrop]

Hi Steve can you share current photos of your nose boxes ? Can they be adapted to a VD ? I want to install or build a safer version of the current one supplied by VD.


Thanks
Lenny Tumenas

Go to the F2000 web site and look for John LaRue's car. That is a composite nose. I will be using the molds for that nose to make the new part. That nose is 2 separate parts. I am thinking about making that as 4 separate pieces and making a big change in how the parts are are secured to the frame / front bulkhead.

My go to source for nose box ideas is likely to be Indy cars.

[Roux]

This is what is amazing about Apexspeed over the years.
An open forum.
And the designers come on board and talk about improvements for safety.
I've seen emails where Steve and Dave are sharing ideas on how to improve the whole front structure.
The result is that it is better for all.
I'm looking forward to see a stronger attachment mechanism for the nose assembly to the front of the chassis.

I will start a new thread to describe my weekend and the performance of my crush box. I wacked the armco at the top of the esses on cold tires. Crush box did its job. speed was almost certainly WAY lower than what Dave had to deal with

Dave, VERY glad to hear that you are OK. Heal up and show us the way if you please.

[Roux]

Right now I am working on a new nose box design.

The one thing I can say is that any new nose box will have to be removed to have access to the master cylinders and the mounting system will have to be something a lot stronger that what I have done previously. And the design has to be such that it crushes progressively from the point of impact and never fails at the front bulkhead unless that is the last part intact.

I struggled with this same requirement (nose must come off to get to the master cylinders) and came up with something inexpensive, easy to fabricate, and not a pain in the neck to actuate to release the nose. The F1 stuff is not easy to fabricate and it took me a while to come up with something "equivalent" at least in function

More later once I take pictures

Steve

[jcorsico]

On the accident, just before the green flag I got hit in the rear (nose to rear wing mount/quickjack point) and knocked sideways just enough to head me directly into the "Fitch Barriers" at the entrance to the pit lane.

I didn't lose consciousness, but that was definitely the most painful accident I've ever had. I had to sit there for a minute or 2 to take deep breaths and assess whether my feet and legs were seriously damaged. The only semi-serious injury was to my right knee area.

The car needs major repair, and I have a broken tibial plateau. So I'm likely out for the season, plus I am hobbling around on one leg with crutches waiting to see an orthopedic surgeon and get into surgery, so I can't even get anything done around home that needs doing. I'll likely be out of commission for the better part of 2 months. On the bright side, no loss of consciousness, etc., so other than being depressed, mentally I'm fine.

It's obviously a major bummer, since the car was working well, and I am not used to not being self-sufficient.

Hope to be back next season or sooner if all the stars align.

And thanks to all of you for your well-wishes!

When is the SCCA going to start permanently banning people like the driver who hit Dave? How many people like Dave need to be hurt (physically, emotionally and financially) because some yokel driver cannot control himself?

Why does the SCCA cater to these hotheads?

[Bob Wright]

I think you might want to think about your post just now. The event was not SCCA, but USAC sanctioned and it was completely investigated with penalties assessed by experienced stewards. Calling someone a yokel and suggesting a permanent ban when you have no knowledge of the facts is a little unnecessary.

[jcorsico]

I think you might want to think about your post just now. The event was not SCCA, but USAC sanctioned and it was completely investigated with penalties assessed by experienced stewards. Calling someone a yokel and suggesting a permanent ban when you have no knowledge of the facts is a little unnecessary.

Why is there always somebody that rushes to the defense of the yokel? It’s as if we have to protect the most dangerous among us, so those people can continue hurting us!

This driver hit Dave from behind in a rolling start before the green was even thrown. He’s a yokel. People like that do not deserve to be on the track. What if Dave died? Died? He easily could have died.

[Pi_guy]

I think you might want to think about your post just now. The event was not SCCA, but USAC sanctioned and it was completely investigated with penalties assessed by experienced stewards. Calling someone a yokel and suggesting a permanent ban when you have no knowledge of the facts is a little unnecessary.

Remember Bob this is the internet.
So people with no steward experience can make silly clueless statements and try to defend their position.
This is what makes the internet so great

[NPalacioM3]

I think you might want to think about your post just now. The event was not SCCA, but USAC sanctioned and it was completely investigated with penalties assessed by experienced stewards. Calling someone a yokel and suggesting a permanent ban when you have no knowledge of the facts is a little unnecessary.

So Bob, what penalties were assessed from this incident? Not sure why that would be a secret. Indy Car, F1, etc all publicly announce what penalties are issued with an incident like this but I haven't seen a thing from FRP.


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[Bob Wright]

No secret- it is published on our website under competition bulletins. Those involved received a detailed report, the published version is abbreviated.

[NPalacioM3]

No secret- it is published on our website under competition bulletins. Those involved received a detailed report, the published version is abbreviated.

Thanks. Not much of a penalty for the damage/injury in my opinion. I dont see much of a lesson learned from it. My .02. So others don't have to go to the site and find it, copied and pasted below. "No indication of intentional contact or BAD JUDGEMENT"? Really? We must be watching different videos.

"Car #66's impact to the back of car #67 should have been avoided under FRP rule 1.6.17.3 (Avoidable Contact) while at the same time, there is no indication of intentional contact or bad judgement. Car #66 is assessed 15 championship points and loss of prize money."


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[DaveW]

No secret- it is published on our website under competition bulletins. Those involved received a detailed report, the published version is abbreviated.

Here it is:
-----------------------------------------------------------
F2000 Race 2

Car to car contact just prior to the green flag start of Race 2 between Car #66 and Car #67.

FRP Stewards conferred, reviewed witness statements and video evidence.

Car #66's impact to the back of car #67 should have been avoided under FRP rule 1.6.17.3 (Avoidable Contact) while at the same time, there is no indication of intentional contact or bad judgement. Car #66 is assessed 15 championship points and loss of prize money.
----------------------------------------------------------

James Roe (#66) called me. He apologized profusely and sincerely. He did not know why it happened although said he was watching for the green and watching me. My take on this is that he was accelerating with the field and following me very closely. When the car in front of me reduced its acceleration, so did I. James was distracted by watching for the green and didn't react to my reduced acceleration, thus running his nose under my wing bracket and lifting my back wheels off the ground. Whether that is defined as "bad judgement" is a matter of opinion. I think it was poor judgement in following too closely, but it was unintentional. The rest you already know.

So, while I am pissed and depressed that my racing season is over, a lot of work & $ are ahead to fix the car, and I'm banged up, I harbor no hard feelings towards James, and am moving forward with updating/repairing the car for next year. As I've frequently said and believe, I try to understand why someone did what they did so I can see it from their viewpoint. Once I do, it makes it much easier to forgive and move on. Harboring ill feelings does no one any good, including me.

[Bob Wright]

Thanks for posting Dave.

Guys, sometimes it’s “just racing”, or very close to it. See the picture from Thompson Raceway a few years ago...there were no penalties issued and none warranted even though there were cars torn up and possible injury. It’s not chess out there, to quote my friend Mike Rand.

[Wren]

Why is there always somebody that rushes to the defense of the yokel? It’s as if we have to protect the most dangerous among us, so those people can continue hurting us!

This driver hit Dave from behind in a rolling start before the green was even thrown. He’s a yokel. People like that do not deserve to be on the track. What if Dave died? Died? He easily could have died.

Nobody is defending the kid. You just had basically all of the facts wrong.

That said, the punishment seems really light. He was punished for dumbassery in the first race, then goes out and does maybe the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen done on a racetrack and gets a minor punishment. They took points from him in the first race for his dangerous driving. Now they just took a few more points from someone who doesn’t have the talent to compete for the championship anyways. We observed him continuing to block(at least three moves) on the front straight in the second race.
Maybe I would feel differently if he wasn’t out celebrating on social media and bragging about his “Irish rain dance.” For those who don’t know, it took so long to clean up the mess and extricate Dave that rain moved in. Rowe went on to win the race because the front of the field was cautiously driving on slicks in the rain.
I guess it’s better for us if Steve doesn’t get the first place points, but he certainly deserved them. Whatever.


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[Raceworks]

Why is there always somebody that rushes to the defense of the yokel? It’s as if we have to protect the most dangerous among us, so those people can continue hurting us!

This driver hit Dave from behind in a rolling start before the green was even thrown. He’s a yokel. People like that do not deserve to be on the track. What if Dave died? Died? He easily could have died.

No one's defending the yokel, the series owner is defending the decision of the series officials.

Those officials saw the infraction and assessed a penalty. They had access to people who actually saw the incident and it's quite likely there's video of the event (they recommend this highly, and there's few people out there who don't have go-pro's or smartycams in their cars). You have what, exactly?

And again, this series isn't sanctioned by SCCA. Even when it was sanctioned by SCCA Pro racing they've always had their own batch of officials that aren't part of the normal SCCA "chain of bureaucracy."

I'd note that while I've had some disagreements with calls they've made in this series since I started getting involved in 2011, overall FRP is a lot more pro-active when it comes to safety related matters than certain SCCA regions and the level of driver talent is usually above what I've seen show up at SCCA events (even at the Majors / Super Tour level).

[Raceworks]

They took points from him in the first race for his dangerous driving. Now they just took a few more points from someone who doesn’t have the talent to compete for the championship anyways. We observed him continuing to block(at least three moves) on the front straight in the second race.
Maybe I would feel differently if he wasn’t out celebrating on social media and bragging about his “Irish rain dance.”

Sounds like a charming individual. :P

[Steve Bamford]

Dave was he sorry enough to offer to pay for your damages? When it’s clearly the others person fault then I don’t understand why they shouldn’t be liable for the damage they’ve caused. I’ve paid to have people’s cars repaired before when I’ve clearly been the cause. There are also other times I’ve been in accidents where I didn’t but this one is clear cut enough if points & race winnings were taken away it shows fault. Were the race winnings given to Dave to help him with his repairs?

As for the series being tough or not tough enough, I can’t comment on this individual as I don’t know what went on in the other races, but with that said in the past they have told participants they weren’t welcome to race in the series anymore. So they have dealt with people firmly before. Not my place to judge this individual so I’ll leave that up to others.

[DaveW]

Dave was he sorry enough to offer to pay for your damages? When it’s clearly the others person fault then I don’t understand why they shouldn’t be liable for the damage they’ve caused. I’ve paid to have people’s cars repaired before when I’ve clearly been the cause. There are also other times I’ve been in accidents where I didn’t but this one is clear cut enough if points & race winnings were taken away it shows fault. Were the race winnings given to Dave to help him with his repairs?

As for the series being tough or not tough enough, I can’t comment on this individual as I don’t know what went on in the other races, but with that said in the past they have told participants they weren’t welcome to race in the series anymore. So they have dealt with people firmly before. Not my place to judge this individual so I’ll leave that up to others.

Requiring my damages to be paid for, or transferring the penalty $ towards that would be nice, but in my 50 years of racing, AFAIK, that has never been the case, nor, IMO, should it be.

Requiring the "at-fault" driver to pay for the other's expenses would be a direct route to never-ending lawsuits. If the "at-fault" party feels guilty and has the $ to spare, and it makes him/her feel better to help the "injured" party, then there's nothing to prevent that, and I'm sure most recipients of that generosity would happily accept. I've been on both ends of the "fault" spectrum and firmly believe that racing accident expenses MUST be self insured or individually covered through a commercial insurance policy. IMO, anything else would drive most competitors out of racing.

[Steve Bamford]

Requiring my damages to be paid for, or transferring the penalty $ towards that would be nice, but in my 50 years of racing, AFAIK, that has never been the case, nor, IMO, should it be.

Requiring the "at-fault" driver to pay for the other's expenses would be a direct route to never-ending lawsuits. If the "at-fault" party feels guilty and has the $ to spare, and it makes him/her feel better to help the "injured" party, then there's nothing to prevent that, and I'm sure most recipients of that generosity would happily accept. I've been on both ends of the "fault" spectrum and firmly believe that racing accident expenses MUST be self insured or individually covered through a commercial insurance policy. IMO, anything else would drive most competitors out of racing.

While I agree that this may cause people to exit the sport, how about the ones who are constantly repairing their car due to someone else’s fault, how many of them never return. Two ways to look at it & I do see your point.

Juat glad you’re ok in the end. Really that is the most important thing of all. The rest is just a little bit of noise.

[DaveW]

While I agree that this may cause people to exit the sport, how about the ones who are constantly repairing their car due to someone else’s fault, how many of them never return. Two ways to look at it & I do see your point.

Just glad you’re ok in the end. Really that is the most important thing of all. The rest is just a little bit of noise.

Certainly I understand what you are saying. But it has to be handled by penalties or exclusions from racing. It's a hard balance to achieve - too draconian, or too lenient. In the end, someone will always be unhappy with the decision, and the stewards receive most of the blame, warranted or not. That's why you will almost never see me publicly complaining. I understand their plight.

And thanks to you and everyone else for your good wishes! I'm making progress, just very frustrated that I can't do much on 1.2 legs with crutches. Good thing there are friends that are helping me out. It's still slow, but we'll get there.

[DaveW]

Today a friend and I got the car stripped to the bare frame, so we're on our way to starting the repair and front-structure/front-suspension upgrade project.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Today a friend and I got the car stripped to the bare frame, so we're on our way to starting the repair and front-structure/front-suspension upgrade project.

Is that going to be an upgrade to the current state or to the previous?

You know you'll need to start a rebuild thread so we can all learn.

[DaveW]

Is that going to be an upgrade to the current state or to the previous?

You know you'll need to start a rebuild thread so we can all learn.

Planned is new front-end frame design and geometry for better front grip and increased safety, plus the crush-box redesign discussed in this thread. New front bodywork will be part of it. A new bellypan may be done if necessary. There will also be other smaller improvements along the way.

[jcorsico]

Guys, sometimes it’s “just racing”, or very close to it.

It's just racing when one car hits another car on the pace lap? Seriously?

[xmazdatracy]

X2 for a DaveW build thread. Just imagine the amount of information us apexers could amass! If you don’t have a smart phone I could send you my GoPro?

[DaveW]

X2 for a DaveW build thread. Just imagine the amount of information us apexers could amass! If you don’t have a smart phone I could send you my GoPro?

Steve L and I will probably post significant stuff as it progresses, but I don't plan a "build thread." It's just not my style, and to be honest, I don't believe posting every detail of this work would do anyone much good.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Steve L and I will probably post significant stuff as it progresses, but I don't plan a "build thread." It's just not my style, and to be honest, I don't believe posting every detail of this work would do anyone much good.

That gets a half-like

While the exact details of your car/work may not translate to another, it's the thought processes and solutions on your car that can help us solve a similar or totally different issue on our car.

Know that whatever you decide to post will be devoured and appreciated.

[mark defer]

It's just racing when one car hits another car on the pace lap? Seriously?

Yes seriously. I can think of several scenarios that could result in a "just racing" coming together of 2 cars. There could be a mechanical failure causing a car to move abruptly in one direction. A car could hit a slick spot on the track and lose control. I've seen top national drivers spin on the pace lap in the dry, while on pole. As cars speed up in anticipation of the green if one car bogs during acceleration the resulting chain reaction could cause all kinds of contact. Missed shift...same deal. It happens and Dave knows this. BTW, hi Dave, glad you're okay. Say hi to your lovely bride for me.

[DaveW]

Thanks, Mark. I'll tell Sherrie you said Hi.