FV disc brakes

[B Farnham]

Some time ago I promised myself I would stay out of the latest controversies, but...

...here goes nuthin'...

If you really want disc brakes (and rack & pinion steering) so bad, why not just go Formula First ?

I know I just painted a target on my chest, but...oh well.

Glenn

I know that, some how, this will turn ugly & personal...as they always do.

FST is shrinking at this point, as FV adds these things it's an incentive for people to convert FSTs back to FV.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

FST is shrinking at this point, as FV adds these things it's an incentive for people to convert FSTs back to FV.

FV is shrinking also, probably at a higher percentage rate than FST, just look at the FV's for sale at ridiculously low prices. In California FV regional racing is gone. There are a handful of die hards that will run the majors next year because the runoffs are at Sonoma.

Additionally, probably half of the FST cars currently racing are not converted FV's and were purpose built to the FST rules thus they cannot be converted into FV's without major surgery. Besides once you have driven a FST it is really hard to go back to an FV. They are so much better in every way.

Back to the topic. IMO disc brakes should be approved with some basic parameters and just let he competitors figure out how to do it best.

[B Farnham]

FV is shrinking also, probably at a higher percentage rate than FST, just look at the FV's for sale at ridiculously low prices. In California FV regional racing is gone. There are a handful of die hards that will run the majors next year because the runoffs are at Sonoma.

Additionally, probably half of the FST cars currently racing are not converted FV's and were purpose built to the FST rules thus they cannot be converted into FV's without major surgery. Besides once you have driven a FST it is really hard to go back to an FV. They are so much better in every way.

Back to the topic. IMO disc brakes should be approved with some basic parameters and just let he competitors figure out how to do it best.

FV is growing at a pretty good rate on the east coast with the Northeast guys and the challenge cup. Also the Runoffs still fielded the typical 40 or so cars so things can't be that bad. For all the west coast is shrinking I think the east coast is compensating.

At Mid Ohio this year the FST series only had 5 or 6 cars and thats supposed to be the largest group of FST's in the country. At some point people may have to convert back to have cars to race against, I believe the same thing happened in Canada.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

FV is growing at a pretty good rate on the east coast with the Northeast guys and the challenge cup. Also the Runoffs still fielded the typical 40 or so cars so things can't be that bad. For all the west coast is shrinking I think the east coast is compensating.

At Mid Ohio this year the FST series only had 5 or 6 cars and thats supposed to be the largest group of FST's in the country. At some point people may have to convert back to have cars to race against, I believe the same thing happened in Canada.

I don't think FV is growing on the east coast, maybe maintaining might be a better description. Hats off to the them and the challenge series for what they have done.

There is no doubt that the FST series is declining also. My point earlier is cars like the Evolution FST, a purpose built car, cant be converted to FV rules without basically building an entirely new car. It would not be worth the effort and additionally would not be competitive against a national caliber FV.

[Matt Clark]

I don't think FV is growing on the east coast, maybe maintaining might be a better description. Hats off to the them and the challenge series for what they have done.

to be fair, the National level is shrinking, but Regional levels are increasing in both the FVCC & NEFV groups. We both are getting a few brand-new-to-FV folks coming in lately, and even some veteran racers coming back out. then again, it is somewhat easier to be growing after the slump the class was in everywhere for a bit.

[Hardingfv32]

Yes... all is well in the NE. Unfortunately that does not extended to anywhere else in the US for SCCA FV.

Enjoy it while you can because you never know when it will end. The SFR has Laguna and Sears plus its own club track to draw competitors. FV even had a spec tire program yet it is completely dead at this time. Things change...

Brian

[R. Pare]

Question for you guys:

I've been asked to look at making front drums along with the rears that I've been doing for 20 years now. However, there is no question that they will end up costing a bit more than the rears.

I've been thinking about the ever-escalating costs for everyone, and have started thinking about the possibility of making a 2-piece drum, where when the band wears out, you can replace it with one that costs a fraction of buying a complete drum. Haven't done any drawings as yet, but it may be an idea worth pursuing.

Obviously, it would have to be approved by the CRB.

Any thoughts?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Question for you guys:

I've been asked to look at making front drums along with the rears that I've been doing for 20 years now. However, there is no question that they will end up costing a bit more than the rears.

I've been thinking about the ever-escalating costs for everyone, and have started thinking about the possibility of making a 2-piece drum, where when the band wears out, you can replace it with one that costs a fraction of buying a complete drum. Haven't done any drawings as yet, but it may be an idea worth pursuing.

Obviously, it would have to be approved by the CRB.

Any thoughts?

I do like the concept of a two piece drum. If it is well made, and affordable, I doubt the comp board would have a problem with it. With that being said I would much rather spend the money on disc brakes.

So in your spare time could you spend some time developing an affordable disc brake package. It's pretty clear that many want it, however, no one can seem to agree on how to do it. Imagine that, racers that can't agree on something........

If I were king of FV I would approve disc brakes and let the competitors come up with there own systems. It's amazing how resourceful racers are!

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

to be fair, the National level is shrinking, but Regional levels are increasing in both the FVCC & NEFV groups. We both are getting a few brand-new-to-FV folks coming in lately, and even some veteran racers coming back out. then again, it is somewhat easier to be growing after the slump the class was in everywhere for a bit.

Matt, The east coast guys have done a great job with the FV series. It just wont work out here with SCCA because San Francisco region, "the region that knows better" has decided that the FC's need to be in the FV group which was the final nail in the coffin.

The major series, or vintage racing, are the only alternatives at this point for us.

[B Farnham]

Matt, The east coast guys have done a great job with the FV series. It just wont work out here with SCCA because San Francisco region, "the region that knows better" has decided that the FC's need to be in the FV group which was the final nail in the coffin.

The major series, or vintage racing, are the only alternatives at this point for us.

Scott,

FV had the same issues on the east coast but it really came down to organizing everyone to show up to the same races in a series and promoting the class. If you get to the point where you can get your own run group that's when things really start to grow.

Someone has to take that role though and start to organize things, FV isn't going to grow by itself anymore. Positive things are happening around the country, the southeast is talking about getting a challenge cup group together as well.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

Just to redirect this and maybe a new thread should be started.

Reviving FV (or any other class)

1. Identify all racers and potential racers in the area.
This will involve mailings, going to shows, digging through old race results etc.
2. Line up support resources - engine builders, race shops, parts suppliers , retired drivers etc.
3. Open up discussions with regional representatives - most regions want more entries.
4. Start small - pick a race or two and work on getting as many cars there as possible. Do not promise more that you can deliver.
5. Take the pulse - meetings, social media, paddock together at races.
6. Acknowledge that the SCCA might not be the only game in town. Other groups might be willing to host.

Maybe the most important thing - everyone helps each other. This is amateur racing - not pro. The word selfish does not appear in any FV rules that I have ever seen. If you want to get some, you got to give some.

The work of the NE FV guys has been going on for more that 6 years - after a while the tipping point occurs and it accelerates It is not magic, no inevitable. It takes work.

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

Question for you guys:

I've been asked to look at making front drums along with the rears that I've been doing for 20 years now. However, there is no question that they will end up costing a bit more than the rears.

I've been thinking about the ever-escalating costs for everyone, and have started thinking about the possibility of making a 2-piece drum, where when the band wears out, you can replace it with one that costs a fraction of buying a complete drum. Haven't done any drawings as yet, but it may be an idea worth pursuing.

Obviously, it would have to be approved by the CRB.

Any thoughts?

Richard,

I think holding back right now is prudent. My gut tells me that the disc brakes will be approved, driven by forces beyond our control....or understanding. I think there are many good front drums still in hiding, waiting to come out and if people switch over to discs this will even the supply issue.

BTW - Yes I am for disc option on FRONT only, but until I see a bolt on kit with no track changes and using existing wheels, AND race tested, I am a bit skeptical.

ChrisZ

[BLS]

From Feb2018:

"FV
1. #23697 (Name) Opposes Disc Brake in FV Reference Letter #22456
Thank you for your letter. Please see the response to Letter #22456, October 2017 Fastrack Minutes, which the Board of Directors approved as recommended in November 2017."

My underline -
Is BOD approval the final approval? If so, what date is it legal? Or is there another level it must go through?


"9.1.1.4.D. Front and/or rear brake drums and backing plate assemblies may be replaced with a disc brake conversion assembly as an option. The front spindle/steering knuckle, rear axle, axle tube, bearing housing and bearing retainer/seal assembly must remain per GCR part 9.1.1. A spacer plate or a portion of the rear caliper support may be fitted beneath the bearing retainer to replace the backing plate dimension. Any ferrous alloy, unvented rotor may be used, but must have a maximum diameter of 11.75 in. and a minimum thickness of 0.20 in. The otherwise smooth rotor may have a maximum of three pad cleaning grooves per side. Any ferrous or aluminum alloy caliper and caliper support may be used. The caliper must have no more than four pistons and weigh a minimum of 1.65 lbs. Brake pads are free. Any hub assembly may be used as long as it can be fitted with part 9.1.1. wheels."

[Lynn]

The BoD is the final approval. I don't know when it will go into effect, but usually it would be January 1st.

[BLS]

The BoD is the final approval. I don't know when it will go into effect, but usually it would be January 1st.

Thanks Lynn, I thought so, but seems like no one was aware of it. Or at least no one has mentioned it.

[Steve Davis]

OK.. FWIW, I have just submitted the following message to the CRB via the CRBSCCA.com website (Tracking Number: #23775). I never saw anything either and I LOOKED!
----------------------------
In the Feb 2018 prelim minutes I see this ...
-------------
FV
1. #23697 (Mike Schiffer) Opposes Disc Brake in FV Reference Letter #22456
Thank you for your letter. Please see the response to Letter #22456, October 2017 Fastrack Minutes, which the Board of Directors approved as recommended in November 2017.
-------------

In searches through the issued Fastracks, I cannot find ANY evidence that the BOD has approved disc brakes as recommended by the CRB back in Oct '17. The reference above says it was approved in Nov '17 .. but I don't see it in the Nov, or Dec or Jan or the prelim Feb Fastracks. All references I can find simply refer the reader back to the RECOMMENDATION (*NOT APPROVAL BY THE BOD) back in the October issue.

This seems like a rather significant CHANGE in the rules for FV. Was the membership notified of this? If so, please tell me HOW we were notified. And please confirm for me exactly WHEN this new rule becomes effective.

[BLS]

Maybe the response to the letter was just inadvertently worded. I couldn't find anything saying it had been approved either.

[FVRacer21]

Has anyone spoke to their director?

I just emailed 2 and also reviewed the 2018 updated GCR - no sign.

Chris Z

[FVRacer21]

I just heard back from one of my Area Directors (Thanks Bob) and he says the proposal was NOT presented to the board.

So it is still in the hands of the Comp Board at this time.

From what I hear, I think it is safe to say the FV Committee is........well frustrated might be too strong, but as seen above, the communication is confusing to say the least.

Politics and procedures are always tough so I believe the committee is doing their best to navigate the waters.

I would not be surprised to find that the letters written to the SCCA and Comp Board, pro and con, are probably the most they have received on a single topic. Keep up the good work.

ChrisZ

[BLS]

Thanks for the update Chris.

[Steve Davis]

Racing in the same run group as FV, I'm convinced FV drivers never use their brakes.

Dan,
Vee drivers DO use their brakes .. it's just that cars that really do HAVE brakes, can't tell it ... and if you use your brakes in FRONT of one of us, expect to get HIT .

On this (disc brakes for FV) subject, I sent a query to SCCA (via crbscca.com) about the recent entry in the February Preliminary Fastrack that Disc Brakes for FV were approved in November... I got this back from Rick Harris - SCCA tech manager.
(emphasis mine)

The letter system shows that letter #22456 went out in the October Fastrack as a RECOMMEND item. The letter system also shows it was approved at the November BoD meeting. It looks like the letter was mistakenly assigned as approved in the letter system, and never sent back to the committee for revision.

The committee is currently working on an official clarification but as it stands disc brakes are not approved at this time for FV.

[fv22]

For as long as the disc brake debate has been going on I have heard one of the main reasons to do this is to eliminate the use of very expensive brake shoes. Now I read the proposed rules and what stands out to me is:

Any ferrous or aluminum alloy caliper and caliper support may be used. The caliper must have no more than four pistons and weigh a minimum of 1.65 lbs.Brake pads are free. Any hub assembly may be used as long as it can be fitted with part 9.1.1. wheels."

Does anyone really believe that lightweight aluminum alloy 4 piston calipers are going to be "inexpensive"? How about the custom made caliper support and hub? How long before the latest, greatest, must have pads cost as much as the current most expensive shoes? So in addition to the initial (possibly, probably HIGH) cost of conversion we'll most likely then still have high, possibly higher than now maintenance costs.

Then there's the line of no added performance, yeah right... Of course I cannot can say that for sure but since when does a bunch of racers dedicate years trying to get rules changed to spend more money on their cars without gaining a performance advantage?

So basically the 2 big "reasons" for a disc conversion do not sound true to me. Can anyone convince me I'm wrong? I've already read everything on the forum about it so more convincing proof is needed.

Oh wait, I almost forgot about another reason we NEED a disc conversion. All those young upcoming hot shoes that would suddenly flock to Formula Vee and fill our fields again as soon as we modernize our cars with disc brakes. Am I the only one hearing crickets...

About the only other reason I hear is to save time on brake maintenance. Yes I agree we will save time not having to check and adjust brakes during a race weekend. If saving that few minutes means so much to some I guess I just don't value my time as highly as others.

Do I think it would be cool to have disc brakes? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it's worth making an expensive conversion to a class that has got along (and stopped) just fine for over 50 years without disc brakes? Not even close to convinced yet. Are there other crucial reasons we need the conversion that I am overlooking? If so please inform me.

Rant over!

[B Farnham]

FF brake pads are in the neighborhood of $80, don't you think they would be using expensive pads if it was an advantage? With Drums you have to run carbotechs for a number of reasons to be competitive, that won't be the case with discs.

Sure someone can put 4 piston calipers on a disc but is there any advantage? We're talking about stopping 1025lb cars not 4000lb cars. At the end of the day the limiting factor is the tires not the brake system, we can lock up the wheels now with drums, braking force isn't a problem.

If someone wants to blow their money on 4 piston calipers then let them. All it'll do is add weight and complexity.

This isn't to get young 16 year olds into the class, it's for the future of the class. Most of the people for discs are under the age of 40 and most against them are over 40, that should say something....

[fv22]

Thanks for the response! We need more discussion on why to convert, seems I mostly just see that we must convert and convert now. Not much showing good valid reasons to do it. I'm looking for and hoping to hear reasons to change my mind, just have not heard that yet.

FF brake pads are in the neighborhood of $80, don't you think they would be using expensive pads if it was an advantage?

I do not know FF rules. Are brake pads free? If so I guess the $80 pads work great today. What happens tomorrow when someone comes up with the new must have pads at 2 or 3 times that price? Do not like the rules leaving something open ended that can cause creep over time.

Sure someone can put 4 piston calipers on a disc but is there any advantage? We're talking about stopping 1025lb cars not 4000lb cars. At the end of the day the limiting factor is the tires not the brake system, we can lock up the wheels now with drums, braking force isn't a problem.

This is a great argument for NOTconverting. Apparently our current brakes are as good as it gets...

If someone wants to blow their money on 4 piston calipers then let them. All it'll do is add weight and complexity.

Until someone does it, wins a race and it becomes the next must have mod!

This isn't to get young 16 year olds into the class, it's for the future of the class. Most of the people for discs are under the age of 40 and most against them are over 40, that should say something....

I'm sure it says something. I'm just not sure what.

[Hardingfv32]

1) Without question current 2 piston calipers and available pad materials are more braking performance than an FV can use. You have to be a smart consumer and understand the system you are purchasing... if not rely on someone who does.

You do not see constant brake development in faster classes like FF/FC.

2) Yes... the current Carbotech brakes provide all the braking power that the FV tires can provide... BUT they are every expensive.. difficult to use and require high maintenance.

This is the heart of the drive to allow disc brakes. IF you have no appreciation of these issues then you will NOT appreciate the desire for a disc brake option.

3) What is being said in the last statement relative to street car usage: ANY driver younger than 40 has never driven with an all drum brake system. A driver of ANY age has probably not driven an all drum system in 50 years.

REMEMBER you do not have to convert. Again be a smart consumer OR rely on someone you know who is.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Sure someone can put 4 piston calipers on a disc but is there any advantage? We're talking about stopping 1025lb cars not 4000lb cars. At the end of the day the limiting factor is the tires not the brake system, we can lock up the wheels now with drums, braking force isn't a problem..

This is a great argument for NOT converting. Apparently our current brakes are as good as it gets....

I would say this shows that leaving it as an OPTIONAL conversion is perfectly fine then.

it's been repeatedly discussed & explained that a 4-pot caliper is not needed & a complete waste for a smaller formula car, so I see this as a non-issue. although I would like to see the rule restrict this more, simply so no one can use this argument anymore.

This isn't to get young 16 year olds into the class, it's for the future of the class. Most of the people for discs are under the age of 40 and most against them are over 40, that should say something....

I'm sure it says something. I'm just not sure what.

with at least 3 new teens getting into FVCC next year BECAUSE of our more progressive style, I would say things like this are a factor in the traditional FVs lack of growth the past years.

So basically the 2 big "reasons" for a disc conversion do not sound true to me. Can anyone convince me I'm wrong? I've already read everything on the forum about it so more convincing proof is needed.

being on here long enough, I have found there is no convincing those who do not want to be convinced.

[B Farnham]

I'll come out and say it, Carbotech basically has a monopoly and the cost for brake shoes have gotten to levels of insanity. If you're not running them you're losing performance.

With Discs there is a lot of competition with brake pads to keep the price low.

Disc brakes equal out the playing field. If you're not running carbotechs, turning your drums to match and adjusting your brakes after each session you're brakes are not as good as the top guys. With Discs you don't have to worry about doing all that bs.

[Stumpthumper]

I hate to keep bringing this thread to the top, but can someone explain the process and some of the documents involved in all of this. Right now I see the following:

2018 February FastTrack: "Recommended for 2019 .... disc brakes"

2/13/18 CRB: Preliminary Minutes: "....Board of Directors approved as recommended in January 2018 (to be effective January 1, 2019)."

1/30/18 CRB: Recomended Rule Changes: "At the recommendation of the FV ad hoc committee, the CRB recommends the option ofdisc brakes in FV and that it be effective March 1, 2018"

In the preliminary minutes, when they say "BOD" do they really mean the CRB? I'm presuming from the record here that the CRB was going to approve this as of March 1, 2018 and at their meeting approved it for January 1, 2019...and by approval I mean they will recommend it to the BOD who will them decide. Is this correct?

I'm just trying to read through all the beurocracy to understand what's going on.

[FVRacer21]

It has been quiet - I saw that and wondered when it would wake up this thread.

The first posting was wrong - I spoke to my Director and he had not heard of it.

It appears that it has been resubmitted to the BOD. I have not looked at the wording to see if any changes have been made. Usually when the Comp Board makes a recommendation, they feel pretty safe that it will pass.

So I am thinking that it will go through unless there is an avalanche of letters tot the Directors.

Here we go again.....

ChrisZ

[Steve Davis]

Mike,
See my post above #221. I received that response AFTER the January minutes was posted .. and it clarified that NOTHING was in play for FV Disc brakes at this time. The notations about "approval to be effective January 1, 2019" is just a copy of what the CRB has been sending out for the last couple of months referencing the OCTOBER "approval" .. which was apparently FALSE. Preliminary minutes are just that .. PRELIMINARY. Probably in the pipeline since last November. It WOULD be nice if SOMEONE out in Topeka would read over these things and CORRECT such errors, but .. alas...

AND, of course, that's ASSUMING the error is as explained by SCCA in post 221 and not some other way.

[Hardingfv32]

The posted communication on this subject has been anything but clear.

Brian

[Stumpthumper]

The posted communication on this subject has been anything but clear.

Brian

Good to hear. I'm new and this has been very confusing to officially follow.

[BLS]

Yep, pretty confusing. SCCA communication seems to be lacking. I read the latest as approved beginning Jan 1, 2019.

I have no clue if this is correct.

[Steve Davis]

Hey .. it's SCCA... a VOLUNTEER (mostly) organization... what more can you expect other than 'confusing' ?? THAT'S exactly why I sent in my query to the CRB. Of course, I'm still not that confident that the answer I received is CORRECT.

[Stumpthumper]

what would make it official? Only once it's in the GCR? Or is there another preliminary document that means it's "approved" so people can plan ahead? I'm not necessarily asking on this subject, but all subjects.

[Bill Johnson 42]

Disc brakes were voted on and approved by the BoD at the national convention, effective date is 1/1/2019.

[Steve Davis]

OK.. this is the response from the HEAD of the FSRC Committee. I guess that makes it at least 'semi' official. So... Bill, WHY do the preliminary minutes continue to refer to the notice from last October? Shouldn't it not reflect the CURRENT situation ... that it was APPROVED only a couple of weeks ago? Hopefully, it will be more obvious once the OFFICIAL Fastrack is released in another week or so...? It should NOT have to be THIS HARD for the drivers to figure out what is happening.... AND was it APPROVED "AS PROPOSED" .. or modified in some unknown manner yet to be disclosed?

[Bill Johnson 42]

Have to admit, this has been a cluster. My apologies to all for the confusion and agree that drivers shouldn't have to "figure it out".

I won't try and explain where this went south, at this point really doesn't matter. I will look into the official wording in Fastrack, what's out now is only the prelims.

What does matter, the disc brake proposal was approved as submitted and will be effective 1/1/2019.

[Hardingfv32]

The response to letters in the March prelim on the subject does state that the change was approved.

Can we expect the monthly updated GCR to reflect what is going to be a 2019 rule change?

Does anyone know of disc brake kits that meet the approve rule? The track width restriction seems to be a major challenge as I research the possibilities.

Brian

[BLS]

"The track width restriction seems to be a major challenge as I research the possibilities."

Yep. Seems many choices if track width is not a consideration, but few, if any, good ones to keep the standard required track width.

I'm assuming a viable choice will present itself prior to 2019.