FV disc brakes

[jpetillo]

1) Aero masking of the caliper: Using 4.5" wheels and Wilwood 4 piston calipers as found on the Varacins system.... the the caliper at the front sticks out .25" beyond the tire sidewall, the rear caliper is flush with the tire sidewall.

2) I have often wondered if the leading brake shoes of our drum systems are not slow to release because they are self energizing once they come in contact with the drums.

Brian

Good point on 2). I've often worried about the same thing - the self-energizing brakes not necessarily wanting to let go.

John

[problemchild]

What a great time for the class! All those people that worked and pushed so that the introduction of disc brakes could grow the class must be excited. For under $3000 dollars from a single source supplier, a dozen or so wealthy FV racers can now escape the horrific experience of adjusting brake shoes. Time to move on to steering racks!

[Hardingfv32]

Yes, you can project this as a bad decision if the only fact you base it on is cost.

The facts are:

1) It takes a $2600 disc brake system to meet the SCCA FV track specs and retain the current VW wheels. These restrictions are what the majority of FV competitors wanted.

2) The disc package would have been about 40% cheaper if wider track specs were adopted, but this would have mean that competitors not changing to discs would have to modify their cars to make use of the wider track specs.

3) FV competitor are not required to change to disc brakes or make any modifications to their cars. This was a priority that was of more importance than cost.

Brian

[problemchild]

As a general rule, any decision about FV rules that is not based on cost, is a bad decision.
Only rule changes which will reduce costs should even ever be discussed.

If I knew somebody with a pig, who spent $2600 for a tube of lipstick, I would call that a bad decision too.
It will still be a pig, regardless of the quantity or quality of lipstick applied.

Anybody that thinks $2600 for disc brakes on a FV is good for the class is in the wrong class. There are many classes where $2600 would be a reasonable cost. If these people moved on, and the stupid rules they want, were removed, the class could be affordable for regular people, and much more sustainable. With a proper rule package for existing cars, $2600 should be an operational budget for the season. Anybody that was involved in getting this rule in place, should remove themselves from their leadership position. It is blasphemy!

[B Farnham]

As more manufacturers start to build these the costs will come down with competition.

Remember this has to do with cost savings over the long haul with pads and rotors over the shoes and drums. Plus the ease of maintenance.

The tire is the limiting factor in braking force so guys can keep their drums and be just as competitive.

[Hardingfv32]

As a general rule, any decision about FV rules that is not based on cost, is a bad decision.

This is the precise reason the class is stuck in the past with parts that are hard to maintain and acquire. No one in the past would change anything because by definition in would mean additional 'current' costs. No thought given to what it might do to future costs.

The conversion to disc brakes in this case is in fact voluntary. Competitor do not need to accept addition costs.

The discs, calipers & pads for the Varacins system are all off the shelf retail pieces. They are not going to get cheaper. All the other parts are made specifically for the FV application. They will never be any production volume to speak of after this spring when everyone has made their purchases for the 2019 season. These parts will not get any cheaper.

Brian

[problemchild]

This is the precise reason the class is stuck in the past with parts that are hard to maintain and acquire.

These parts will not get any cheaper.

Yes, and after a 55 year commitment to the status quo, changing the plan now is ludicrous.

Yes, anybody that would consider manufacturing custom parts for this size potential market at less than $650/corner is pretty stupid. The price will only go up. And one must assume that with developmental costs and update costs, the 2nd batch may end up having a net cost under $3K, but the first batch won't. With driveline parts, it often takes 3 generations to work the bugs out.

Economy priced single source spec brake shoes were the obvious solution to FV brake price issues. While the disc brake concept was an amusing alternative, the concept should have been immediately abandoned once it was apparent that only custom parts would satisfy the target objective given by the FV community. That it was pushed through to this create this situation of $2600 custom parts from a single source ....... is just obscene. Anyone party to this conclusion needs to remove themselves from any participation in future rule-making activities.

[Daryl DeArman]

If I knew somebody with a pig, who spent $2600 for a tube of lipstick, I would call that a bad decision too.
It will still be a pig, regardless of the quantity or quality of lipstick applied!

Aww, but it might be a better looking and easier to maintain pig. If you got to bring a pig to the prom might as well put her in lipstick.

As far at the "wrong class" comment....I see a chasm in costs between top shelf FV and top shelf FF, a chasm that $2600 doesn't even begin to bridge. For the people who feel the same way as me, what do you suggest? F5/F6 could fit the bill, but with nobody to race against, I don't care how cheap or how fast. I suggest many feel the same way or F5/F6 numbers would be much better.

[FVRacer21]

Before we call Armageddon and sell all our vees...

1. This is the first system, others have not checked in yet,
2. We don’t know if it is better or worse - if same or worse, what is big deal? If better then we will have to deal with it.
3. $2600 is for complete car - $1300 for front only - expensive but much closer to if upgrading a worn out existing unit.
We have a good supplier of rear drums - but not fronts.

Mike put his money where his mouth was - my only comment was somewhere he said he would release the drawings to others....but nothing he did is beyond the range of many manufacturers.

and as far as the steering rack - I have the proposal written - the concept proven by F First and every other FV around the world. And making things cheaper? - what does a Citation or Womer system cost?

Chris Z

[problemchild]

As far at the "wrong class" comment....I see a chasm in costs between top shelf FV and top shelf FF, a chasm that $2600 doesn't even begin to bridge. For the people who feel the same way as me, what do you suggest?

In the old days ..... as soon as a FV racer could afford to, he moved to FF ..... as soon as a FF could afford to, he moved to F2000 .... F2000 to FA (or FB before that). It was nothing about making it up a ladder to Pro racing. It was just the proper thing to do. It kept each class in a window of cost. FV lost its way in the 90s when young FV racers grew into wealthy middle-aged men who had lots of money to spend on lots of tires and other whizzy bits that were becoming fashionable in faster classes. The FV leadership of the time, who were mostly vendors, and tire dealers, chose not to clamp down on spending but promote it. Just as FV was recovering, Harding's Mannygate hit and another dark decade followed. Well-organized groups have done wonderful things locally over the last decade but the overall National decline continues.

Once the barn door has been opened, you won't get the horses back in the barn. But maintaining the fencing around the barn would be nice! Ideally, people would learn from past mistakes, but that does not appear to be the case. In the post above, Chris defends the obscene process with, "Yes its $650/corner but one end is only $1300." He seems to be expecting a wave of vendors to start producing custom brake components for less. I struggle to believe that vendors would come to play, even if they could supply the entire FV community. The only way to beat that pricing would be off-shore manufacturing to scale ..... which seems unlikely.

Yes, I think that people that want disc brakes and steering racks should go race a car built around those .... and with other race car stuff. There are currently a couple hundred VFF and CF drivers spending about the same as regional FV drivers and much less than the serious FV drivers. FV needs to get and stay less expensive than these classes competing for the same market share. Spending money to upgrade with components that are clearly inferior to those competing classes is a losing proposition. Much better to cut operating costs and reestablish FV as the clear lowest cost option. This current nonsense will sabotage the benefits that should be seen with the long overdue spec tire.

[FVRacer21]

In 2005 we tried to start Club Vee in the NE. You have to run either the Canadian Tire Package, a new set of H60 Hoosiers or the equivalent Goodyears (600?) and stock FV front shocks or steering dampers.

We figured that would save the average FV driver thousands of $$$ a year. The result - 4 cars all year.....

The average FV driver seems to be okay with thousands of $$ of Shocks, radios and data acquisition. The drivers who do not, seem to be okay running competitively without the above.

Racing is not cheap - we in the NE have been able to get more new drivers each year by:
1. Making sure new drivers buy quality cars
2. Guiding them in setup and assembly - even doing alignments at race weekends
3. Loaning tires, suspension parts, carbs, exhaust - basically anything but engines (which most don't have a spare to lend)
4. Making sure they have a quality engine

This saves the beginning driver from making thousands of $ of mistakes right from the start.

We do whatever it takes to make sure a new (and old) FV racer has a quality time - as they say in that cc commercial - that is priceless.

This is what we are facing over the next 2 years

2019 - all racers have to by new tires at $800 a set (and maybe one or 2 spares)
2019 - Disc brakes (optional)
2020 - many of us will have to by new Hoosier rains. ($800 a set)

We had a meeting earlier in November with about 30 attending to figure out how we can do this locally and amortize, not just those who bought tires at the end of the year before the announcement was made. (potentially costing $$) but those who are running on takeoffs and might be hard to even spend the $800 if only running one or two races. Plans are still being finalized.

If we found that disc brakes were an advantage, we could work within our organization resolve that.

The disc brake roi is over several years, but no different than a new set of Penske Blacks, a new manifold or heads, or new bodywork. People understand that you have to take this into account in any racing class. We just try to guide our members how to get the most bang for their buck.

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

In the old days ..... as soon as a FV racer could afford to, he moved to FF ..... as soon as a FF could afford to, he moved to F2000 .... F2000 to FA (or FB before that). It was nothing about making it up a ladder to Pro racing. It was just the proper thing to do. It kept each class in a window of cost. FV lost its way in the 90s when young FV racers grew into wealthy middle-aged men who had lots of money to spend on lots of tires and other whizzy bits that were becoming fashionable in faster classes. The FV leadership of the time, who were mostly vendors, and tire dealers, chose not to clamp down on spending but promote it. Just as FV was recovering, Harding's Mannygate hit and another dark decade followed. Well-organized groups have done wonderful things locally over the last decade but the overall National decline continues.

For the most part I agree. FV wasn't on my radar in the old days so I can't argue tire and spendy-whizzy bit wars prior to the 90's.

Yes, I think that people that want disc brakes and steering racks should go race a car built around those .... and with other race car stuff. There are currently a couple hundred VFF and CF drivers spending about the same as regional FV drivers and much less than the serious FV drivers. FV needs to get and stay less expensive than these classes competing for the same market share. Spending money to upgrade with components that are clearly inferior to those competing classes is a losing proposition. Much better to cut operating costs and reestablish FV as the clear lowest cost option. This current nonsense will sabotage the benefits that should be seen with the long overdue spec tire.

Wherever FV is competing for the same demographic it is a fraction of the cost of FF. Regional FV vs. regional FF can be done with the same level of competitiveness for less than half in equipment and upkeep. Vintage FV vs. vintage FF, again a fraction of the cost. Run-Offs winning caliber effort FV vs. FF, again a fraction. Where their costs are substantially similar is the mid-pack and back. I can do that in either class, at any level for substantially similar costs. . . and those folks aren't going to buy the $2600 brake package unless they want to.

[S Lathrop]

The big issue facing FV going forward is parts that are available and suitable for racing. The front spindle issue was solved for a while and maybe there will be a new supply in the future. Rear brake drums were a similar problem that found a solution in an after makret part built specially for FV. The next item on the list is front drums/wheel hubs. It is my understanding the supply of those parts is becoming an issue.

To build 1 FV, is not such a big issue getting suitable parts. But to build 5 or 10 cars is nearly impossible from a parts supply of the VW parts. At least the problem is as difficult as just building the parts that combine with the VW parts to make a car.

A number of years ago, I built a new design Citation FV. Getting parts for that car was no easy task. The steering box in particular came from a private stash of German made parts. The off the self stuff was not even usable to push the car around the shop. Luckly enough, you only need one steering box per car and it should last the life of the car.

The move to disk brakes was simply a recognition of the current and future supply problems for existing systems. The big down side of this process is the ever increasing cost of building and racing a FV, which is rising faster than inflation alone would produce.

I and another car builder have spend several years toying with a new car design that would be an alternative to FF (performance level) but at the cost equal to or lower than a new FV today. It is quite doable. Think current technology (F1000) but like 1970's FF and all FVs where all the cars would be built from a common box of parts. And multiple builders. During the 1970s, because of VW and their sponsorship of FSV (air cooled) the Lola and Zink FFs, in particular, had a bunch of common parts. And if it was not VW parts then it was Triumph parts. It may seem improbable but I think I can make the entire front suspension, wheel to wheel for close to the cost a complete FV front end, with disk brakes.

[S Lathrop]

As an aside to this thread, I have been asked how to start in road racing in the US and I have given the same advise to the several people making the inquire.

Start in FV. The skill set that FV emphasizes and requires will be valuable throughout you racing career and if you get to Indy, some of those skills will be immensely valuable and those skills are best learned in FV. Second, FV is not all that hard to drive so the level of perfection required in the class is super important and there are many more good FV drivers than any other class I participated in. So any FV race you go to you will get a learning experience second to none. One of today's top Indy car driver started in FV.

[Hardingfv32]

Economy priced single source spec brake shoes were the obvious solution to FV brake price issues. While the disc brake concept was an amusing alternative, the concept should have been immediately abandoned ....

There are only two suppliers of FV 'racing' brake shoes. Neither would be classed as 'economical'.

A spec brake shoe would not have solved the maintenance issue that many active competitors feel they have. Reduced maintenance was the 'top' priority regarding the disc brake topic. Again, this is not a required update. Competitors must review the cost/benefit factors as they pertain to their particular situation. This is not a lot different from deciding whether you farm out other maintenance on your car.

Contact Al Varacins and he will provide the drawings for you. If you have the materials the parts are easy (not fast) to machine.

Brian

[Jphoenix]

Disc brakes from Speedsport Engineering installation page on my website: http://www.jimphoenix.com/new-fv-cha...v-disc-brakes/

its truly amazing zing how nice the pedal feels, literally moves fractions of an inch, feels much different from the drums. Haven’t set the bias yet, I suspect that will be very sensitive, much more so than the drums.

[jpetillo]

Jim, nice job - thanks for posting.

[Matt Clark]

Disc brakes from Speedsport Engineering installation page on my website: http://www.jimphoenix.com/new-fv-cha...v-disc-brakes/

its truly amazing zing how nice the pedal feels, literally moves fractions of an inch, feels much different from the drums. Haven’t set the bias yet, I suspect that will be very sensitive, much more so than the drums.

Those look pretty sharp on the car. Now if we could just get them in black. lol

I don't think I have seen a final price listed anywhere.... what does the final production set cost?

[Jphoenix]

With floating rear discs ($200) and shipping to WA, $3028.00.

[Matt Clark]

wow. those are beautiful parts, but... ouch.
guess I am running drums for a while yet. lol

[problemchild]

$3000 should be a season operational budget for an average FV club racer.
Nothing good can come from "progress" like this!

[FVRacer21]

$3000 should be a season operational budget for an average FV club racer.
Nothing good can come from "progress" like this!

Neither is
$3000 worth of shocks,
$1500 worth of digital dashes,
$1000 radio systems
$1000 data acquisition systems

But nobody (but me) complained about that......

ChrisZ

[Hardingfv32]

But none of these things, including the disc brakes, is required to win a race. You have to spend wisely if your budget is limited.

This is not a spec class. If you want or need restrictions go to SRF3.

Brian

[problemchild]

Neither is
$3000 worth of shocks,
$1500 worth of digital dashes,
$1000 radio systems
$1000 data acquisition systems

But nobody (but me) complained about that......

ChrisZ

So because we already have stupid unnecessary things in the class, most of which were allowed before "life-support" status ..... we should now allow more stupid unnecessary things. With that attitude, I am glad you are not in a leadership role. Clearly we have not learned from the last 3 decades of mistakes made.

All efforts need to be to return the class to entry level status for working class people.

BTW. If Varacins has these on his car at the Runoffs, then the class has failed in allowing a "no performance advantage" rule. As long as he has drums on his car, the rule was successful ..... in application ...... but still stupid. That will be the test! And I will not be surprised if some perennial frontrunners are missing from the Runoffs this year because of the rule ..... whether based on reality or perception.

Nothing good will come from this!

[B Farnham]

The Sebring major was won by a car with Drums when another car had discs. The car with discs wasnt seconds faster or unbeatable but things were equal.

For my generation and the future generations we didn't grow up with drums and have no desire to mess with them.

As said before the tire is the limiting factor. I dont want to have to have my drums cut to match the pads, set them after each session and have to buy two sets of brake shoes each season through one supplier that has a monopoly. Hell I can't even find someone local to me who can turn down drums as the last guy that did stopped doing it last year.

I'll be at the VIR major with drums on my car and fully expect to have an advantage over the disc guys as I'm sure they still haven't figured them out yet.

The doom and gloom talk on this forum does more harm than allowing discs in. Those lurking the forums see those comments and go another direction. If you dont want to buy 3k in discs you can still run your drums and believe it or not you'll be just as competitive! The front running guys are going to switch for ease of maintenance, not for an advantage, it gives us more time between sessions to focus on other parts of the car.

FV is and will still be the best entry level class and the best bang for your buck. Where else can you buy a purpose built race car for 5k and go racing?

[Hardingfv32]

As long as he has drums on his car...

Without a doubt, Varacins will have discs. The whole point of all their effort to provide disc brakes for the class is to reduce their drum brake maintenance. They both want nothing to do with drum brakes.

Again, you have to be a smart consumer. Moving on perceptions is not smart consumption.

Brian

[problemchild]

I may have been born yesterday ....... but I'm not buying that load of manure.

Somehow I think young people would be much more impressed with dropping operational costs 50% than adding disc brakes for 62% additional cost on the $5K car they just bought.

BTW, My generation did not grow up with drum brakes, air-cooled engines, swing-axle transmissions, 4" wheels, torsion beam front suspensions, etc. We raced FV because it was the only thing we could afford and had nothing to do with technology. We would not have been able to do that today.

Nothing good will come from this!

[B Farnham]

The young people have posted on this topic and in this thread. We didn't grow up with drums so we have a different perspective, they dont make cars anymore with 4 wheel drums and there are reasons as to why.

I'll say it one more time, if you dont want to switch to discs then no problem! You'll be just as competitive and will have just as much fun. But for those that dont want to deal with drums we now have a new option and it is more appealing to the future FV racers out there. There is no increased cost, people can run their cars in 2019 in the same spec as 2018.

The cats out of the bag and it's already happening so making it sound like FVs demise doesn't do any good.

There isn't much more to be said but good luck to everyone this year and happy racing!

[FVRacer21]

Disc brakes from Speedsport Engineering installation page on my website: http://www.jimphoenix.com/new-fv-cha...v-disc-brakes/

its truly amazing zing how nice the pedal feels, literally moves fractions of an inch, feels much different from the drums. Haven’t set the bias yet, I suspect that will be very sensitive, much more so than the drums.

Thanks for the update - sometimes it is tough being the first person to try something. I might have jumped in but first have to repair damage from a crash in the last race of 2018. I am waiting to see what the performance is like and would probably start with just a front conversion. if the cost is $3000 for both, fronts would be about $1500. Right now looking at QUIXOTE RACING, redoing front brakes could be: *
Drums $120.00
Shoes $137.00
Ft Cylinders $35.00
Backing plates $90.00 (used only)

So you can still redo a front end for $400.

Plus as people convert then used parts will come on the market.

* I assume other suppliers about the same and the variable is drums from $60. to $100 each .

So the difference of $1100 is big, but I wonder if we have seen the best price yet.

ChrisZ

[JerryH]

I have stayed out of this conversation because I am no longer involved in FV.

However......I was deeply involved some years ago....,.and......like Steve Lathrop...... i recommend the class to every young driver who is serious about learning how to drive a race car competitively.

But....FV is dying.......why? I think it's because it has become way to expensive to be competitive. First it was the rediculous manifolds. Then valve springs that allow the engines to rev to a point where the life span is drastically reduced. And Carbon fiber bodywork is allowed.....that was an oversight for sure.

The list goes on and on. Now it's disc brakes. Next will be rack and pinions.

We all know some aspects of FV are not as appealing as FF or other more expensive classes.....but the low cost factor kept new people coming into the class. These days, it no longer has the low cost appeal it once had.

I considered coming back.....but unless the cost (primarily engines) can be better controlled, I can't justify it.

Challange cup is trying to address cost issues.....and seems to be growing. If the class is to remain the most popular Formula class in scca, the cost issues must be addressed.

Jerry Hodges

[B Farnham]

Can someone give me statistical data to show me that FV is dying?

Majors participation
2013 -199
2014 - 213
2015 - 243
2016 - 240
2017 - 238
2018 - 227

Pretty consistent if you ask me, obviously the dip in 2018 from the runoffs being on the west coast.

FV Challenge cup and NEFV are growing pretty significantly in the last 3 years. So where is it dying? Talk like that is ridiculous and completely unfounded, most of it is from people who dont complete in the class or have little involvement!

Just because the class is going against what you believe is right doesn't mean that its "dying". As I said before talk like that is what turns people away when they read that on here.

Honestly this forum can be depressing at times whether its talking about SCCA, open wheel or a specific class. If I came on here and read some of the things people post there would be no way I would get involved.

FV isn't going anywhere, it will forever be the cheapest formula car class with great comraradery and competition.

[jpetillo]

Brian F. - thanks for the statistics - and for posting some real data to back up what you say. Also ChrisZ & Brian H. - thanks for the helpful posts. The FSRAC mentioned to me last year that FV is the most stable class. It may go up and down by year, but it doesn't experience the swings the other classes see. That was good to hear.

I agree - FV is hardly dying, and I'm also concerned that people reading the forum will stay away from FV after reading threads like this one.

Up in our neck of the woods - running in the NER SCCA - we have been growing by about 13-15% per year steadily for several years now. We are now the biggest regional class. This is because the class is still quite viable - and the enthusiasm for the class and growth in all age groups in FV in the NER is quite high. This is hardly the situation the few negative comments in this thread are indicating about the class.

It's all about putting in the effort to grow the class - pure and simple. We in the NEFV (North East Formula Vee) do that - put in the effort. Challenge Cup also puts in the effort. It won't happen on its own. ChrisZ mentioned some of the ways we do this in the NEFV, and there are many more. Check out the web page, and FV guys please consider joining our Facebook page.

nefv.org
https://www.facebook.com/groups/nefv.org

If others want to try to do the same and try to grow SCCA FV in their neck of the woods, please get in touch with us. We'd be more than happy to help.

Brian F., I apologize if I stole your thread. I just wanted to help by adding in some facts.

John

[Matt Clark]

Just as an observation about FV dying....

I think those who say it is dying are saying so because of the decline in entries from years past. I know several here were part of the FV heyday of the 80s & 90s, when FV had huge field everywhere all the time. I will definitely agree that numbers are down from then. But, Brians numbers show we aren't doing all that bad in the big picture.

However, I think we also need to factor in things that SCCA in general is dealing with. Not only has SCCA participation itself shrunk (due to economy, change in generational interests, etc.), but we also have to look at how many more classes there are now. Most people compare now to the 70s when they had a LOT fewer classes, but we have dilluted the fields since the 90s as well. The people who might normally have been FV racers have gone to other various classes (for various reasons there, too).

There are several things we can do to the class to help keep it appealing, and not everything will please everyone. But it *is* needed, both to grab the interest of new racers & because of parts availability / prices. I think some of the things in the works now & in the next few years could prove to make a huge resurgence in FV.

[FVRacer21]

I have stayed out of this conversation because I am no longer involved in FV.

However......I was deeply involved some years ago....,.and......like Steve Lathrop...... i recommend the class to every young driver who is serious about learning how to drive a race car competitively.

But....FV is dying.......why? I think it's because it has become way to expensive to be competitive. First it was the rediculous manifolds. Then valve springs that allow the engines to rev to a point where the life span is drastically reduced. And Carbon fiber bodywork is allowed.....that was an oversight for sure.

The list goes on and on. Now it's disc brakes. Next will be rack and pinions.

We all know some aspects of FV are not as appealing as FF or other more expensive classes.....but the low cost factor kept new people coming into the class. These days, it no longer has the low cost appeal it once had.

I considered coming back.....but unless the cost (primarily engines) can be better controlled, I can't justify it.

Challange cup is trying to address cost issues.....and seems to be growing. If the class is to remain the most popular Formula class in scca, the cost issues must be addressed.

Jerry Hodges

Jerry,

All of your comments are correct for Majors, but not for Regionals. We hope to have 30+ cars running in the NE this year. Challenge cup has a similar number in their regional area. The Drivez Cup is trying to do the same in the SE. The vintage group in the MW sees similar numbers.

Now that we have a spec tire the playing field has just gotten more level.

Let me make a statement that I challenge anyone to disprove:

Racing a FV competitively is the most inexpensive class in the SCCA - Winning is expensive.

To win Majors in FV you need: (and I am sure some top Majors guy will disagree but...)
$5000+ engine
$1000+ Exhaust System
$1000+ Manifold
$3000 Shocks
$1500 Brakes
$1000 Data acquisition system
$1000 Radio system
Be willing to spend thousands on practice days
Be willing to take dozens of days off from work traveling
Spend insane amounts on entry fees

To run competitively in Regionals
the engine that came with the $5000 car with a $1500 rebuild
a $300 exhaust system
a $400 manifold down 1/2 hp from the $1000 one
$400 worth of shocks that probably came with the car,
$400 worth of new drums and stock shoes.
Pick and choose races were you can keep costs down.

Now you can always buy junk and parts do wear out. Racing is not free.

Unless you cannot keep oil in your engine, most engines will run 100's of miles before needing a refresh (not like when I started where most drivers would pop an engine every year....yeah they were cheaper, but what did a weekend cost you. The power range seems to still be maxed out at 6500.)

So are we ever going to be back to the heyday of Formula racing in the 60's and 70's - no

Do we sometimes blame FV for the problems of the SCCA and racing in general - yes.

With the resurgence of IndyCar I think we are in for a small bump and if we keep putting in the effort and keeping the positive attitude we can keep FV strong -

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

FV is very healthy in a few areas in North America where locals have worked hard to keep it healthy. A huge part of that is keeping it in single-class grouping, or close to it. Anywhere else, the few FVs are basically moving chicanes for much faster cars in large Formula Alphabet and SR groups and It is not fun, nor particularly safe. Denying that is not unlike claiming the earth is flat. Positive delusional thoughts do nothing to make FV racing better, nor make the earth flat.

Growing the class by cutting costs is the only viable plan. $3k+ brakes, even as an option, is just insane!

[LenFC11]

I'm not a FV guy and never will be so take this for what it's worth.

I'm an FF/ FC guy who can no longer justify the expense to race at the level I enjoy most.

As an outsider if where looking to changing class drum brakes would be huge no for me.. I don't mind working on the car.. tunning to get the most out of the car as possible.. I'm one of the guys still working on the car 10pm on Saturday night if necessary.. or later..

I only know from reading here the effort it takes to tune the drums needed to get max capability from them and can honestly say that alone would keep me from the class

I often agree with what Greg posts.. and in general I agree only changes to reduce cost should be made, especially for the more cost effective classes. But like the Honda in FF I see this as benefit for long term growth.

FV does has the corner on low cost and stable rules package which has given a few areas great fields.. I hope this doesn't effect the class negatively and growth continues

[Darren Brown]

Can someone give me statistical data to show me that FV is dying?

Majors participation
2013 -199
2014 - 213
2015 - 243
2016 - 240
2017 - 238
2018 - 227

Pretty consistent if you ask me, obviously the dip in 2018 from the runoffs being on the west coast.

FV Challenge cup and NEFV are growing pretty significantly in the last 3 years. So where is it dying? Talk like that is ridiculous and completely unfounded, most of it is from people who dont complete in the class or have little involvement!

Just because the class is going against what you believe is right doesn't mean that its "dying". As I said before talk like that is what turns people away when they read that on here.

Honestly this forum can be depressing at times whether its talking about SCCA, open wheel or a specific class. If I came on here and read some of the things people post there would be no way I would get involved.

FV isn't going anywhere, it will forever be the cheapest formula car class with great comraradery and competition.

Vee health is very much a geographic thing now days. Just because there is a draw at the runoffs does not mean the class is healthily.

You asked for statistics, this is the best I can come up with.

May national race in 2000 23 finishers and 25 entered.

May majors race in 2018 1 starter.

That is far from a healthy class. My first vee runoffs was 97, I think there was 50 plus cars with out the "bucket list draw" of tracks. Mike Clem has a picture of the Sprints from the mid 80s (or one of the birthday parties) with over 80 Vees (I think that is right, either way a huge number) taking the green flag.

This is no way related to just vee racing. The cost of racing is just to high. COTA race is 3 hours from my house, and I am skipping it because it just cost too much.

Do I have solutions, maybe but I am not king of the SCCA and probably don't understand the corporate world of running a race. Maybe making it so you have to qualify for the run offs again would bump entries at races through out the country?.


Just another data point.

Darren

[B Farnham]

Darren,

Anyone would be crazy to argue that the numbers weren't higher in the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 00's. Just about every class had more participants years ago. The question was "is FV dying?" not "did we have more participation 15 to 20 years ago".

For a class to be dying you would think that you would see a swift drop off in the last 6 years which isn't the case.

FV is growing in certain parts of the country and shrinking in others. My question is what are you personally doing to help the class where you live?

NEFV, Challenge cup and the Driverz cup are all working to increase car counts. On the west coast and south west things have shrunk considerably, but who is doing anything about it?

It gets old reading about the "good old days" from the guys that have been doing this 30-40 years. There were more cars years ago but guess what it's not that way anymore! Talking down on what we have now doesn't do any good, things are different now, we just have to make the most of what we have.

[Darren Brown]

B Farnham,

I am not talking down to anybody, but 1 car in class is dying in my book. Yes all of open wheel racing is suffering. I am not bringing up the "gold old days", just answering your question. Hell I am not old enough for the good old days reference, maybe I am.

As to what am I doing. I came back to racing a Vee after a 7 year hiatus from racing and 15 year break from vees. I race when I can afford to, which at the current cost is not much but does put another car on track. What more can I do?

Had I done more research before buying the Vortech I would have bought another FF. What I was greeted with was two major rule changes that I was unaware of in the works. I am not arguing the merit of either, just unfortunate timing for me.

You mentioned the young people have spoken on disk brakes because they have never seen drum brakes. Fair enough, but what young car nut is familiar with a flat 4 with push rods, pushrod tubes, oil cooled, and single down draft carb?

Darren

[B Farnham]

You mentioned the young people have spoken on disk brakes because they have never seen drum brakes. Fair enough, but what young car nut is familiar with a flat 4 with push rods, pushrod tubes, oil cooled, and single down draft carb?

Darren

The big difference is they dont have to know much about the engine to make it work. Set the valves before the weekend, check the oil level after each session and gas it up and you're good to go. 99% of people have someone else build their engine, that's not the case with the brakes.

We spend 3-4 times the amount of time setting the brakes and flipping the shoes every few sessions than we do on the rest of the car. Most people aren't getting the most out of their brakes because they dont know how to. The disc brakes equal things up, lowers maintenance and are more appealing to potential racers.