I wonder if the various factions in this fractious F500/600 community are aware of the harm they are potentially doing to the class by the seemingly constant and undignified arguing?
I wonder if the various factions in this fractious F500/600 community are aware of the harm they are potentially doing to the class by the seemingly constant and undignified arguing?
They know but don't really care. I started this just to get a feel for the F5 communities thoughts on splitting the class.Originally Posted by SEComposites
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Prepped engine with new crank and setting up and prepping the clutchs. This is not a rebuild of your engine but the purchase of a used engine then a complete rebuild and race pipe with a new crank, pistons and anything else needed as well as dyno work to optimize the combinations.
I know that this is what it takes to win the Runoffs at Laguna Seca in 2014 because that is what it cost us.
Btw the only testing we did was at Laguna Seca and Brian was fastest in every qualifying session and the race.
Sorry but the above is reality.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Sorry Cory, where did I say 2 stroke engine last one weekend?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Popcorn
Stopped for more
First I do not think the class should be split; I also believe they're not enough entries week in and week out. Given the caliber of racing at Indy I think the two platforms made it interesting.
For Daryl; I'll put on my alter ego "Scooter Rubenstien for the defense" Clint neither retook his position nor improved it 7th is not first. While the rules address the penalties to be applied during a race they allow for subjective penalty to be applied post race. Whether loop hole or intentional doesn't matter. Further once the race was over it was incumbent upon one of Clint's competitors to protest, if they had the Stewart's could simply have applied the same penalty.
Clint's love of CVTs or lack of it is easy enough to understand. Here is the rub for the 2 strokes; first unlike the 4 strokes the are carbureted and as stated by Jay the weather changes can have noticeable effect on the motor. The jetting changes may only be 1-2hp one way or the other, not a big deal to you consider CVTs. Small changes in power output may require changes to the CVT set up. If you have a change weather conditions from qualifying to the race you're going to have to make a jetting change which depending on how close you get may necessitate a change to the CVT. If you have a thick note book (like I did with my 125cc GP) it's likely to be straight forward. Now the time it takes to build up that set of tuning notes could be an issue.
i happen to love two strokes; they are cheaper, lighter and make more power for a given displacement. They are simple enough that I can put one together in my garage. The only exception is the crank (I don't have the tools) I give cranks to a friend who tuned 80cc motocross bikes for years and have him rebuild them.
What makes 4 strokes cheap for F500/600 is that squids crash 600cc sport bikes at a high rate so motors are cheap. If you actually had to rebuild them (like those of us who have 4 strokes off road bikes) you'd find them not so cheap.
I will also say that from our experience with the DSR is that the exhaust and air box make a huge difference in performance, while that is the case for all engines it's especially so motorcycle engines. There is obviously going to be a good bit of budget for initial set up.
As for the angst about the two packages, hopefully this will subside with more time; F500 put on a great show as is, so again I see no reason to change it.
2. A car that fails to start with the pace lap or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes itsgrid position and may rejoin only at the back of the field.
I'd argue that once he relinquished his grid position, he was required to start from the back. Starting 7th most certainly improved upon his required starting position.
Whether they should have or not is debatable. In my opinion they shouldn't have to. A car coming across the scales 25# or 50# light shouldn't require a competitor protest, either. That's just my opinion. Drivetrain compliance rules should require a competitor protest to help minimize witch-hunts and provide some relief to the protested when compliant.
As to what's the right thing for a competitor to do? If I were in the race group I would have considered all the factors at play and done what I deemed the right thing to do given the situation. I wasn't in the group, so I don't get to judge folks for having/not having protested.
My gut tells me that Clint probably didn't know he was supposed to start at the back. He probably knew enough to not pass anybody to regain his starting position. The alternative is to believe he knew exactly what the rule required and didn't care. If I felt that was the case I'd write the paper whether I finished 2nd or 39th
38th, .............38th..............if I fell back to the back in a 38 car field I would be 38th...........the field doesn't gain a car if one simply moves within the group......2. A car that fails to start with the pace lap or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes itsgrid position and may rejoin only at the back of the field.
I'd argue that once he relinquished his grid position, he was required to start from the back. Starting 7th most certainly improved upon his required starting position.
Whether they should have or not is debatable. In my opinion they shouldn't have to. A car coming across the scales 25# or 50# light shouldn't require a competitor protest, either. That's just my opinion. Drivetrain compliance rules should require a competitor protest to help minimize witch-hunts and provide some relief to the protested when compliant.
As to what's the right thing for a competitor to do? If I were in the race group I would have considered all the factors at play and done what I deemed the right thing to do given the situation. I wasn't in the group, so I don't get to judge folks for having/not having protested.
My gut tells me that Clint probably didn't know he was supposed to start at the back. He probably knew enough to not pass anybody to regain his starting position. The alternative is to believe he knew exactly what the rule required and didn't care. If I felt that was the case I'd write the paper whether I finished 2nd or 39th
Relax. . . I typed 39th with a smiley just for you.
Daryl I mentioned my alter ego because in actuality, after 28 years, I'm not totally OK with SCCAs system for protests. There's nothing wrong with it per se it's just that I'm not 100% on board with it. Now off on a bit of a tangent if Jeff's P2 car was 100lbs under weight I don't think I'd be able to protest it, because when someone laps the entire field it ain't the car. So in an attempt to be back on topic; I once finished ahead of the Japanese National 125 champ, his bike broke so I won, I don't going around saying I beat him because I didn't. So in the case of the F500 RunOffs I'd want to win in a head to head contest not because someone spun off on the warm up lap or stalled the car on the grid. Should someone wish to protest I'm OK with that as well.
For those of us Autocrossing the CVT works well, I auto crossed my DSR twice and there were invariably spots where it was between gears. At some point I plan to run my old F500 at a VARA event instead of the Datsun or at least for one event.
I've never run at Sears Point (I think people call Sonoma) so I don't know if it will favor one package over the other but we've now had 2 MC wins and 2 two stroke wins. It's hard to argue one package is better than the other.
True.
Jay,
Thanks for the clarification. I also paid $6k for everything you mention above, which is much more than a "prepped 593."
Regarding my "one weekend" post, I was not referring to you. Rebuilds after every weekend were mentioned in post #67.
Cory
I figured that was directed towards me. I’ve never run a 494/593 so I don’t know the rebuild schedules. The old 440s we had they had to be rebuild after each race. I assumed it was the same
Restricted Racing | Flexx Technology
Every time things die down, someone starts a new thread like this. Asking if the class should be split is just throwing gas on the embers and this is the result. We all played nice at the Runoffs, but the strong feelings on both sides are still there.
Cory
Cory I started this post because when I was at the Runoffs for the test days many 2 stroke racers asked me about splitting the class. It certainly was not my intent to start another war of words.
My apologies to all for inadvertantly restarting the war of words.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Yes and no. At some point you have to draw the line as to how much of it was the car and how much of it was the driver. No driver 100# under is winning a Majors or RunOffs anyway, way too much prep required to miss it by that much. When you lap the entire field and are 3 seconds a lap faster it's a combination of top notch equipment and top notch driver, it's not just one or the other.
In any event, I also want to win head to head. However, this game is very much about the mental preparation too, when someone makes a mental error it's part of the game. That game starts before the green flag drops.
As much as I wouldn't want to take the win away from somebody through a protest like being talked about in Clint's case, I wouldn't want to take the win, knowing that I didn't follow the rules of the game.
I've got a solution, show up to a race so you'll have the opportunity to protest something that you don't agree with. At the very least actually do something by writing the scca because this clearly brothers you . Other wise, you're just complaining about something thats never going to be changed at this point. "IF" I had picked the right lottery numbers I would be much better off financially. "IF" you were there you would've been able to have your questions answered. "IF" you contributed to this class in the form of participation you could get these questions answered. Without you being a participant you can't do anything including protest anyone. This is the main reason I'm not worried about anything you have to say because I know you'll never be in a position to protest me on your own. My suggestion, participate in the class instead of just talking about it for over 7 years. At this point you sound as if you just need a hug. On another note, if someone spun on the pace lap and fell back to 7th and still beat me .....I wouldn't complain about it. This year's competition was toughest I've seen. Barry was on his game, Jorgensen was up there as expected, Thompson was being Thompson (fast) , Mueller was as expected, and Sven was finally able to show what he was capable of. With that said, people like you Daryl will never be able to the mindset it takes to comprehend what these front Runners do. All of the top 11 knew they stood a good shot a taking this championship home. I'm sure when I fell back to seventh the front guys were probably happy but at the same time probably felt like they were just given a position. Maybe not,maybe so but I know these guys and they're so competitive they wouldn't have wanted to win a race under those circumstances simply because it wouldn't be a challenge for them . Me falling back to 7th was a disadvantage. If Steve would've spun I would've waived him on and told the Stewarts that I had fluid come off of my car resulting in his spin for the simple fact I want to beat Steve, not the system. I know you can't seem to grasp that but it was the same thing as me having a penalty added to my qualifying time resulting in me starting 7th.
Last edited by clint; 10.13.17 at 12:33 PM.
I raced for a couple of decades, never had to protest anybody. I'm not complaining, I'm debating. Forums are for the sharing of information as well as opinions.
I likely would have chosen the class when the MC package was first being introduced had there been more than 1 or 2 F5's to race against out here. I got a hug this morning after a very good nights' sleep. Thanks though.
At this point there's no debate.
Now you sound almost as ignorant as you are charming. The MC is a great package. It's too bad they don't have somebody with a bit more diplomacy to champion their cause.
https://www.scca.com/videos/2033633
A real show for our popcorn!
Anyone who knows me doesn't expect any and If I'm ignorant please educate me so you can point out where what I posted was Ignorant.
Just as an aside to Tom Grossman and Clint McMahan this from Wikipedia:
The House of Stuart, originally Stewart and, in Gaelic, Stiùbhart, was a European royal house that originated in Scotland. The dynasty's patrilineal Breton ancestors had held the office of High Steward of Scotland since the 12th century, after arriving by way of Norman England. The royal Stewart line was founded by Robert II, and they were Kings and Queens of Scots from the late 14th century until the union with England in 1707. Mary, Queen of Scots, was brought up in France, where she adopted the French spelling of the name, Stuart. Her son, James VI of Scotland, inherited the thrones of England and Ireland upon the death of Elizabeth I in 1603. Except for the period of the Commonwealth, 1649–1660, the Stuarts were monarchs of the British Isles and its growing empire, until the death of Queen Anne in 1714.
I think you both were referring to Stewards of the Meet.
Jackie Stewart is royalty and a friend
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Making the assumption that I, and people like myself, do not comprehend what front runners do is ignorant. Don't confuse knowledge with desire. Plenty of folks chased the dream when they were younger. At some point many decide to enjoy the sport as a hobby and to enjoy it at a level that is not too taxing on their time, their family, and their wallet. Not because they don't know what it takes, but rather they likely know just what it takes and the effort:reward ratio doesn't make sense to them. Which brings us full circle to help get this thread back on topic.
Don't split the classes. Eventually more 2s fans will migrate to the MC package. They'll do so because it's less taxing on their time and wallet when looking at the drivetrain side of the equation. Freeing up money and time for all the other demands of their program. They will either become more competitive or the same competitiveness for a whole lot less effort. Either way it's a win.
If you do split the classes, I believe both classes die out and it's too cool of package and bang for the buck to let that happen. Most folks justify the demands of the sport because of the enjoyment they get out of competing. If you don't have folks to compete against the fun factor plummets. It's not about the ultimate performance. There's a tipping point when it comes to participation. Contrast SRF3 and SM with FA and FC for example.
ig·no·rant
?i?n?r?nt/Submit
adjective
lacking knowledge or awareness in general;
I have awareness and knowledge that you and people like yourself aren't able to comprehend what the front runners in this class do. If you can show me a results page with your name on it that says F500 and youre in the top 25% of the class standings I will retract my statement. It's not ignorant to say that you and people like you doesn't understand it, its a fact. Now if you would like to start sticking to facts let's do so. Here's a fact for you, I fell off the pace lap, started in 7th, won the race, was penalised after a lengthy conversation with the SOM , after the penalty was assessed I won by 1.1 sec. You don't have a argument because the decision was made and finalized. That means it's done and over with..... If you had been there as a competitor wether it was a front runner or towards the back you could've received a answer through the protest process or by simply asking the SOM why they made the decision. At the time they assessed the penalty I didn't know if I had enough of a lead to still remain in first and neither did the SOM. SO, want answers and a say ? Do what everyone else does that wants that same privalidge and participate in the event. Stating opinions, firing back and forth with the one person that's going to give it right back to you on forums, hoping to drive,wanting to drive or not even being a crew member at the very least doesn't give you a say or a place for your opinion in any class .If you would like to have a opinion without participating, do what others did and start your own forum...........just keep in mind that F500.US is already taken and has the majority of the non competitors in its corner so you might have to offer up some sort of promotional item to get them to come to your site.
Perhaps you two could continue this in private without lowering the tone of this forum!?
Give it a rest Clint. The F500 crowd has some very hard working and dedicated folks running up front. To think that's unique to the class and that unless somebody has participated in that same class they are ignorant of what kind of commitment and effort is required is not only ignorant, it's absurd.
Let's get back on topic.
The f500 crowd, I agree, not you
That is why I have 600 it allows for more time to be spent on the rest of the car and the driver. Its easy and cheaper for most to improve the driver. Getting a driver to admit that is the hard part.
I wish they would split it. The stupidity about it would stop.
how much longer can everyone keep up the arguing? After reading posts on here, I don’t ever want to meet half of you, lol.
Restricted Racing | Flexx Technology
Barry my driving is flawless, is to, is to, is to, is to..........infinity. One of the side benefits of instructing is it's made me hyper aware of my driving, often I'll do something and instantly think "I tell students not to do that" same goes for set-up.
Aye Captain, it matters nawt whether it's Jackie Stewart, Stewardess or Stewards I'm listening and or abide by what they're saying to avoid embaressment, air marshalls and keep my competition license. Oh and for the record; Ware Ay-rish, soo way doe tink mowch bowt hays-tray ov Scott-Lin. Erin Go Brah!
Back to splitting the class; it is correct that many of the 2 stroke drivers would prefer a separate class but the fact still remains there just aren't enough cars to support two separate classes. In the last 4 years F5 is averaging 19 cars (Indy sqeued this) so would we end up with 9-10 Rotax cars and 9-10 MC cars with neither having enough entries to make a national championship.
It's a very small group that fight. The class is awesome! The cars are cheap, sound great or smell great are very fun to drive. I had two 2 strokes come by late at night at the runoffs and help me change the engine after it blew up. The next morning a few 600s came and asked if they could help, I had even more ask if I needed any parts or of they could help. I could see the argument for splitting if we had 80 cars at the runoffs and 30 cars at regional races but we don't. Could the rules use a small tweak? Maybe. Splitting the class at this point doesn't make a lot sense.
I started this post just to try to see if there was a consensus on the subject of splitting the class. After adding the many posts I this it is best to keep the class together as you simply cannot go faster for less money spent.
Can the forum manager please delete this entire thread?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Na. Leave it here as a reminder to people that pissing matches rarely produce anything good - other than some amusement to those who know better.
If they split 2-stroke and 4-stroke, how does anyone think either class would survive with enough numbers to be a runoffs class?
Basically, 40 drivers signed up for the runoffs (2 dropped out before the event). There were 42 different drivers that drove in majors events, and at least one of those didn't qualify for the runoffs. So, almost everyone who could go to the runoffs did go. 13-14 of those were MC powered, very close to 1/3.... There were several people that came out of semi-retirement to qualify and race at Indy, so we're looking at a class that realistically has less than 40 active drivers.
Next year, with the runoffs in CA, it is doubtful that more than a dozen or so people will go... I'm sure it'll be down a lot for every class, but f500 will stand out as a class with few west coast drivers and therefore probably a bigger drop in numbers than most other classes. With a split, there won't be 10 of either class and therefore no national champion...
With the demise of both classes looming on the horizon, how many new people will buy cars and join either class? It'll just be a few years of stagnation and then SCCA won't have to deal with those annoying f500 people's bickering...
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