Speed Sport Disk Brake Package

[BLS]

If the pedal pressures are too high then change the master cylinder size or change the brake pedal ratio. Master cyl change is easier imo

Of course, as I'm certain you know, there are tradeoffs. If we increase the resultant force through master cylinder size or pedal length we get more travel, and on a drum brake system we already have a fair amount of travel. It takes a lot of effort to minimize travel and maximize brake function on the drums. I don't believe anyone thinks Mr. Varacins hasn't optimized his drum brakes and look at the effort required. For the taller FV driver, where every inch of space counts, excessive pedal travel is a killer.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Of course, as I'm certain you know, there are tradeoffs. If we increase the resultant force through master cylinder size or pedal length we get more travel, and on a drum brake system we already have a fair amount of travel. It takes a lot of effort to minimize travel and maximize brake function on the drums. I don't believe anyone thinks Mr. Varacins hasn't optimized his drum brakes and look at the effort required. For the taller FV driver, where every inch of space counts, excessive pedal travel is a killer.

Truer words have never been spoken.......

[Matt Clark]

Michael,
Out of curiosity, could you maybe elaborate on what you and/or your dad had sent in to SCCA? After hearing about the July Fastrack "16.5 lb. assembly" addition to the brake disc rule, I was just going thru the updates & trying to see what the status of everything is now.

September 2018 Prelims:
2. #24935 (Alan Varacins/SpeedSportEngineering) Discussion Points About Minimum Weight for Disc Brakes
Thank you for your letter, the CRB does not recommend this change.

[Hardingfv32]

Alan Varacins thought the 16.5 lb limit was too high and provided data to support his belief.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Alan Varacins thought the 16.5 lb limit was too high and provided data to support his belief.

Brian

I am now really interested to see what was presented then. I know what a "stock" drum setup weighs (our scale shows 17.99 lbs for the entire drum brake assy), but I know guys shave drums & such to lighten them. Would be great to hear what a top National-level job falls in at.
That goes back to what I said months ago, when I brought up that discs will further level the playing field between the guys that go crazy on maximizing drum brake prep vs. normal users.

[Hardingfv32]

I personally have measured closer to 17.0 lb. with new (unturned) drums. Sturds and/or lug nuts can make a difference worth noting.

I agree that it will take a lot less work to have very competitive brake system... once the disc system is installed.

Brian

[nhJohn]

Formula Vee racing is already the cheapest source of Formula car racing out there. If this is a problem for you running in an SCCA major then vintage or Challenge Cup would be a better option. Or should I even say karting. A lot of people including myself, who want to run out front at the runoffs, will spend top dollar to maximize the car. We are always looking for the best ways to get the most out our of cars and will usually spend whatever it takes to get that perforce advantage. I do not know what Mike has decided on the price of these brake packages will be but I'm sure they will be a plotless expensive than any other formula class. Vee racing is the most affordable competitive racing out there and I do not think there should be an arguments that it is too expensive because it is not.

Been following this thread, late at night, but I have to respond. Graham, I would like to respectevily disagree with some of your "assumptions".

"Formula Vee racing is already the cheapest source of Formula car racing out there"

We agree here , but we have HAVE to be diligent to keep it that way. SCCA numbers in MOST of the classes are NOT growing. Our average age is getting much older. The available pool of competitors, after college, marriage, house, kids is getting tougher for the ""left over available funds" to go racing.

"If this is a problem for you running in an SCCA major then vintage or Challenge Cup would be a better option."
Totally disagree. If we all start going (us Vee competitors) in that direction, then YOU won't have a class in the majors. A lot of us disagree with the direction SCCA has / is currently taking. The Majors has turned into an a way to exclude competitors because of cost $$$.


Or should I even say karting
Okay, sorry, you missed this one. I started karting at the age of 7. After 40 years, I held a position similar to the CRB (WKA National). We ran Nationally for 20 years. Racing my Vee costs me 50% less. And our karting budget, was MUCH less than most.

A lot of people including myself, who want to run out front at the runoffs, will spend top dollar to maximize the car. We are always looking for the best ways to get the most out our of cars and will usually spend whatever it takes to get that perforce advantage.
That I DO UNDERSTAND. But this "only the majors guys will buy disk brakes" Is just not true. A good Vee can be bought for $6k to $8K. We have a lot of karters coming from karts to Vee's. How do I now sell, my drum brake Vee, to a potential Vee buyer, who is also looking at a Vee with disk brakes. So we have added the entry cost of a Vee, $1000 for a manifold, $1000 for those pretty red Penske shocks, and another $xx.?? for disk brakes.

I do not know what Mike has decided on the price of these brake packages will be but I'm sure they will be a lot less expensive than any other formula class.

Part A, A lot of us do NOT understand, why SCCA approved a part - without knowing the price. Sorry SCCA management, that is a blatant disregard for the class and it's supporters.
Part B, " a lot less expensive than any other formula class. "
Is NOT relevant. This is NOT any other formula class. You just stated WHY we have the Vee class. It is NOT like any other formula class.

And your last sentence, I do agree. Vee is the least expensive. But you need to keep that or the so finite "dollar of entry" in check. A lot of us feel a continuous level of cost creep.
This may help. Karting in the US, was at one time THEY largest form of motorsports. In the 80's I could expect 75 to 100 competitors in my class. We had "rationals", like SCCA. But then we went to a 16 race National (Majors style). And that hurt entries at Regional levels. So, entry fees went up. And then technology and costs starting rising. Having three (3) $4,000 motors in the trailer was the norm, that needed a rebuild after ONE weekend. And the National board made ONLY classes for those engines legal for National AND Regional classes. What happened. It is now an east of the Mississippi sport with 6 major events. I have seen this story before.
Respectfully,
John Ferreira

[Hardingfv32]

...A lot of us do NOT understand, why SCCA approved a part - without knowing the price. Sorry SCCA management, that is a blatant disregard for the class and it's supporters.

Generally speaking the cost of the disc systems were hard to estimate because of the unknown difficulty of the installation. You also have the issue of unknown production volume as the change is not manditory.

The conversion to discs is not mandatory and in all probability not required to be comptitive.

Competitor made the decision to allow discs not SCCA management. The fact is a lot of current FV competitors simply will resist any form of modernization of the class. Management of this class is a political process with these differing view points.

Brian

[GrahamLoughead35]

Been following this thread, late at night, but I have to respond. Graham, I would like to respectevily disagree with some of your "assumptions".

"Formula Vee racing is already the cheapest source of Formula car racing out there"

We agree here , but we have HAVE to be diligent to keep it that way. SCCA numbers in MOST of the classes are NOT growing. Our average age is getting much older. The available pool of competitors, after college, marriage, house, kids is getting tougher for the ""left over available funds" to go racing.

"If this is a problem for you running in an SCCA major then vintage or Challenge Cup would be a better option."
Totally disagree. If we all start going (us Vee competitors) in that direction, then YOU won't have a class in the majors. A lot of us disagree with the direction SCCA has / is currently taking. The Majors has turned into an a way to exclude competitors because of cost $$$.


Or should I even say karting
Okay, sorry, you missed this one. I started karting at the age of 7. After 40 years, I held a position similar to the CRB (WKA National). We ran Nationally for 20 years. Racing my Vee costs me 50% less. And our karting budget, was MUCH less than most.

A lot of people including myself, who want to run out front at the runoffs, will spend top dollar to maximize the car. We are always looking for the best ways to get the most out our of cars and will usually spend whatever it takes to get that perforce advantage.
That I DO UNDERSTAND. But this "only the majors guys will buy disk brakes" Is just not true. A good Vee can be bought for $6k to $8K. We have a lot of karters coming from karts to Vee's. How do I now sell, my drum brake Vee, to a potential Vee buyer, who is also looking at a Vee with disk brakes. So we have added the entry cost of a Vee, $1000 for a manifold, $1000 for those pretty red Penske shocks, and another $xx.?? for disk brakes.

I do not know what Mike has decided on the price of these brake packages will be but I'm sure they will be a lot less expensive than any other formula class.

Part A, A lot of us do NOT understand, why SCCA approved a part - without knowing the price. Sorry SCCA management, that is a blatant disregard for the class and it's supporters.
Part B, " a lot less expensive than any other formula class. "
Is NOT relevant. This is NOT any other formula class. You just stated WHY we have the Vee class. It is NOT like any other formula class.

And your last sentence, I do agree. Vee is the least expensive. But you need to keep that or the so finite "dollar of entry" in check. A lot of us feel a continuous level of cost creep.
This may help. Karting in the US, was at one time THEY largest form of motorsports. In the 80's I could expect 75 to 100 competitors in my class. We had "rationals", like SCCA. But then we went to a 16 race National (Majors style). And that hurt entries at Regional levels. So, entry fees went up. And then technology and costs starting rising. Having three (3) $4,000 motors in the trailer was the norm, that needed a rebuild after ONE weekend. And the National board made ONLY classes for those engines legal for National AND Regional classes. What happened. It is now an east of the Mississippi sport with 6 major events. I have seen this story before.
Respectfully,
John Ferreira

I was to respectfully clarify my points.

First off I never mentioned the entry fees. I also agree that the fees are way too high. $1000 for the Runoffs is crazy and $500 for a regional is absolutely crazy. However this thread is about DISC BRAKES not entry fees.

Yes the current class probably has an average age of somewhere in the 40's. However there are young men in the class in their teens and 20's, including myself, Jennerjahn, and Abbott's to name a few in the Northern Conference.

I mention the Challenge Cup and vintage because those are ways to not have as competitive of a car or not buy all of the top of the line equipment and still have a chance to win. I never mentioned that everyone should hop over. I mentioned this as another option for drivers not willing to spend top dollar for performance upgrades. I also agree that SCCA is in it to make money and does not care about a lot of their classes, but I never did I say nor do I support the decisions being made to make it so expensive to put your car on the track. Again this thread and my original post was about spending money on PERFORMANCE UPGRADES.

Karting. I still stand behind by statement. It is thousands of dollars cheaper than running a Vee. The entry fee for our series was $45. I'm sure that bounces around between series and race, but this was my example. We also ran top of the line. We bought a complete full set up including chassis, engine, stand, wheels, tires, tire mounter, etc. for $7,500. That's the cost of a National, Runoffs winning engine. Engine rebuilds are cheaper. Tires are cheaper. Everything is cheaper.

"only the majors guys will buy disk brakes" This was no where in my original post, but I will still comment on it. I believe there will be several people Majors and Non-majors guys that will buy them. There are a lot more convenient than a brake drum. Plain and simple. I believe we will not see them on every car until maybe another 3-5 years depending on if there seems to be a need for them.

Never meant this conversation to be about entry fees, strictly spending money on performance upgrades.

With Respect,

Graham Loughead

[Hardingfv32]

...there are young men in the class in their teens and 20's, including myself, Jennerjahn, and Abbott's....

...I also agree that SCCA is in it to make money and does not care about a lot of their classes, but I never did I say nor do I support the decisions being made to make it so expensive to put your car on the track.

Graham Loughead

1) You do appreciate that the young men you mention are associated with fathers who have raced and are, up to this point, footing the bills. This is actually the case for a high percentage of younger drivers in FV.

2) SCCA is a club. The membership associated with Club Racing control the rule sets associated with their respective class. The majority generally get what they ask for as far as rules.

Note: Expense/cost is not the primary point of interest, but one of many considerations when formulating the FV rule set. For the most 'active' competitors (Majors?), it would be my opinion that car costs is a very low concern. I appreciate that will not be the case for Regional competitors. So it then becomes a political compromise about how the rule set is formulated.

Brian

[GrahamLoughead35]

1) You do appreciate that the young men you mention are associated with fathers who have raced and are, up to this point, footing the bills. This is actually the case for a high percentage of younger drivers in FV.

Yes, some of that is true. I am fortunate enough to race regionals in a national championship winning Vee. But when I get out of college, my father is not going to pay for me to have fun. Anyone who knows my dad knows he would never pay for me when I will have a full time job.

And even so would this make the young guys opinions invalid when we will be the people in the class in 10-15 years time.

With Respect,

Graham

[Terry Abbott]

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
1) You do appreciate that the young men you mention are associated with fathers who have raced and are, up to this point, footing the bills. This is actually the case for a high percentage of younger drivers in FV.





Yes, some of that is true. I am fortunate enough to race regionals in a national championship winning Vee. But when I get out of college, my father is not going to pay for me to have fun. Anyone who knows my dad knows he would never pay for me when I will have a full time job.

And even so would this make the young guys opinions invalid when we will be the people in the class in 10-15 years time.

With Respect,

Graham


With all respect Brian,

We could not be running at the pointy end without 100% commitment by all Three of us supporting our Racing budget, , plain and simple. We are a Racing Family and enjoy the Hell out it.

I can tell you we are here for the long run!

Speed Sport has a Nice Disc Package !

[2Dogs]

When will these be available for purchase and who do I contact?

Attached are a few photos of the brake package we are working on putting together. Still working out some details so there will be more to follow.

[Hardingfv32]

Al Varacins is producing them. I know he will be making deliveries at the Runoffs, so they should be available soon. A deposit might be necessary.

avaracins@wi.rr.com

PM me for a phone number if he does not respond to your email.

Brian

[veeten]

This package may not fit on Challenge Cups wheels,
The Disc System for C/C wheels has been tested and
may be available now through Ray Carmody.

[Terry Abbott]

This package may not fit on Challenge Cups wheels,
The Disc System for C/C wheels has been tested and
may be available now through Ray Carmody.

and were splitting up FV's again, All you C.C guys new this was coming from SCCA, and i do understand C.C. guys didnt want to wait but really how many C.C. guys have a disk package?

keep driving that wedge........as of now its tires and wheels and people can switch over to go and check it out,

[Hardingfv32]

This package may not fit on Challenge Cups wheels...

This is correct. CC uses 14" rims and the Varacins system (SCCA FV) is a very tight fit with 15" rims.

Funny how a sound decision by CC, 14" rims/street tires, makes for a complicated brake disc choice. A good example of why our rule set gets so complicated. Backward compatility is not always easy to achieve and/or maintain.

Brian

[grapefarmeral]

No one is driving a wedge...except SCCA... Disk drake talk has been around for years and all the majors guys said they didn't want it. The Challenge Cup made the decision to go to disk brakes and I believe SCCA called Ray and asked all about the CC package... Wouldn't it be interesting if SCCA is curious about the CC wheel package and alows them to run in SCCA events... making the SCCA disks unusuable.. remember this is the SCCA anything can happen...

[problemchild]

.. remember this is the SCCA anything can happen...

Yes, it takes a debatable, and relatively insignificant, topic to capture SCCA's interest, after totally ignoring the other cost-saving qualities of CC, such as the wheel/tire concept first developed in 1980. How many extra million dollars have FV racers spent on tires and wheels over the last 38 years? Without the last 35 years of open tires, and the dark years of Harding's manifold controversy, FV could be a very different class today, perhaps attracting the entry numbers of SM and SRF.

[Hardingfv32]

No one is driving a wedge...except SCCA...

This sounds like the inaccurate (ignorant of the facts) political dribble that we find coming out of Washington.

Do you have any idea who in SCCA's administration who would take a direct interest in FV? Certainly no one on the Board or the CRB and its sub-committees. Almost everything pertaining to a class comes from the membership.

The fact is that the CC and SCCA disc brake packages started in isolation of each other. The CC disc package requires a wider track which was never going to satisfy the backward compatibility politically required to get acceptance for the SCCA disc package from the membership.

The FV spec tire debate clearly indicated that the majority of the membership were not interested in street tires regardless of the potential cost savings. Cost is not always the main criteria. I would say 35 years ago the membership choose performance over cost when it came to FV tires. I am not sure you can question that choice at this time without knowledge about the economics of that time period.

I strongly disagree that 'Harding's manifold controversy' were dark days. I found them to be a very creative time.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Do you have any idea who in SCCA's administration who would take a direct interest in FV? Certainly no one on the Board or the CRB and its sub-committees. Almost everything pertaining to a class comes from the membership.

I think Al is closer than some may want to admit on this, and I have said so several times & places before.
It comes down to a "first to market" scenario. Whoever got disc brakes on cars & in use first kinda dictates who sets precedent & future specs. Odd how the SCCA package literally came unannounced out of nowhere (yes, they had been brought up, but no one had ANYTHING to show for it), but simply said "caliper must be X weight" (and they just recently started adding more to the rule). Zero info on where to get them or sourcing, zero design info, etc. This was after we had parts in hand & showed them.

The fact is that the CC and SCCA disc brake packages started in isolation of each other. The CC disc package requires a wider track which was never going to satisfy the backward compatibility politically required to get acceptance for the SCCA disc package from the membership.

And we have been over this already & beaten it to death. Until you have the parts we do, stop spreading false information.

[problemchild]

I strongly disagree that 'Harding's manifold controversy' were dark days. I found them to be a very creative time.

Brian

It's all about the 1%.

In order for someone to divide a group by driving in a wedge, there would need to be some level of initial unity.

[Hardingfv32]

I think Al is closer than some may want to admit on this...

Absolutely no secret that it was Al Varacins request for disc brakes. Also nothing unusual about the administrative steps that were followed to get the disc brake package passed. There was never anything available from any supplier that met no track change requirement. This SCCA FV system has to be custom made. You can use retail calipers, pads and discs. I can source them for you. The hubs and mounting brackets are special for our application.

This class has generally never specified specific parts for such a large system as a disc brake conversion. In this case there is nothing available to meet the requirements. This is not CC, where someone does all the work for you.

IF you are not up this type of change, then do not do it. It is not required.

I can substantiate any design fact about either disc system. I have never spread false information on this subject.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Absolutely no secret that it was Al Varacins request for disc brakes.

Just for clarity... I was referring Al Spadin (grapefarmeral) in my message, not Al Varacins.

I can substantiate any design fact about either disc system. I have never spread false information on this subject.

Aaaaand this is where you veer off track. You keep speaking of the FVCC brakes, yet have zero correct info. You cannot substantiate any design fact. You are basing your assumptions from other "off the shelf" kits.
From what I understand, you even called Ray about them... yet you keep saying the set we have doesn't meet the rules. Stop.

[Hardingfv32]

Are you aware that the standard CC car tracks (front & rear) are greater than those set by the SCCA GCR for FV?

So you could very well have a CC disc system that works with the CC rule set but not the SCCA rule set.

I can assure you that any 'multi piston caliper' disc system that works with 14" rims is not going to fit on a std track SCCA FV. We can barely get it done with 15" rims.

I doubt very much anyone in CC is going to produce their own disc system when there are reasonably priced retail systems available. You guys are all about reasonable costs, correct? ALL the 'multi piston caliper' retail disc conversions increase the std tracks...FACT.

So how many CC cars have 4 wheel disc systems at this point in the season? I am going to guess none.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

and were splitting up FV's again, All you C.C guys new this was coming from SCCA, and i do understand C.C. guys didnt want to wait but really how many C.C. guys have a disk package?

keep driving that wedge........as of now its tires and wheels and people can switch over to go and check it out,

I missed this earlier...
But to answer this, FVCC was in fact first. Yes, there was talk of SCCA discs for forever now. I have heard those rumblings since I started over 10 years ago, but we were all told that was dead & not going to happen. We were doing our work independently (and for an inexpensive & drum-equal package) for that very reason. As soon as FVCC had something & started being public with it, suddenly SCCA came out with a rushed announcement for theirs. Plain & simple. As stated above, WE are not the ones causing the wedge.

Are you aware that the standard CC car tracks (front & rear) are greater than those set by the SCCA GCR for FV?

So you could very well have a CC disc system that works with the CC rule set but not the SCCA rule set.

I can assure you that any 'multi piston caliper' disc system that works with 14" rims is not going to fit on a std track SCCA FV. We can barely get it done with 15" rims.

I officially give up.

I do not know how many times I have to say it. Or for other people to say it. Ray measured. It meets SCCA track width. FVCC did not modify any rules except for wheels & tires.

It was not whatever parts you had or measured.

Yes, 14" wheel was harder to deal with. Our stuff is smaller than the Varacins package.

I can assure you that we are ok. Ray is running them at the Glen in 2 weeks.

So how many CC cars have 4 wheel disc systems at this point in the season? I am going to guess none.

To answer this, however... the answer is none. As I have explained in the other thread, we decided to focus on just fronts this year, rears have not been addressed yet. Who knows what we do now that SCCA is in the mix.




I'm done. I'm out. I can only say the exact same things so many times & so many ways.

[Terry Abbott]

[QUOTE=Matt Clark;567989]I missed this earlier...
But to answer this, FVCC was in fact first. Yes, there was talk of SCCA discs for forever now. I have heard those rumblings since I started over 10 years ago, but we were all told that was dead & not going to happen. We were doing our work independently (and for an inexpensive & drum-equal package) for that very reason. As soon as FVCC had something & started being public with it, suddenly SCCA came out with a rushed announcement for theirs. Plain & simple. As stated above, WE are not the ones causing the wedge.



Hey Matt,

your right about all the talk for years, I've been doing this for a loooong time, just to keep it Straight SCCA did Not rush this out it was membership driven.

[nhJohn]

[QUOTE=Terry Abbott;568001][QUOTE=Matt Clark;567989 <snip>

Hey Matt,

your right about all the talk for years, I've been doing this for a loooong time, just to keep it Straight SCCA did Not rush this out it was membership driven.[/QUOTE]

Just curious - does anyone have the results of the SCCA survey regarding this topic??
Thanks
John

[Hardingfv32]

Ray is running them at the Glen in 2 weeks.

Well for a group that had such a big jump on this process you are a little late to the finish line. Front only disc package, how is that working out? 10-20 SCCA FVs will have Varacins package (four wheel discs) ready for the start of the 2019 season.

I am not sure that a survey was done or even required. The normal rule change process was followed. Member request, CRB review & member notification for opinion, and then Board approval. Disc brakes are not a required change so it is not a major class change that everyone must accommodate. If you provide a the CRB with a well thought out request and have your politics in order, your chances of success are very good.

Brian

[Amon]

Well for a group that had such a big jump on this process you are a little late to the finish line. Front only disc package, how is that working out? 10-20 SCCA FVs will have Varacins package (four wheel discs) ready for the start of the 2019 season.

I am not sure that a survey was done or even required. The normal rule change process was followed. Member request, CRB review & member notification for opinion, and then Board approval. Disc brakes are not a required change so it is not a major class change that everyone must accommodate. If you provide a the CRB with a well thought out request and have your politics in order, your chances of success are very good.

Brian

It's been mentioned several times that you're NOT required to use the discs in either the SCCA Majors series or FVCC....If you don't want to go to the expense of converting, then don't and continue with the drums etc...…………………..

[jpetillo]

[QUOTE=Terry Abbott;568001]

I missed this earlier...
But to answer this, FVCC was in fact first. Yes, there was talk of SCCA discs for forever now. I have heard those rumblings since I started over 10 years ago, but we were all told that was dead & not going to happen. We were doing our work independently (and for an inexpensive & drum-equal package) for that very reason. As soon as FVCC had something & started being public with it, suddenly SCCA came out with a rushed announcement for theirs. Plain & simple. As stated above, WE are not the ones causing the wedge.



Hey Matt,

your right about all the talk for years, I've been doing this for a loooong time, just to keep it Straight SCCA did Not rush this out it was membership driven.

It's been interesting reading the latest postings, let me try to help. Terry is correct here. Yes, there were several focus-group surveys and many, many discussions and e-mails with folks in different areas and with different FV knowledge over a good number of months regarding the issue of disc brakes in FV. That helped guide the process, which eventually led to the rule development that also took a good number of months more, then finally the recommendation letter to the CRB for consideration at their next meeting. This was well before the SCCA made the announcement. There is nothing sudden to the process in the SCCA. I can also tell you that it was hardly rushed - in fact quite the opposite. It's the process we use, and it is what it is.

The timing for recommendations for significant rules changes like this is dictated by when the SCCA needs a determination be in place for the next racing year. I can tell you that the CRB did not get a recommendation a day earlier than that time.

Saying that the two groups did their work independently is quite accurate in my opinion. John