yellow flag clarification

[swiftdrivr]

I remember reading a bit about yellow flag rules clarification last fall, but can't find where I read it. Does anyone recall anything about this? There was also a discussion that seemed to indicate they were changing our "black flag all" to mean what used to be a red flag. Anybody know anything about this?

[John Nesbitt]

I remember reading a bit about yellow flag rules clarification last fall, but can't find where I read it. Does anyone recall anything about this? There was also a discussion that seemed to indicate they were changing our "black flag all" to mean what used to be a red flag. Anybody know anything about this?

The only thing that changed was a clarification/amplification of the Yellow Flag rules. From January GCR:

6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag
...
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed thru the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.
WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface may
be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be made
to proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until past
the emergency incident.
The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

[swiftdrivr]

Thanks, John.

[farrout]

The "slow significantly" on the standing yellow is generally not happening by all competitors from what I have seen in recent races. Can anyone (i.e., F&C, Stewards) define significantly? Slow down by 10%, 25%, 50% ????

If you slow down and your class competitor whom you are following closely does not, then you have created a gap to him that may not be able to be made up.

Waving yellow is quite different because someone is probably blocking part of the track or spinning. Now it self preservation to slow and figure out where it safe to go. That same self preservation factor is not always present on a standing yellow.

It will take some publicized adverse action on some drivers for the racing community to get this new message and reflect it in their actions.

[John Nesbitt]

...

It will take some publicized adverse action on some drivers for the racing community to get this new message and reflect it in their actions.

Last year, after a series of incidents, the stewards at Summit Point attacked this problem (overdriving the Yellow). We formalized our approach in a supplement to the SCCA standard penalty guidelines, and I publicized the policy to the driver community. The first weekend, we pulled three licenses.

These things are never perfect, but we have seen a marked improvement in behavior in Yellow Flag zones. Response from the driver community has been overwhelmingly positive.

Here is the relevant passage from our supplement (circulated to all drivers):

Flag Violations

Take action, referencing the appropriate section of 6.1. Depending on circumstances, consider using also 2.1.4. (Reckless and Dangerous Driving).

1. 'Simple' PUY (no EV or F&C involved) - follow the standard guidelines. Givebacks permitted in appropriate circumstances.

2. Failure to respond to individual Black or Meatball - loss of times, loss of finishing position, or CSA probation, according to circumstances. Hit the offending car (at Start and/or Station 4) a minimum of three times before taking action.

3. Failure to respond to Yellow/BFA/Red, or loss of control under Yellow - First offense: CSA probation for two or three events. Second offense: RFA with request for DQ and suspension.

4. Reckless or dangerous driving under Yellow/BFA/Red/White, including avoidable contact or any avoidable interaction with EV/F&C - RFA with request for DQ and suspension.

The new GCR language for local Yellows is a step in the right direction. It brings the GCR language closer to existing F&C practice (Waving on the Paving; Standing on the Grass.)

It does not solve two vexing problems:

1. Racing to the Yellow. Drivers consistently race full-bore to the Yellow. The rules permit this, and competition dictates it. In a 50-car SSM field, and the Yellow visible from several hundred feet, a driver can lose many places by easing up in sight of a local Yellow.

2. Not seeing the &#$^$ flag. In one Black Flag All incident, we had a driver blast by several flag station, with the Black out, before arriving at the incident as EV was responding. He came into the pits ranting about how there were no warning flags and only his god-like driving skills avoided tragedy. He left the track that afternoon without his license.

Drivers simply must reserve enough bandwidth to see the flags, and to respond appropriately.

[iamuwere]

Steve Pence at the Sebring Major drivers' meeting suggested that there needed to be a notable decrease in speed. It was asked what the constituted. He responded that something like 30% reduction would be a good amount.

Obviously this is hard. I can tell you I had no problem backing off during the open wheel race mid to late race yellow since I had a decent gap.

During the SRF3 race, I didn't dare back off that much during a first lap yellow, it would have honestly been dangerous with various rates of checking up in a line of tightly packed cars.

I don't know exactly how to make it work, but clearly we need to find a way to get people slowed more in yellow flag zones.

[farrout]

30% reduction.

For those of us with only a tach, 6 speeds, variable gearing, and no speedometer, any percent reduction is about impossible to calculate or reliably meet. I know I do not have my gearing chart (RPM vs speed in each gear) memorized LOL. Nor can I calculate it in real time.

Frankly, about the only means of "slowing significantly" is to just lift off WOT since I run WOT everywhere except under braking. Since we run in a group (fast wings n things) without brake lights, tapping the brake to slow down does not give any warning to those behind us. Braking hard is pretty much reserved for the waving yellow situation when there is probably another car in the middle of the track in a blind turn. Forget a wave since our arms do not get out of the cockpit due to the arm restraints and are basically invisible from behind.

With all this, I just hope that any following driver is paying attention. At the Homestead Majors, I got tagged from behind by a driver who was surprised how fast I could brake when going deep before a turn when going inside. There were 4 or 5 of us in the melee before the turn. Took off my upper wing, destroyed the rear downforce and made the car very unstable (like driving every braking zone and turn with oil on track sort of unstable). All this was after a FCY/Pace car and we were a bit bunched up. My race was over.

[jchracer]

Steve Pence at the Sebring Major drivers' meeting suggested that there needed to be a notable decrease in speed. It was asked what the constituted. He responded that something like 30% reduction would be a good amount.

Obviously this is hard. I can tell you I had no problem backing off during the open wheel race mid to late race yellow since I had a decent gap.

During the SRF3 race, I didn't dare back off that much during a first lap yellow, it would have honestly been dangerous with various rates of checking up in a line of tightly packed cars.

I don't know exactly how to make it work, but clearly we need to find a way to get people slowed more in yellow flag zones.

I heard the same message from Steve Pence. Afterwards, I went into a blind turn with the yellow waving and I broke maybe 20 feet early and barely slowed....result, the clueless racer behind me plows into me at full speed and takes me out of the race. I don't know what the answer is but until everyone agrees and acts accordingly, I will think twice before slowing down for the yellow.

[Bob Wright]

I was in the same meeting and asked the question- think about this: At Sebring a hot lap in a FC is, say 2:10, a cool down lap is maybe 2:30-2:35 (?). That's about 12-15%. Anyone who has driven a formula car knows backing off just a little puts the car well under control. I can see slowing significantly for a waiving yellow, especially on a blind corner, but less so for a stationary one.

Drivers will continue to race to the yellow (or through it) until the penalties get really big, which is what I think SCCA is trying to do.

[FVRacer21]

At the Thompson race at the end of the year, we had several drivers in the FV race set their fastest or second fastest lap with a waving yellow on the track!

This after the group had been chastised for over-driving yellows in practice.

In F1 they can request data acquisition an punish drivers. We do not have that option.

The problem with relying on corner workers to report drivers is they are kind of busy during a yellow flag. My suggestion, taking a cue from the Skip Barber Race Series () would be to have "umpires" or "referees" around the track. This could be driving instructors, stewards, or dedicated workers. They do not have to be at every corner every race, they could move around to keep things interesting. They would have the authority to report drivers, not just for the yellow flag violations but for other driving infractions. Might have a calming effect................but I am not holding my breath.

The main thing about a yellow flag is that your car is under control and you can react to any situations. I have been around long enough to have seen drivers and workers hurt in these situations. Watch the TransAm. If this new in car yellow system works, we will have it in two years - just like transponders.

ChrisZ

[Steve Bamford]

Didn’t Steve mention the rule came out due to incidence caused under yellow flags where cars actually ended up hitting safety crews & that hot pills were being eliminated at most tracks due to this? So the idea is to give more green flag laps with the rule however slowing up 30% isn’t going to happen. Steve mentioned he is/was a SRF raver & for him slowing up meant 97% but also told us that wasn’t acceptable as corner workers had to notice the difference in our speeds.

It’s a tough one to figure out for sure. The idea & plan is valid, execution is much tougher.

I believe during a race backing off to 97% or 95% is much safer then backing off 70%. Not only do your competitors not always expect the huge change in speed, all of your visual markers go away.

[Peter Olivola]

At the Thompson race at the end of the year, we had several drivers in the FV race set their fastest or second fastest lap with a waving yellow on the track!

This after the group had been chastised for over-driving yellows in practice.

In F1 they can request data acquisition an punish drivers. We do not have that option.

The problem with relying on corner workers to report drivers is they are kind of busy during a yellow flag. My suggestion, taking a cue from the Skip Barber Race Series () would be to have "umpires" or "referees" around the track. This could be driving instructors, stewards, or dedicated workers. They do not have to be at every corner every race, they could move around to keep things interesting. They would have the authority to report drivers, not just for the yellow flag violations but for other driving infractions. Might have a calming effect................but I am not holding my breath.

The main thing about a yellow flag is that your car is under control and you can react to any situations. I have been around long enough to have seen drivers and workers hurt in these situations. Watch the TransAm. If this new in car yellow system works, we will have it in two years - just like transponders.

ChrisZ

While ideal, the reason we aren't doing this is the same reason we don't have enough eyes on the corners to see things like this. Once upon a time, it was the flag mob. The missing bodies can't be easily replaced and adding observers is no different than adding bodies to the corners. Solve that problem and it won't matter whether they're corner workers or dedicated observers.

[John Nesbitt]

I suspect that Steve’s 30% guideline at Sebring was informed, at least in part, by F1 procedure (virtual safety car), which specifies a dial-back on this scale. This flowed out of the Bianchi fatality, where telemetry showed that a speed reduction on this scale made it virtually certain that a driver could maintain control.

The problem in our arena is two-fold. First, we do not have the telemetry and speed control technology that F1 does. Second, the range of skill levels among SCCA drivers is almost infinitely more variable than that among F1 drivers. Driver A could be under total control at 97%. Driver B at 90%. And Driver C never sees the Yellow.

No matter how many flaggers or other observers we might have stationed, it is quite impossible for someone to determine the degree to which a car has slowed. It is a question of perspective. We all know how it feels when we check up for a Yellow – the car seems to be crawling. I can tell you from my own direct experience in F&C and EV, particularly lying on my back in a gravel trap hooking up a car, that those cars are flying by.

For these reasons, we took a functional approach at Summit Point. A spin under Yellow, contact under Yellow, a near miss with an EV person, are all objective, observable actions. We impose license consequences. It seems to be helping. (He said hopefully.)

[FVRacer21]

While ideal, the reason we aren't doing this is the same reason we don't have enough eyes on the corners to see things like this. Once upon a time, it was the flag mob. The missing bodies can't be easily replaced and adding observers is no different than adding bodies to the corners. Solve that problem and it won't matter whether they're corner workers or dedicated observers.

The difference is that the corner workers have no authority to confront drivers during the weekend, I would like to hear from Chump Car and Lemons participants how they are currently being policed - in the beginning getting your car crushed was funny, but I don't think it has relevance to our racing.

As far as getting more corner workers, some of the problems are real world issues. Too many races, scheduling races on weekdays (lots of Friday races and practices) , race weekends the week after the Runoffs, people working longer hours with less vacation, all contribute to the aging of workers that matches the drivers. Might be time for either less weekends, more one day races, and recruiting from other sources (when was the last time the SCCA took an ad out in something other than a motorsports magazine? - maybe recruiting on college campuses? )

The solution seems to be leaning to stricter penalties, found though more eyes on the track and enforced fairly. How we accomplish these means, to use the old cliche, means thinking outside the box.

ChrisZ

[Peter Olivola]

The difference is that the corner workers have no authority to confront drivers during the weekend, I would like to hear from Chump Car and Lemons participants how they are currently being policed - in the beginning getting your car crushed was funny, but I don't think it has relevance to our racing.

As far as getting more corner workers, some of the problems are real world issues. Too many races, scheduling races on weekdays (lots of Friday races and practices) , race weekends the week after the Runoffs, people working longer hours with less vacation, all contribute to the aging of workers that matches the drivers. Might be time for either less weekends, more one day races, and recruiting from other sources (when was the last time the SCCA took an ad out in something other than a motorsports magazine? - maybe recruiting on college campuses? )

The solution seems to be leaning to stricter penalties, found though more eyes on the track and enforced fairly. How we accomplish these means, to use the old cliche, means thinking outside the box.

ChrisZ

What you're advocating - "confronting drivers" - is the responsibility of the Chief Steward and/or SOM. People who have been trained and mentored in dealing with all aspects of race operations. The idea that competitors need to be "confronted" outside the RFA/CSA/Protest process is at odds with the club's structure.

Whether an observer or corner worker, a report to race control is the right way to initiate action. Barring that, the protest process is available. That process does not provide for an observer to "confront" a competitor and I think it would be a serious mistake to bypass that process.

[FVRacer21]

What you're advocating - "confronting drivers" - is the responsibility of the Chief Steward and/or SOM. People who have been trained and mentored in dealing with all aspects of race operations. The idea that competitors need to be "confronted" outside the RFA/CSA/Protest process is at odds with the club's structure.

Whether an observer or corner worker, a report to race control is the right way to initiate action. Barring that, the protest process is available. That process does not provide for an observer to "confront" a competitor and I think it would be a serious mistake to bypass that process.

Sorry, I used the word in the wrong context- I am suggesting a change where a designated person would have the authority to act on behalf of the CS and SOM - if you add driver reviews to them on an initial higher number of incidents, I think they would be overwhelmed. We are kicking around the idea of class “monitors” and a “code of conduct” within our race group - but are still discussing what this would look like and how it would operate.

Even with increased corner workers they can report incidents, but it is difficult for them to participate in a review in a timely manner. Every other sport in the world has judges, referees or umpires. I am trying to think of another sport that is self policing like ours and a complicated albeit fair way of dealing with incidents.

ChrisZ

[Peter Olivola]

Sorry, I used the word in the wrong context- I am suggesting a change where a designated person would have the authority to act on behalf of the CS and SOM - if you add driver reviews to them on an initial higher number of incidents, I think they would be overwhelmed. We are kicking around the idea of class “monitors” and a “code of conduct” within our race group - but are still discussing what this would look like and how it would operate.

Even with increased corner workers they can report incidents, but it is difficult for them to participate in a review in a timely manner. Every other sport in the world has judges, referees or umpires. I am trying to think of another sport that is self policing like ours and a complicated albeit fair way of dealing with incidents.

ChrisZ

As long as you don't create a situation that escalates into a a hostile confrontation, you can do that now. It doesn't need to be formalized within the GCR or even the Supplemental Regulations. Peer mentoring has a long tradition in the club. The "I don't want to be the bad guy" situation has reduced its use, but it's very much within the club's tradition.

[Messenger Racing]

Rule doesn't work. 50 car field at the runoffs - yellow flag all came out on lap 1 when we were in the esses leading to flag station at 10. I starting waiving my hand due to the extremely close quarters and brake slightly early entering 10 - position lost - we were about 20 ft from the line defined in the yellow flag rule.

Just sayin'

[Hardingfv32]

Rule doesn't work.

The rule is that you race to the flag. There is no other way to realistically administer the rule in club racing. In most cases the flag is well before the accident so you have time to slow if required.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

The rule is that you race to the flag. There is no other way to realistically administer the rule in club racing. In most cases the flag is well before the accident so you have time to slow if required.

Brian

If you race to the flag, you may end up killing someone.
You are under the affect of the yellow flag as soon as you can see it,

WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface may
be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be madeto proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until past
the emergency incident.
The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

What if the incident is just past the flag? Here is where people lose the meaning of the rule. You should react as soon as you can see the flag and PREPARE how to handle it. That is why stations prior to a flag (like the uphill at Lime Rock) will show a standing yellow with a waving yellow at the top of the hill. The workers are trying to communicate something you cannot see (yet).

Now because you are the leader of a pack - you will see the flag first - I say it is your unwritten responsibility to NOT slam on the brakes, but signal if possible, as the car behind may not be able to see though you.

If you only focus on the no passing part - you only are understanding part of the rule.

Chris Z

[Peter Olivola]

If you race to the flag, you may end up killing someone.
You are under the affect of the yellow flag as soon as you can see it,

WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface may
be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be madeto proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until past
the emergency incident.
The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

What if the incident is just past the flag? Here is where people lose the meaning of the rule. You should react as soon as you can see the flag and PREPARE how to handle it. That is why stations prior to a flag (like the uphill at Lime Rock) will show a standing yellow with a waving yellow at the top of the hill. The workers are trying to communicate something you cannot see (yet).

Now because you are the leader of a pack - you will see the flag first - I say it is your unwritten responsibility to NOT slam on the brakes, but signal if possible, as the car behind may not be able to see though you.

If you only focus on the no passing part - you only are understanding part of the rule.

Chris Z

That is not the interpretation of the rule being applied currently. The rule does not prevent passing before the plane of the flag. This has been a persistent problem since the plane of the flag wording was added to the GCR. Old time corner workers were still using your interpretation, calling in PUY and the subsequent investigation determined the pass occurred before the plane of the flag.

What you've described validates Jay's comment.

[EricP]

So, wouldn’t astute corner workers throw the flag a station before the accident was that close to the following flag station?

For me personally, since this is CLUB* racing, I relent (safely depending on those around me) when I see the yellow.

*I suppose runoffs or the like have higher stakes but personally, the stakes are never big enough to risk it.

[John Nesbitt]

So, wouldn’t astute corner workers throw the flag a station before the accident was that close to the following flag station?

For me personally, since this is CLUB* racing, I relent (safely depending on those around me) when I see the yellow.

*I suppose runoffs or the like have higher stakes but personally, the stakes are never big enough to risk it.

That (Yellow at the station before) is not general practice. In any case, it simply moves the problem upstream. The rules permit racing to the Yellow, and competitive pressure pretty much dictates it. And, some significant fraction of drivers do not even see the flag.

[EricP]

“And, some significant fraction of drivers do not even see the flag.”

Probably the bigger issue.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

That (Yellow at the station before) is not general practice. In any case, it simply moves the problem upstream. The rules permit racing to the Yellow, and competitive pressure pretty much dictates it. And, some significant fraction of drivers do not even see the flag.

Hmmmm. Interesting. So the track is blocked 3 feet passed perpendicular to the flag in a blind corner - say the left turn coming back onto the NASCAR circuit at The Glen. I guess it makes sense to somebody, unless I am missing the point.

But you are correct John, I have had experience of leading into that turn, seeing a yellow out the corner of my eye, checking up, raised hand, seeing bits of fiberglass on track, and finding the guy second in line behind saw my slowing as an opportunity to take the lead. Needless to say the car sideways in mid track after hitting the barrier that caused the yellow, then led to much damage for the group I was in and much hand wringing subsequently.

Guess I would prefer the problem upstream when the track is clear and all have a chance to slow down in an orderly fashion - if we assume that drivers do not see the yellow as merely a suggestion, as so many are want to do!!

BB

[FVRacer21]

Hmmmm. Interesting. So the track is blocked 3 feet passed perpendicular to the flag in a blind corner - say the left turn coming back onto the NASCAR circuit at The Glen. I guess it makes sense to somebody, unless I am missing the point.

BB

Funny you mention the Glen, as in the 80's ( i do not know if they do it today) if a flagger with a yellow could see you, they assumed you could see the flag and considered you under control of the flag when you saw it.

"WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface may
be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop."

At this point there is no discussion of passing. What is left up to the driver, and is the discussion of this thread, is how much.

"All efforts should be madeto proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until past
the emergency incident."

In order to do this, the drivers must slow down BEFORE the Flag Station not at it.

Now if seems there are three ways of resolving this.

1, Racing stops at the sight of the yellow and anyone racing into a yellow and passing would have to give the position back (puts a lot of pressure on the corner workers, but that is how it used to be handled.) Remember, PASSING AFTER the flag is an immediate Black Flag - passing before and giving it back is just an ooops......

2. An umpire system like I recommend (new to the SCCA but used in other forms of racing - like the racing schools)

3. An Area designated as the yellow flag zone before the corner - sort of like the yellow light on the street or the Start zone used by NASCAR and IndyCar. This zone is for the drivers and corner workers use. If you enter the zone, you can still pass if committed, but it is the time to get sorted out for the single file rule above. Use cones, paint the track - whatever. Remember, at some tracks there is no possibility of a preliminary flag - the distance is too great, and if the incident is that bad then full course yellow means stop racing immediately.

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

What you've described validates Jay's comment.

Well in the current gentleman's SCCA, you would pull a roll of $100 bills (don't know what the rate is for the Runoffs) and protest every driver that passed you arguing that they did not slow significantly. Now the Stewards would have to ask all the corner workers, driver and other witnesses to the hearing and request all video form cars and TV, and hash it out.

Now no official wants to sort that out, but in lieu of any other system, you have to do it that way.

Alternatively, you try to rewrite the rule or come up with a alternative. I personally think the FV race should have been full course after the first lap fiasco, and restarted single file. (I also think the start line should have been much closer to the first turn to eliminate the first turn disaster which caught many classes, but that is just my opinion.)

ChrisZ

[Hartley]

I heard the same message from Steve Pence. Afterwards, I went into a blind turn with the yellow waving and I broke maybe 20 feet early and barely slowed....result, the clueless racer behind me plows into me at full speed and takes me out of the race. I don't know what the answer is but until everyone agrees and acts accordingly, I will think twice before slowing down for the yellow.

Joel I am very sorry to put you out of the race and hopefully you feel equally bad for putting me out of the race. In my opinion and to others who viewed my video you lifted too abruptly and slowed too quickly. After seeing the flag I lifted and simultaneosly braked (left foot braker) at the #4 (first) cone. I usually lift at the #3 (sometimes beyond) cone. So I gave up at least 25% braking distance before the flag and corner. You were 3 car lengths ahead of me when I lifted. I have the video if you would like to see it. I take some share of the blame game because just like a road car accident the car behind is just about always guilty. However we are racing cars here not syncronized swimming. My wife asked me ‘is there not someway to avoid this type of accident’? I honestly dont know how I could have done it. We race so close, sometimes just a foot apart. That is not too close if we are both on the throttle or brakes at the same time. We do learn to trust each other, some people we just cannot. I have even made peace with John S. He told me just the other day that he feels comfortable racing with me. I took this as a huge compliment. To be honest, after reviewing my video, because of the position of your car I did not see the flag until just before the braking zone. By then it was too late to check up any more than I did. Up to that point we had raced hard and fair for several laps each giving the room we needed for safety. Someone in this thread said maybe the flag station before the affected corner should throw out a yellow. This definitely would have helped. But realistically, on this particular blind corner the flag station should be moved closer to the braking zone for better visability. Again Joel I am very sorry for the collision it was not the ending either of us wanted.

Signed,

Clueless in South Florida

[xmazdatracy]

I like videos.

[Charles Warner]

This thread is frightening. People are making up anecdotal situations to justify their actions and reasoning. Heaven forbid logic should prevail. Racing to the flag is, IMO, stupid. Not displaying a standing yellow the corner before a waving yellow is also, IMO, stupid, possibly negligent. That's the way it used to be done.

In most cases you have no idea what the situation is when a standing yellow is displayed, let alone a waving yellow. Anyone who feels justified in racing up to a waving yellow, even if allowed by the rules, is an absolute idiot, and should not be allowed on the track. So someone passes you - they get the $2.00 trophy. You get to drive your expensive race car (and more expensive feet/legs) back to the pits and onto the trailer.

Discussions like this indicate we need to return to the Novice, Regional, National format where racers got a chance to learn from experience, and not be race-track-lawyers. Being allowed on the track is a privilege, and I'm hearing a lot of opinions that I feel should result in a loss of that privilege. If you can't control the red mist then play with your Game-Boy (or whatever they are called.)

Yes, stiffer penalties should be invoked. Serious penalties. And the rules should be tightened up, and followed. Can the rules fore-see or cover every situation? Of course not. That's when logic has to become primary. And, appropriate action should be taken as soon as you see the flag.

One option is to require the system we used at Road America with the Masters Group. Each driver has a Racing Radios receiver that will receive a set hot channel to Race Control. Carl Jensen (RIP) could immediately talk to all drivers on track at the same time and inform them of potential situations. Cost? About $100. It's an option, and a good system.

[Hardingfv32]

Racing to the flag is, IMO, stupid.

And MANY say racing in general is stupid. Racing to the flag is just one of the many (most drivers would say) acceptable risks associated with the sport.

Time and experience has proven that racing to the plane of the flag is the correct solution from an administrative and competition point of view.

Brian

[Roland V. Johnson]

Nice comments, Charlie Warner!

[Bob Wright]

Situations vary greatly, corner to corner, track to track. The basic assumption is 'waving on the pavement', 'standing in the grass'. You have to start somewhere, and this has been a part of SCCA doctrine as long as I can remember.

I have flagged everything from Skippy Series weekends to Formula 1. Drivers need to be aware of what they're doing and what is in front of them. A driver can tell a lot by how much agitation the flagger has as he/she is waving that yellow- its not in the book, but its a tell I certainly use. Blind corners (turn 11 at MO? Remember that one, PF?) are different from, say turn 10A at RAt, where you can see exactly what's happening. There needs to be some common sense, not to mention self-preservation.

I kind of view violating yellow flag rules the same as blowing red lights- the consequences can be really bad, so should the penalties.

[DaveW]

Racing to the flag is, IMO, the only practical way to handle a yellow-flag situation. Anything else leads to driver confusion and misunderstandings, let alone any way for officials to make a decision on where any fault might lie.

If the incident is such that drivers need to slow earlier than the flag station before the incident, then a stationary yellow flag should be displayed at the previous station. This allows drivers to slow a bit before the "real" incident flag w/o worrying about being passed after the "warning" yellow.

Backing off early can be a dangerous situation, and there will always be resulting confusion and misunderstandings.

[Bob Wright]

In my experience, if there is a serious incident, the corner will usually request a stationary flag at the previous station.

In a general comment- I would suggest that anyone with a competition license spend some time on a flag station and understand what goes on and what the procedures are; its a whole different optic of the sport.

[Steve Bamford]

On a full course caution you still are able to race to the first flag station even though they are showing double yellows. I had to have this clarified for me me several times however this is the ruling.

[John Nesbitt]

Racing to the flag is, IMO, the only practical way to handle a yellow-flag situation. Anything else leads to driver confusion and misunderstandings, let alone any way for officials to make a decision on where any fault might lie.

If the incident is such that drivers need to slow earlier than the flag station before the incident, then a stationary yellow flag should be displayed at the previous station. This allows drivers to slow a bit before the "real" incident flag w/o worrying about being passed after the "warning" yellow.

Backing off early can be a dangerous situation, and there will always be resulting confusion and misunderstandings.

In my experience, if there is a serious incident, the corner will usually request a stationary flag at the previous station.

In a general comment- I would suggest that anyone with a competition license spend some time on a flag station and understand what goes on and what the procedures are; its a whole different optic of the sport.

In the instant before any flag comes out, drivers are racing. By definition, they will continue to race to some point. As the rules stand right now, that point is the plane of the local Yellow flag.

Any alternative transition point from 'racing' to 'not racing' has to be clear, unambiguous, and enforceable. Simply telling drivers to stop racing when they see the local Yellow is a formula for bad things to happen.

As Bob points out, when circumstances dictate, a flag station that is Waving can request a Standing Yellow at the previous station. The entire call from Station 3 (for example) would be, "2 Go Standing!" This decision is best left to the corner captain at the incident station.

As I mentioned above, a critical problem is that many drivers simply do not see, and/or respond to, the Yellow. Until that happens, all the sage advice in the world will accomplish nothing.

I have gone up and down the road with drivers about flag responses for the past several years. No sort of persuasion or appeal to sportsmanship or safety has worked. We have found that imposing severe and escalating penalties is an effective 'motivational tool'. Sad, but true.

[John Nesbitt]

On a full course caution you still are able to race to the first flag station even though they are showing double yellows. I had to have this clarified for me me several times however this is the ruling.

You were misinformed. Racing stops the instant that the Double Yellow is displayed. There is no racing to the yellow (all cars are already in a Yellow zone).

From 6.1.1.B:

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course

yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO

PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off

pace (see 6.6.2.).

NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still

the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

[Bob Wright]

Yea..until we start using modern electronic aids (on board yellow lights), we're bound by the flags and need to have enforceable rules for them.

Back straight at RAt- the yellow comes out and its a long way to that next station and there is no incident in that section of track; when do you slow down? When does that competitor tucked in behind you see the flags? When does the flagger see the violation? Remember, he/she is not looking up-track, but facing down-track so the rule of breaking the plane of the corner station is a correct one.

John- good reference for the double yellow.

[Steve Bamford]

You were misinformed. Racing stops the instant that the Double Yellow is displayed. There is no racing to the yellow (all cars are already in a Yellow zone).

From 6.1.1.B:

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course

yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO

PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off

pace (see 6.6.2.).

NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still

the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

im going by SCCA Pro rules covering F4 which are covered by FIA rules. I argued that it didn’t make sense in a meeting for ten minutes with a group of 40 plus people but I was clearly told we are to race to the plane of the first flag.