Only 5 CF/ FF at Summit point?

[BorkRacing]

Woah! Not to hijack a post but, hey, this is a Bombshell! Scott Fairchild is going Pro!? How did this story get past Racer magazine? Scott, do you have a manager? Don't sign anything without having your personal attorney and manager negotiate the deal. My fees are very reasonable.

Yes but Hoosier is sponsoring and he has to run treaded tires!

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Hi Guys,

Why don't we write about celebrating the resurgence of open wheel small bore racing on the East Coast after the geniuses at SCCA all but wiped it out?

Between Andy's Formula Race Car Club of America, Joe & Mike's Right Coast group, VRG's Royale Challenge Series and Bob's Pro F1600 we are capable of putting out over 100 cars of a weekend on the East Coast. Royale Challenge alone has 50 cars at Summit next month. Compare this to what it looked like for everybody 3 or 4 years ago.

This is a new era - you can race with slicks, with treads, with a Ford, with a Honda, you can race Historic, Club, Tweeners, Modern, take you pick, there is a group for you. If you really want you can still join the other 3 or 4 who run with wings and things at SCCA! Heck, if we added in Bob's F2000 group and perhaps the S2 group we might have enough cars to put on our own pure race car event as an annual celebration!! Its a long way from so many cars parked up 3 years ago.

Its the result of a lot of hard work by about a dozen people on the East Coast (for disclosure, I am one of the 12) and we all get our enjoyment from seeing this all work and the cars where they should be - on the track with lots of people having lots of fun.

Let's all enjoy the moment we have created.

BB

[Christopher Shoemaker]

BB ...

No doubt on the resurgence, and a lot of kudos to all who support FF. I think we all agree that SCCA has killed Open Wheel in general but more specifically FF. While I commend the F1600 guys for keeping pro level competition alive, IMHO it will be shorty lived due to cost and F4 efforts. Kudos to FRCCA for what they did for CF and even Monoposto for HF models.

This thread I believe was started to discuss FFord and it's survival as a stand alone entity for future years. Much if not all growth in this area can be directly attributed to RFFCS. Yes we have stolen from various groups, but many are first timers who are learning the value of what these car mean. To be effective, you need cars and no offense 17 (both FFit and FFord) is not enough to rally sanctioning entities to let you run; unless they mix you in.

Scott is trying to rally more competition within RFFCS, so he asked? I claimed tires as the reason, Scott says the difference is negligible and should not be the deterrent, I agree and expanded ... of course the haters, hate the argument.

Yet to date, none have answered the direct question? Why?

Imagine a FF group with standard rules on the East Coast! That's my vision .... And based on the estimated turnout of 50+ cars at Summit Point, 32 at VIR, 40+ last year Watkin Glen the model is working and no other group is seeing this growth.

Is it not fair to ask? Why race with 6 guys or 9 or 17 .... When we be 40+ every weekend and make our own path in the East Coast; potentially even helping F1600 pro series; with combo events etc.... What does it take? An idea? Spec Tire? Competition? Organizers to gather and discuss?


Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing

Founder, VRG / RFFCS

Hi Guys,

Why don't we write about celebrating the resurgence of open wheel small bore racing on the East Coast after the geniuses at SCCA all but wiped it out?

Between Andy's Formula Race Car Club of America, Joe & Mike's Right Coast group, VRG's Royale Challenge Series and Bob's Pro F1600 we are capable of putting out over 100 cars of a weekend on the East Coast. Royale Challenge alone has 50 cars at Summit next month. Compare this to what it looked like for everybody 3 or 4 years ago.

This is a new era - you can race with slicks, with treads, with a Ford, with a Honda, you can race Historic, Club, Tweeners, Modern, take you pick, there is a group for you. If you really want you can still join the other 3 or 4 who run with wings and things at SCCA! Heck, if we added in Bob's F2000 group and perhaps the S2 group we might have enough cars to put on our own pure race car event as an annual celebration!! Its a long way from so many cars parked up 3 years ago.

Its the result of a lot of hard work by about a dozen people on the East Coast (for disclosure, I am one of the 12) and we all get our enjoyment from seeing this all work and the cars where they should be - on the track with lots of people having lots of fun.

Let's all enjoy the moment we have created.

BB

[stonebridge20]

I have always believed that if you preface a statement with "no offense but" your pretty much guaranteed to offend someone.

Maybe that's just me?

[marshall9]

I'm still debating on truly responding to everything you say because you, and others in this thread almost irrefutably have ulterior motives. None of these posts meant negatively, yet at any possible hint (mind you text is one of the worst forms of communication) you see, you immediately jump on the thread, then stoop low enough and say what you said. Forget the apology since you don't even mean it. You saw a chance to contort a conversation of "Just for fun" and you're trying to turn it into a hateful debate & argument.

Take a look at this:
2121 users online. 260 members and 1861 guests

I want you to stare at that. Now understand the importance. When you take "Just for fun" threads, and try to apply about as much negativity as one possibly could in a couple posts, what part of you realizes that there are THAT many guests.... and so few members....

If the light bulb hasn't come on yet, I'm saying, who would want to be a Member of this site, when a thread "For fun" can't even make it 3 days!!!! Please tell me you see that reality.

To end this, I ask you respond to me personally regarding what I've said, as this has now moved on to between you and I.




Marshall. You've been here a long time. So, I will make this crystal clear to you. Do not ever, take a quote from something I say, and modify it so it looks to provoke some type argument, or modify it at all.

Below is what I really said. All FF (Within the same quote, I'm referring to the WDCR Region!!!). There is no argument to be had, so stop trying to make one. There is no way to misinterpret what I said, with a thread that talks about the WDCR Region in the first place!!











Scott I'd reply to this, talk about some stories, Compare speeds and times ask some questions out of curiosity, I really really would love to, but damn, after all this, should I even bother? Woulda been nice, maybe to avoid all they political B.s. we'll P.M. sometime.

Because I can't avoid saying it............... I cannot wait to race at VIR!! haha

Lol. You're a funny guy ordering me what to do and not do. Have fun. Just so I can make the right decisions regarding what I say in here, what are the consequences for disobeying you?

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Chris,

Perhaps I misunderstood the change of tone from what I believe was Scott having some fun.

RFFCS set out with a clear vision of how to bring Formula Ford Racing back to life and get those garage queens back on the track. We apparently hit an untapped need and have to date succeeded beyond our expectations. We have had people buy Fords to run with us and of the 50 entries at Summit next month, have16 new to The Jefferson 500. Coincidentally when we started, Hoosier were looking at getting into the treaded Ford tire business and with Bruce Foss and you driving, we made a great mutually beneficial relationship that has been a significant factor in bringing folks out - fast reliable tire that's nice to drive, with long life and virtually no drop off, at a price people could afford. It was a turnaround in tire cost and leveled the playing field. We set out to cater for a particular type of racer and found there were more out there than we anticipated.

As you know we had a relationship with Right Coast that did not move forward, though remains cordial (I trust!) and we have a relationship with FRCCA which we hope will be mutually beneficial.

All that said, from discussions with Joe and Mike at Right Coast, with Andy a FRCCA and among racers on Apexspeed it is clear that other racers want a different model to that we provide. Slicks and Hondas being 2 demonstrably critical needs that have been made clear by a number of racers. RFFCS cannot be all things to all men. Hondas are an issue for RFFCS- as you will recall from an Apexspeed thread that caused all sorts of angst a couple of years ago, but there are Hondas out there that need somewhere to race and that need is being satisfied. RFFCS success on the tire front is a choice we made and people have voted with their pocket books to Hoosier - and entries. But there remain a significant number of racers who only want to race on slicks, and that is there choice. Do we think our model is better - yes, but are they entitled to to a different view - yes. Different strokes for different folks.

I understand your vision and its laudable - and one of your greatest strengths, I had hoped we would all get there eventually to build open wheel club racing back into a powerhouse. In reality, each of the managers of the groups think they do something better than the other guys and each is proud of his group, so getting them all together under one umbrella is unlikely. In any event the different running rules would not allow amalgamation - the tread guys would have conniptions if they thought they would have to run against Spectrum Hondas' on slicks, and rightly so, we have a great model that's working just fine, why screw around with it.

So if we were all to work together it would be to have different run groups at the same meeting. The problem there is that the sanctioning body needs full grids to pay for the tracks. So we would need a full grid of RFFCS and a full grid of others. At a number of VRG meetings this would be welcome - for example, The Glen is very expensive and we have to share to make it viable, our new Pitt-Race date in September may benefit from an additional run group/grid of open wheel and possibly New Jersey would have room. But as you know, we have not been able to persuade the other guys to join us in the numbers we need for a separate grid. Its a shame, VRG is a welcoming club in the manner SCCA should have been, and is deserving of support, but in the end, each group has to do what it feels is in its own best interest.

My suggestion is that we go on our way doing what we are doing, developing our offering, looking after our constituents - seems to be going OK at present, and if the other guys see any benefit in looking ahead together, then always be open to and welcome dialogue.

Apparently even The USA and North Korea have gotten there so who knows? (and before that remark gets misconstrued, which happens so often on Apexspeed, be clear that in no way am I likening you to The Donald and Rand to Kim Jong Un - though both are known to go nuclear occasionally!)

Keep fighting the fight

Best

BB (founding member RFFCS team)

[sevenselans]

John Lydgate of Bury (c. 1370 – c. 1451)

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”

[EricP]

“Heck, if we added in Bob's F2000 group and perhaps the S2 group we might have enough cars to put on our own pure race car event as an annual celebration!! Its a long way from so many cars parked up 3 years ago”

Yes please! I wish FC/F2000 could tag along with FF more. Couldn’t it be mutually beneficial?

[Purple Frog]

Those of you trying to rent tracks to promote your favorite run group should always communicate with the folks at the
V8 Road Racing Series. OBTW they are already scheduled for 2018.
They are only a "customer" to SCCA, and their management will consider sharing dates and track time.
You get a few different groups to share track rental, and soon you can have your own weekend.
.... of course you might incur some staffing issues.

As always, YMMV

[BorkRacing]

Chris,

Perhaps I misunderstood the change of tone from what I believe was Scott having some fun.

RFFCS set out with a clear vision of how to bring Formula Ford Racing back to life and get those garage queens back on the track. We apparently hit an untapped need and have to date succeeded beyond our expectations. We have had people buy Fords to run with us and of the 50 entries at Summit next month, have16 new to The Jefferson 500. Coincidentally when we started, Hoosier were looking at getting into the treaded Ford tire business and with Bruce Foss and you driving, we made a great mutually beneficial relationship that has been a significant factor in bringing folks out - fast reliable tire that's nice to drive, with long life and virtually no drop off, at a price people could afford. It was a turnaround in tire cost and leveled the playing field. We set out to cater for a particular type of racer and found there were more out there than we anticipated.

As you know we had a relationship with Right Coast that did not move forward, though remains cordial (I trust!) and we have a relationship with FRCCA which we hope will be mutually beneficial.

All that said, from discussions with Joe and Mike at Right Coast, with Andy a FRCCA and among racers on Apexspeed it is clear that other racers want a different model to that we provide. Slicks and Hondas being 2 demonstrably critical needs that have been made clear by a number of racers. RFFCS cannot be all things to all men. Hondas are an issue for RFFCS- as you will recall from an Apexspeed thread that caused all sorts of angst a couple of years ago, but there are Hondas out there that need somewhere to race and that need is being satisfied. RFFCS success on the tire front is a choice we made and people have voted with their pocket books to Hoosier - and entries. But there remain a significant number of racers who only want to race on slicks, and that is there choice. Do we think our model is better - yes, but are they entitled to to a different view - yes. Different strokes for different folks.

I understand your vision and its laudable - and one of your greatest strengths, I had hoped we would all get there eventually to build open wheel club racing back into a powerhouse. In reality, each of the managers of the groups think they do something better than the other guys and each is proud of his group, so getting them all together under one umbrella is unlikely. In any event the different running rules would not allow amalgamation - the tread guys would have conniptions if they thought they would have to run against Spectrum Hondas' on slicks, and rightly so, we have a great model that's working just fine, why screw around with it.

So if we were all to work together it would be to have different run groups at the same meeting. The problem there is that the sanctioning body needs full grids to pay for the tracks. So we would need a full grid of RFFCS and a full grid of others. At a number of VRG meetings this would be welcome - for example, The Glen is very expensive and we have to share to make it viable, our new Pitt-Race date in September may benefit from an additional run group/grid of open wheel and possibly New Jersey would have room. But as you know, we have not been able to persuade the other guys to join us in the numbers we need for a separate grid. Its a shame, VRG is a welcoming club in the manner SCCA should have been, and is deserving of support, but in the end, each group has to do what it feels is in its own best interest.

My suggestion is that we go on our way doing what we are doing, developing our offering, looking after our constituents - seems to be going OK at present, and if the other guys see any benefit in looking ahead together, then always be open to and welcome dialogue.

Apparently even The USA and North Korea have gotten there so who knows? (and before that remark gets misconstrued, which happens so often on Apexspeed, be clear that in no way am I likening you to The Donald and Rand to Kim Jong Un - though both are known to go nuclear occasionally!)

Keep fighting the fight

Best

BB (founding member RFFCS team)

Bernard,

I really like this approach and calm demeanor. You are absolutely right in that each group has its fans and advocates and no amount of cajoling, hooting, hollering or snobery will convince one group to join forces with the other, and rightly so. RFFCS is vintage/historic racing in its purist form and those who enjoy the comradery, clean prep levels and tight competition on a spec treaded tire have shown their support in numbers. Does this detract from the RCFFS or the FRCCA groups, not at all. Some believe that running slicks is purist FF racing at its finest and I can appreciate that approach too. Others follow Bob in FRP and play on the Pro level in modern cars at modern prices. Great racing but my budget doesn't allow for it and to be honest my balls aren't big enough either.

But, as you said our twains may never meet. No big deal. When, and if, participation numbers from ANY of us drops to the point where a group needs to rethink philosophy vs existence, we can talk calmly and kindly to each other. We can unite under a single banner, single rules and a single tire (ok 4 tires). Until then, carry on as you were

Let's all kiss and make up. Let's stop throwing our weight around and talk tech and set-ups and all the fun stuff the site provides. It's SPRING, see you at the races.

Robby

[SEComposites]

As an outsider looking in it would be great if these two or three disparate groups came together maybe once a year. Why not have separate races for each group? Each series would seem to attract strong enough support for separate races so getting them all in one place would be great. You could even turn into a mini Formula F(ord) Festival.

[problemchild]

Anyone remember the last time that could be said at a Spectator Car Club of America race? I was probably still in diapers.

The liferafts are filling up quickly...

How many SCCA races have you been to? I am not a fan of SCCA, but your comments are completely wrong in my experience. Some events, just like in vintage and other non-SCCA organized events, are poorly attended, but I have seen some of the very best FF racing ever at SCCA events in the last 15 months. I think my standards are pretty high as I attend FRP events, but Homestead, Sebring, Road Atlanta, VIR events have been outstanding. Last years, FF race at the Runoffs may have been one of the best Runoff races ever. The ARRC race was pretty good too, as are most events with RCFFS presence.

I would much rather see many of these SCCA racers at FRP events, but clearly SCCA is still having some very good FF events. That is undeniable.

Note: I did edit my comment as some wanted to apply a different context than intended.

[BorkRacing]

How many SCCA races have you been to? I am not a fan of SCCA, but your comments are completely wrong in my experience. Some events, like in vintage, are very poorly attended, but I have seen some of the very best FF racing ever at SCCA events in the last 15 months. I think my standards are pretty high as I attend FRP events, but Homestead, Sebring, Road Atlanta, VIR events have been outstanding. Last years, FF race at the Runoffs may have been one of the best Runoff races ever. The ARRC race was pretty good too, as are most events with RCFFS presence.

I would much rather see many of these SCCA racers at FRP events, but clearly SCCA is still having some very good FF events. That is undeniable.

Greg,
I told you that vintage FF would be a great place for you provide support services and then you go and insult the group???

FYI Vintage FF events get an average of 40 cars/event, times are close to SCCA times and on treaded tires. Some of the best racing I have seen in 20 years.

You're a smart guy, wouldn't you want business from a group of about 100 racers with about 3x the average income of SCCA members?

[scott fairchild]

How many SCCA races have you been to? I am not a fan of SCCA, but your comments are completely wrong in my experience. Some events, like in vintage, are very poorly attended, but I have seen some of the very best FF racing ever at SCCA events in the last 15 months. I think my standards are pretty high as I attend FRP events, but Homestead, Sebring, Road Atlanta, VIR events have been outstanding. Last years, FF race at the Runoffs may have been one of the best Runoff races ever. The ARRC race was pretty good too, as are most events with RCFFS presence.

I would much rather see many of these SCCA racers at FRP events, but clearly SCCA is still having some very good FF events. That is undeniable.

Greg,

My wife and I used to spectate SCCA events a few times a year, we haven't been in a few years due to kids and low car counts in the classes I'm interested in. Hard to justify a weekend trip to watch 1 or 2 fast drivers and a handful of field fillers make laps.

As for the health of the class, here is a comparison of entries for VIR and Summit majors for FF: 12 and 6 respectively. Vintage within a month at the same 2 tracks 47 and 50. Others can contribute RCFFS and FRP numbers, both of which have great competition. I'm not trying to be hostile (I hope it's not coming across that way), just logical and objective.

One sour taste, for me, is that many of the old SCCA guard don't give vintage racing the credibility it has earned from a participation, cost, camaraderie, and competition perspective. A 40 year old car on treads should not have lap times that come close to better developed cars on slicks, unless...

Good luck this year,
Scott

[problemchild]

Greg,
I told you that vintage FF would be a great place for you provide support services and then you go and insult the group???

FYI Vintage FF events get an average of 40 cars/event, times are close to SCCA times and on treaded tires. Some of the best racing I have seen in 20 years.

I was not insulting anybody. I was responding to a cheap shot and was very careful not to reply with one. My point was that there are some events in each "category" that are poorly attended, and to pick out a few as indicative of overall health of a "category" is unfair. The Blackhawk Majors event is another example of a poorly attended event that had shots taken.The situation at Summit Point, in particular, has historical context which has much more to do with local organizers. Other groups can be thankful for the growth they benefited from due to that local activity.

At this point, I hate some people in SCCA with monstrous passion, but you cannot deny that they still have outstanding FF races at numerous events during each season. I say that without judging any other group or category, never mind insulting them.

I wish that more people would "jump ship" but that is not happening.

[stonebridge20]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.

[scott fairchild]

Learned something new; if I respond by quoting a post and the original post then gets edited, the edited version appears in my post

[BorkRacing]

Learned something new; if I respond by quoting a post and the original post then gets edited, the edited version appears in my post

That is not good, changes context of everything.

[Cass Racing]

The problem with the Duffus's is they run those gross Honda engines..... (Get ready for a Honda-Nazi to lose their **** and make a "The Honda is so reliable!!!" statement).


Just kidding Love ya Chris, the real Royale Racer!

[BorkRacing]

The problem with the Duffus's is they run those gross Honda engines..... (Get ready for a Honda-Nazi to lose their **** and make a "The Honda is so reliable!!!" statement).


Just kidding Love ya Chris, the real Royale Racer!

I see a ban coming...LOL

[stonebridge20]

Really ?