Racing is about to get a whole lot less expensive

[petawawarace]

A few thoughts...

Who says it has to be SCCA racing? *
Just looked at the Road Atlanta site.
This year Chin has rented the place a lot more days than SCCA.

And, they could be new bike engines. Remember Legends worked out a deal with Yamaha in the past.
What if Honda Racing said they would sell crate engines?

Just saying.

Still patiently waiting on the Forgotten Coast.

*note: SCCA still has the BEST nationwide road racing offering. But, that said, formula car racing is just about dead in SCCA. look at attendance at this year's super tour events. Think they can set aside a run group at the Runoffs if only 5 cars attend? If they combine all the formula classes they may equal half a SRF field.

The Legend cars have recently announced a switch to a watercooled 3 cylinder/6 speed motor. Its Yamahas FZ-09. They are limiting it to around 125hp. You can buy this motor brand new from them for $7200 (IIRC) USD. Working a deal with Yamaha itself for the same motor could be had for quite a bit less.

[SEComposites]

That would be a good engine choice especially if you could buy a crate motor. They sound fantastic too.

[petawawarace]

That would be a good engine choice especially if you could buy a crate motor. They sound fantastic too.

I looked it up and the $7200 is for the complete kit. ECU, throttle bodies, cooling system, etc. A replacement motor (assuming no throttle bodies injectors etc) was $5500

[Rick Kirchner]

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/RHiD0K65NxxLO" width="480" height="269" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/popcorn-movie-nothing-RHiD0K65NxxLO">via GIPHY</a></p>

[Jnovak]

Coming 2019...

Fully adjustable suspension.
Six speed sequential
Faster than a Formula Ford.
Engines last 2 seasons or more.


price point - 30K brand new - race ready.

the current F5-6 cars have just the same performance and costs as what you propose.

See this video. https://www.facebook.com/sccaofficia...0923951271120/

[marshall9]

Wow!
A lot of negativity here.
Let's wait and see what's up.
Most of you remind me of when front wheel drive came out in passenger cars.

[ric baribeault]

I can imagine Lewis Black saying this!

Wouldn't he be yelling it?
I'm done after the RAtl 50th, but my interest is peaked

[BorkRacing]

Wouldn't he be yelling it?
I'm done after the RAtl 50th, but my interest is peaked

Yes and he would follow it with a F@#k and finger twitching.

To use a joke of his about too many Starbucks...this would be like formula car racing for people with Alzheimers. They would get out of one formula car after just racing it and look across the pit and see this new formula car and say "hey, we should buy a formula car and go racing".

[mmi16]

Crack dealers offer a enticing price point to start!

After your hooked the sky is the limit

[ejpoulsen]

A few thoughts...

Who says it has to be SCCA racing? *
Just looked at the Road Atlanta site.
This year Chin has rented the place a lot more days than SCCA.

And, they could be new bike engines. Remember Legends worked out a deal with Yamaha in the past.
What if Honda Racing said they would sell crate engines?

Just saying.

Still patiently waiting on the Forgotten Coast.

*note: SCCA still has the BEST nationwide road racing offering. But, that said, formula car racing is just about dead in SCCA. look at attendance at this year's super tour events. Think they can set aside a run group at the Runoffs if only 5 cars attend? If they combine all the formula classes they may equal half a SRF field.

Actually decent turnout for Formula F Majors at Thunderhill this past weekend; not sure how representative that is.

[ejpoulsen]

Is this what's being hinted at?

http://www.phillymotorsports.com/f1000-info.html

[stonebridge20]

Is this what's being hinted at?

http://www.phillymotorsports.com/f1000-info.html

I doubt it.

[OneWayOut]

This is such nonsense. They said all this about the new F4 car, and now it's selling used for $80k+.

[Robert Finlayson]

Not sure where you’re getting your information. A brand new F4 car costs $51K with an engine lease of $6K.

[Lotus7]

This is such nonsense. They said all this about the new F4 car, and now it's selling used for $80k+.

who is selling and where is it advertised?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I'll guess 600cc motorcycle engine with "real" suspension. I had a conversation with Steve L about this type way way back. IMHO, this is what F600 should have been... full size, FF capability / suspension, using 600 m/c engine.

Exactly my thought also. The comparison pricing the promoter is throwing out, especially for FV cost, is way out of line. A national caliber FV can be had for $10-13K these days probably with a spare motor and other spare parts.

With that being said I am very interested to see what this magic car is all about. Always thought the 600cc motorcycle engine/transmission would be a great starting point for a low cost race car. If they are smart they will include a sports racer body kit for those that are afraid of open wheel cars, which SCCA surveys show is pretty high percentage of the total membership.

[TimH]

Most of you remind me of when front wheel drive came out in passenger cars.

Still don't like 'em.

[holmberg]

I'm betting it will be a spec car derived from an F1000 with:

• a restricted 1000cc motorcycle engine (to about 7500 RPM producing 115 HP and 80 ft-lbs), pump fuel.
• no down-force
• 750 lbs without driver
• FF-sized tires with long-lasting compound (Hoosier R60A in either bias-ply or radial, or American Racer bias-ply as used on Club Ford and Formula First)
• A fully-independent suspension with in-board dampers and an open differential.
• FF lap-times, but less expensive to repair.

This would keep operational costs down to about $377 per weekend, versus $959 for F600, $849 for SRF3, $794 for Club FF, $718 for FV, $558 for FF, and $467 for FST. Spreadsheet.

Profits will be made selling spec parts.

Car can run with the SCCA in the regional-only class FS. Like Formula First, it could have its own series with sponsorship from the engine provider and the tire provider. The promoter would score the cars from the FS timing sheets. SCCA just runs the track, not the results. Nobody cares about the Run-offs.

I'm ready to buy one.


Greg

[BeerBudgetRacing]

• a restricted 1000cc motorcycle engine (to about 7500 RPM producing 115 HP and 80 ft-lbs), pump fuel.

I agree with this.

Any time we run an engine at high RPM or eek out the last HP, we drive the cost up exponentially.
Engine and gearbox both suffer.

We aren't manufacturers testing reliability for our retail products, so why do we insist on the same cost structure?

That said, this engine theory could 'fix' FF, FC as well by allowing more robust restricted engines.

[OneWayOut]

who is selling and where is it advertised?

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...atuus-for-Sale

[Matt Clark]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...atuus-for-Sale

isn't that the new USF2000 car?
USF4 uses a Honda.

[Bob Wright]

That is a MRTI USF17 F2000 car, not a F4

This is a F4- see pricing in the body of the verbiage:

https://www.f4uschampionship.com/

then 'buyer's guide'

[Brandon Dixon]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...atuus-for-Sale

This one is $76,000.

https://www.exclusivemotorworks.com/...igier-js-f4-2/

[Lotus7]

This one is $76,000.

https://www.exclusivemotorworks.com/...igier-js-f4-2/

Two possibilities:

1. the seller is opportunistic, and thinks someone will pay a premium to not to wait in line for one from Crawford.
2. the west coast "F4 series" is not FIA sanctioned, and therefore the cars don't need to conform; this one may be modified in numerous cost-additional ways. Edit: should say "perhaps cars dont need to conform".

[Steve Bamford]

#fakenews...you can get a new car from Onrock for the quoted price in a timely manner. Don’t let others provide false info. Lease packages available for engines from Honda that you buy out during year two. I have a F4 you can buy right now if someone wants with owned engine & I’m not asking a premium.

Dont let others give you false info such as 15k FV engines or FF & FC engines that only last a few weekends of use. That info simply isn’t correct.

I wish the promoter luck with new venture, hopefully it all works out. Some free advice, provide accurate info when selling your car/series on what Your car will do, don’t provide info on other cars or series as you will just put people off or push them away. Also if you are going to say you’ve developed a better mouse trap, then list what you have & what you are selling. Don’t build hype then let people down as you need to build momentum not kill it before you start.

[Jnovak]

Exactly my thought also. The comparison pricing the promoter is throwing out, especially for FV cost, is way out of line. A national caliber FV can be had for $10-13K these days probably with a spare motor and other spare parts.

With that being said I am very interested to see what this magic car is all about. Always thought the 600cc motorcycle engine/transmission would be a great starting point for a low cost race car. If they are smart they will include a sports racer body kit for those that are afraid of open wheel cars, which SCCA surveys show is pretty high percentage of the total membership.

i tried 2 time with the scca to make f600 a bigger car with its own clsss. They told me to go away and stop. I did.

[holmberg]

If they are smart they will include a sports racer body kit for those that are afraid of open wheel cars, which SCCA surveys show is pretty high percentage of the total membership.

I agree. I've talked to a few Porsche racers, asking if they had any interest in formula racing. They all said the same thing: they're afraid of the open wheels and the open cockpit.

I'm not sure there's much we can do about the open cockpit, but if we want to attract the converted-street-car crowd (Boxsters, Miatas, BMWs) into purpose-built cars, I think closed wheels will be necessary.

Greg

[CenDiv4]

You must mean 15k FV because there isn't an FV motor in existence that costs that much unless you gold plate it....

Well, contraire ... take a look again. Here is a Primo motor, without a carb or manifold and if you read correctly will/was to be used at least one session. Basic math makes this motor plus a carb and manifold worthy enough a 15K+ package.

I am absolutely confident it is worth every single penny, I would not expect anything less from the seller. It's up to a buyer to determine... but it's available it you have the $$$. How fast do you want to go?

See below:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...light=VARACINS

[LenFC11]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?59803-Multiple-Runoffs-Pole-Winning-Motor&highlight=VARACINS[/url]

I don't think a post from 4 years ago is accurate today

As well one might consider this to be one of the rare monster engines with an impressive resume

And the OP was referencing a 15k FV engine not an FF engine

[B Farnham]

Well, contraire ... take a look again. Here is a Primo motor, without a carb or manifold and if you read correctly will/was to be used at least one session. Basic math makes this motor plus a carb and manifold worthy enough a 15K+ package.

I am absolutely confident it is worth every single penny, I would not expect anything less from the seller. It's up to a buyer to determine... but it's available it you have the $$$. How fast do you want to go?

See below:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...light=VARACINS

That's the outlier in the whole situation, the one engine that sold for 10k 4 years ago. Since then no one has asked anywhere near that for an engine.

I bought my whole car with engine for 12k and it's now finished on the podium at the runoffs 3 times. You can buy a complete Vortech for 15k that's capable of winning. It's the spreading of false information that is frustrating.

And if a top carb and manifold is worth 5k I'll sell you mine right now

[cory mcleod]

Still don't like 'em.

Currently own 5 street cars. Number with FWD: 0.

[mmi16]

Well, contraire ... take a look again. Here is a Primo motor, without a carb or manifold and if you read correctly will/was to be used at least one session. Basic math makes this motor plus a carb and manifold worthy enough a 15K+ package.

I am absolutely confident it is worth every single penny, I would not expect anything less from the seller. It's up to a buyer to determine... but it's available it you have the $$$. How fast do you want to go?

See below:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...light=VARACINS

Asking price and completed transaction prices are two different things.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

i tried 2 time with the scca to make f600 a bigger car with its own clsss. They told me to go away and stop. I did.

"Build it and they will come"

I could care less what SCCA thinks of my idea. I would not even ask for their input. If I believe strongly enough in my concept I go ahead and build one. Assuming the idea takes off they would have no choice but to adopt it. The market controls the destiny. Many classes have started this way.

Besides there is always the regional FS class as a starting place.

[Pi_guy]

"Build it and they will come"

.

That worked out real well for the Radon.

[Lotus7]

That worked out real well for the Radon.

chalk and cheese to this threads' relevance ....

[Lotus7]

these guys came up in conversation a couple of years ago; 7000 british pounds complete was their claim; been resurrected?

http://www.t89.co.uk/news-links--contacts.html

[mikey]

I agree. I've talked to a few Porsche racers, asking if they had any interest in formula racing. They all said the same thing: they're afraid of the open wheels and the open cockpit.

I'm not sure there's much we can do about the open cockpit, but if we want to attract the converted-street-car crowd (Boxsters, Miatas, BMWs) into purpose-built cars, I think closed wheels will be necessary.

Greg

Negative - you just have to offer them a “test drive” in an open wheel. If that doesn’t convert someone, they’re already dead inside.

[mmi16]

Negative - you just have to offer them a “test drive” in an open wheel. If that doesn’t convert someone, they’re already dead inside.

Real race cars don't have fenders, doors or a roof!

[Jamesbe]

Only a halo lol

[Jnovak]

"Build it and they will come"

I could care less what SCCA thinks of my idea. I would not even ask for their input. If I believe strongly enough in my concept I go ahead and build one. Assuming the idea takes off they would have no choice but to adopt it. The market controls the destiny. Many classes have started this way.

Besides there is always the regional FS class as a starting place.

good for you. Not enough balls and $$$ on my end. Plus i love the class. Been involved in it since 1986.