What are your thoughts on splitting F500 into 2 classes? F500 for 2 strokes and F600 for the four strokes.
F500 future
What are your thoughts on splitting F500 into 2 classes? F500 for 2 strokes and F600 for the four strokes.
Last edited by Jnovak; 09.28.17 at 8:45 PM.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
The F500 Ad Hoc Committee made that recommendation to the FSRAC and it was rejected. Why are you asking?
Cory
Split them
Split them in two, thats the right thing to do. They will never be made equal. Heck the adhoc committee put out a questionnaire to the F500 community and it was pretty decisive to split MC cars and make them their own class.
James
It's funny that no one hears a peep from you until you take a sizable whooping at the Runoffs. Of course you want it split. What was your excuse for not being able to stay with the top two strokes? Are they somehow creating a advantage with their drivetrain? Oh that's rights, it's the same as yours....,..Originally Posted by jrweida
I wanted them to be separate classes from day one but the club said no way.
I am just tired of the continued complaints and think that they should be separate classes. I think that 600s could be the future of low cost open wheel racing.
Last edited by Jnovak; 10.04.17 at 12:02 AM.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I will only say this once, my personal opinion is that if the class splits the two strokes will die. Even though I don't have very much respect for the whine boxes of the class (the vast majority) there's guys in the class that I do hold a lot of respect for and wouldn't want to see that happen to them . I can personally say that when someone tells me the class can't be balanced I laugh for two reasons. One, I can't understand how people can stay in denial for this long and two I have proof that a two stroke is as fast as a four stroke in a straight line from the start of a slow corner all the way to the end of a straight. I can also post video of a prominent two stroke drive that's ALWAYS complaining about a four stroke leaving him in a straight but then him killing them in and through a turn. We have a name for that driver but unfortunately due to forum rules aren't allowed to share it publicly. It's typically the whine boxes that can't drive from the beginning thats always complaining, however this particular driver is the exception. My suggestion.........do your homework,work harder than the next guy, prepare your car to its limits and DRIVE.
I think there was way more 2 strokes than 4 strokes at the runoffs.
The fastest 2 stroke in the draft was 138 and the fastest 4 stroke was 144 basically no draft. It takes a lot of skill to go fast in a straight line. Like always your comments are classy.
Where are you getting those? My fastest was 141.6.
Sorry Barry 143
Not questioning the data I just didn't know where you got it from. That's all. I know we have top end over the 2 strokes but we need it compete over the course of the lap. The lighter cars have shorter braking zones and are better in the twisty parts. I was looking at race top end.
You are looking at Clints top end after he got a draft whole way I assume he wasnt close any other lap
Last edited by bluterek155; 10.02.17 at 12:48 PM.
Split. I don't think the MC crowd could support a class on their own and I don't think the rest of the class (those with 494 and budget friendly 593 builds) will be happy being class filler for much longer.
Why?
Why bring this up... again?
We've been down this road too many times already and it does nothing but make everyone mad. The SCCA has already made the ruling - we are F500. period.
We just had a 38 car field at the Runoffs with good racing from P2-P38. One car/driver did a great job preparing "the package" and won by a strong margin - not a record margin, but way out front. Lap times were very similar regardless of the engine package - at least between the 600cc 2-strokes and 4-strokes. Talented drivers with well prepared machines finished up front.
Leave it alone. Stop stirring the pot.
George Bugg
-----------------------------
NovaKar
F600
The scca have said numerous times we're not splitting. I'm with George all you guys are doing is stirring the pot. Let's Pretend the motorcycles weren't there instead of the Clint show and a great battle for second and third and fourth and fifth and sixth and every other position after that we would have had the Steve Thompson show.
Never said they were. Have you ever heard the phrase "the truth is ugly" ? Btw, the day the pole was set Thompson and I was only .307 mph apart on top speed. The fastest four stroke was 139.292 and he only turned a 1:44.831. Top speed is a factor that most people (like you) don't know how to analyze. You think everything is all about top speed. You think that you kill the four stroke in a turn and then they walk you down a straight. It's not true, if you could drive a car you would know that. I'm sorry that you don't know how to tune your clutches well enough to produce the top end that the rest of the two strokes do in the top of the order but don't take It out on the four strokes. It's either that or you can't manage to go through a corner fast enough to produce that kind of top speed at the end of the straits. Aaron had 4.77 mph on me but was 1.6sec slower. Thompson had 3.86 mph on you but you were 1.4 slower. So as you can see your top speed argument isn't going anywhere.
AVERAGE - Speed Trap measurement from the SCCA Race cards - Top 10 only
McMahan - 136.4397368 - MC SC nose
deVries - 134.4330526 - MC SC nose
Thompson - 132.2376316 - 2 stroke SC nose
Mueller - 130.4925789 - 2 stroke Narrow nose
Dehm - 134.116 - 2 stroke SC nose
Jondal - 126.7311579 - 2 stroke Narrow nose
Ellis - 140.4812632 - MC Narrow nose
Jorgensen - 133.5715263 - 2 stroke SC nose
Brothers - 129.9624211 - 2 stroke SC nose
Brayton - 130.3090526 - MC Narrow nose
Enough 4stroke vs 2 stroke
When are we going to talk about the disparity the 593 and the rest of the Rotaxes? My research tells me it's the dominant 2stroke.
To stay on topic, I will agree that two stroke may well fade away.
Ya gotta love the snipeing between competitors.......
Did you manage to find out the "average speed " coming off of the last turn? Or are you going to just continue to post information that doesn't have anything to do with the end result?
I can only look at information that is available. If you want to publish all your data be my guest!
You won Clint! Congratulations.
If you can't handle it, it is your own problem.
*graps popcorn*
Dan,
Great to see you and catch up at the F500 party. Based on my personal experience, I still think the 494 and 493 should both have a 775 lb minimum weight, but there are many people in the class who believe that a properly tuned 494 at 800 lbs is still competitive. There are always variables beyond engine choice, but the top 10 at the Runoffs seems to validate that point of view.
3rd - 593
4th - 494
5th - 593
6th - 494
8th - 593
9th - 593
Cory
So in other words, don't worry about how the top drivers were able to post top speeds but rather just post up what they are because it makes it look like the MC cars have a top speed advantage......... When you can post up what speed the drivers are coming off of the corner at I will respect your posts. Untill then I think you're just stirring stuff up all the while needing some courses to lessen the "challenges" you clearly need to overcome.
When you get a measurement of cars coming off the turn before the speed trap let me know. Remember you won convincingly DESPITE not being fastest through the speed trap, so obviously you were making time all over the course.
*graps popcorn*
Getting pretty funny, isn't it.
That's the only point I wanted to have someone admit to. Right now everyone thinks that the reason the four strokes are winning or are so fast is because of top end. When you post ONLY top end numbers and nothing else it gives the view that that the four strokes have no other way of winning other than to use the top speed. I get pretty irritated when someone says that they catch the four strokes in a turn but then the four strokes leave them in a straight away. This past week has highlighted this isn't the case through sector times, videos and eye witness accounts.
Check this video out. Car with camera is MC car, and car behind blue with fluorescent yellow on it is 2 stroke (National Champion).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11lu...ature=youtu.be
This past week highlighted YOU were leaving everyone - 2 Stroke F500's, 4 Stroke MC F500's, Ford & Honda Fit FF's behind - everywhere on the track. Top end is a part of the equation that can't be discounted - your top end was measurable faster than the 2-strokes, but not the quickest of the MC's.
Write a letter to the CRB Cory
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
James for what it's worth I also out accelerated Clint and Sven and darn near everyone else (you can see that in the 1st clip on youtube). The blade is lowest drag car out there and I geared perfrctly for Indy. I was also very close to minium weight and I know a some of the others were not close, I am willing to bet Clint was in the same boat as me from his late braking moves. If he was way over weight and still able to win like that we are all in trouble. Racers have to take advantages of the rules they are given.
I looked at theoretical best lap (best segment times added together) and ranked them. The difference between Barry (MC) and Thompson (593) is .078 seconds, both ~4 tenths behind Clint. And there's no "clumping" of the data around any one particular engine or nose configuration. That seems pretty even to my engineering mind.
Based on theoretical best laps, the finish order would have been:
1. McMahan (MC)
2. Luterek (MC)
3. Thompson (593)
4. de Vries (MC)
5 Mueller (494)
6 Ellis (MC)
7 Diehm (593)
8 Jondal (494)
9 Stewart (MC)
10 Jorgensen (593)
11 Brothers (593)
12 Brayton (MC)
Last edited by GBugg; 10.04.17 at 3:17 PM.
George Bugg
-----------------------------
NovaKar
F600
I wouldn't exactly call .307 mph "leaving everyone" as a matter of fact I would call that DAMN GOOD PARITY. Of course people like yourself will continue to argue wind,track conditions, setup,driver error......oh wait a minute, this was done on the same session and those were the pole and outside pole drivers...........next excuse/skew of the facts chuck please sir. Bottom line, when a two stroke is running right ( which is the main reason I went to a four stroke by not having to worry about all of the variables to cause inconsistencies ) ITS ON PAR WITH THE FOUR STROKES. If you can't comprehend that then find someone to explain it to you and learn how to deal with. Don't try to skew FACTS. Also if you look at the videos you will see that I was able out brake Thompson going into T1 WITHOUT smoking and flat spotting my tires. Can you explain that? My car is heavier, I out broke him, I didn't flat spot tires (by the way that's bad in case you didn't know. It reduces grip in corners) and I kept my position going through T1. Look at the videos and see how many times he did that. After the 8th time I stopped counting simply because at that point the tire is NO LONGER ROUND IT A OCTAGON shape which results in such a decrease of grip that it doesn't matter how hard you drive you're now always going to be behind in the corners. Sure you can continue to go deep in the braking zones giving the appearance that you're "catching them in the corners" but the truth is that they're already back on the gas 1-2 seconds before you resulting in a higher mph at the end of the straight. Chuck, you should try this sometime I guarantee you that your LAP TIME will be faster .
Eating Popcorn
Like Richard (R. Pare) I have just been sitting here eating popcorn and watching the fur fly. Totally ambivalent observer. I would say this to all of you who do have a stake in this. While splitting the class in two might seem like a good idea, it would appear to this observer that you would be taking a relatively healthy class and making two marginal ones. 4 strokes and 2 strokes need each other. Instead of bickering why not try to find some common ground? It would seem that there is fairly good parity already if anything MAYBE very minor tweeking?
Good luck to all of you, whatever happens I sincerely hope it works out to the betterment of the participants. Now, I'm going back to munching!
Check this video out. Car with camera is MC car, and car in front that its chasing down black with Weida apartments on the side of it is a two stroke (national champion)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F0d9fN6k3Q
What you will see is that the camera car that weighs more is not only equal to the black car in a straight line but it also out brakes the black car and also out corners the black car. Of course there's going to 50 different reasons as to why and how this happened......
Last edited by clint; 10.04.17 at 11:29 PM.
It really is. This is the strangest group I've ever seen..... Lol
The real way to average speed is to not include the fastest and the slowest as they are caused by traffic conditions (draft and traffic). Try that and post it please.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
As long as the popcorn is popping. . . I'm wondering how come folks in this thread aren't questioning a 10 second penalty for failure to start the race from the back of the pack.
I'm confident that absent any bad luck getting through traffic, Clint would have been top 3 by end of lap 2. But rules are rules, why that penalty? Convenient maximum round number without changing outcome? Precedent? The right thing to do?
Seems to be lots of emotion over HP disparity and a MPH here or there given all the variables. Yet, no concern over a 10 second penalty for starting a race 30+ positions ahead of where the rules dictate you start?
Try posting on the other forum. You're more likely to get a response over thereSeems to be lots of emotion over HP disparity and a MPH here or there given all the variables. Yet, no concern over a 10 second penalty for starting a race 30+ positions ahead of where the rules dictate you start?
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