FV disc brakes

[S Lathrop]

I think that the saddest situation with FV is the cost of building a car. I purchased my first FV in 1968. In constant dollars (a term only economists use) FV has gone from about 30% of medium income in the mid 1970's to 50% or more today. And I think we had more disposable income with a middle income salary in the 1970's.

As a builder, I don't think I could do a run of say 10 cars and get them out for less than $30,000. Unlike years ago when I could get all the VW parts to build a car from a VW dealer or junk yard, now I would have to scrounge and spend a lot of time and money getting the necessary VW parts. Where would I go to get 10 transmissions that were race ready for a run of cars? Could I get a competitive engine and transmission for less than $10,000? Much of what is available today is not up the standards of the original parts and not suitable for racing applications.

I think the disk brake option is just a fix until the next parts issue comes up.

I find this situation depressing. But I still feel that for an entry level race car, FV is the best place to start. FV is the best class to teach some driving skills that will work very well for any faster car a driver races and if they get to Indy, those skills will be invaluable.

[Hardingfv32]

The current brake rules are just fine and were well thought out. They provide disc brakes without requiring any additional expensive for drum users requiring equal car performance. It is just expensive to meet this goal. Expense was not the highest priority.

ANY other brake solution is not going to accomplish this or it would have been presented by now. The 4 lug systems are going to require a majority of FV competitor to agree to some compromises and additional costs to keep on competitively equal footing. Rule changes that change the class car dimensions by definition mean additional expenses for all competitors.

Brian

[Garry Sharp]

Unfortunately, too many people in the road racing world find larger, one-time expenses unaffordable, but somehow justify to themselves spending many multiples of that dollar a few dimes at a time. Out of one side of their mouth they claim it will take 5 years to break-even, but out of the other admit they've been at the hobby 15+ and plan at least another 15.

Why is this "unfortunate"? I'd be willing to bet this is the way the majority of FV ( and many other classes) drivers afford to race at all.

Garry

[Hardingfv32]

I think the disk brake option is just a fix until the next parts issue comes up.

I find this situation depressing...

Yes, getting old as a human or a race car class can be depressing and complicated. Get over it and adapt. Changes can be made and implementation can be rewarding.

There would be no drama if the class had kept up to date from day one. For example the class considered the ball joint/disc front end as far back as 40 years ago. Sadly the rejection of this idea was the just the first of many bad choices the class made over its history.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Why is this "unfortunate"? I'd be willing to bet this is the way the majority of FV ( and many other classes) drivers afford to race at all.

Garry

Because long term affordability is a large factor in keeping people involved for the long-haul. I do agree, it's likely the way the majority do it, which is why I said "too many".

[FVRacer21]

I was hoping someone would get the Monty Python reference........

We need to step out of our frame of reference. I just paid $13 for 3 rolls of shipping tape that a few years ago was $8. The average car will be over $32K this year. I don’t want to tell you what I am paying for a fuel cell (the last one lasted 25 years - I will not last that long however....).

$1K exhausts, $3K for a set of shocks, Fire systems, etc. this is where the costs are.

Steve can fill us in what a FF is these days - yes the new honda is working out, but the other costs cannot be cheap - you can probably buy a used FV for the cost of a FF tranny.

Mike V and Brad S probably had $30K in their cars, but you can still race for a lot less in FV.

My prediction is that some day soon, Honda or Tesla will build a cheap electric formula car, lease or sell with financing and in those numbers the game will change.

Until then....

ChrisZ

[S Lathrop]

Steve can fill us in what a FF is these days - yes the new honda is working out, but the other costs cannot be cheap - you can probably buy a used FV for the cost of a FF tranny. ChrisZ[/QUOTE]

I have heard that $70,000 can get you a new FF. I think the price might be well north of $80,000.

[Garry Sharp]

Scenario 1:

Disc brakes become legal in FV
There is no track increase allowed
A few people spend thousands of dollars to have disc brakes
People who don't have disc brakes spend what they have been spending.

Scenario 2:

Disc brakes become legal in FV
There is a slight increase in track width allowed
The 4 bolt option is allowed and lots of people spend $500 to have disc brakes
People who don't have disc brakes spend what they have been spending or $40 for wheel spacers if they want to.

[Hardingfv32]

The 4 bolt option is allowed and lots of people spend $500 to have disc brakes.

It is my understanding that there is not a 4 bolt rear wheel option available, has this changed? Frankly you are assigning a price to something that has not been developed yet for class consumption. I see a lot of post production modification required to make these parts work in FV. How about a 4 corner package that doesn't require any machining before we change any rules. I doubt very much that $500 is going to be enough to get the job done in a 'safe' manner.

Brian

[Garry Sharp]

It is my understanding that there is not a 4 bolt rear wheel option available, has this changed? Frankly you are assigning a price to something that has not been developed yet for class consumption. I see a lot of post production modification required to make these parts work in FV. How about a 4 corner package that doesn't require any machining before we change any rules. I doubt very much that $500 is going to be enough to get the job done in a 'safe' manner.

Brian

These kits are $239.00 each + tax and shipping so make it $600 just for kicks. They both bolt on. I have installed them both. They don't need any "machining". I just threw those scenarios out there for discussion's sake. I am a member of #1. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want more people to be able to have discs if they want them.

[FVRacer21]

These kits are $239.00 each + tax and shipping so make it $600 just for kicks. They both bolt on. I have installed them both. They don't need any "machining". I just threw those scenarios out there for discussion's sake. I am a member of #1. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want more people to be able to have discs if they want them.

Gary,

I like your logic, but add for at least 2 sets of new wheels (4 bolt) (probably 3). Yes you could make some of that back by selling the old wheels, but it is not just the price of the kits.

The problem I have with spacer is that it changes the offset and might cause other problems. That is why the original disc brake proposal held back a weight penalty if there was a performance advantage. From what we have seen so far, this does not seem to be an issue. Down the road we might have to revisit this if the 4 bolt ends up with a substantial track change.

Chris

[Matt Clark]

It is my understanding that there is not a 4 bolt rear wheel option available, has this changed?

aftermarket Porsche 914 hubs from ISP West & Sebro (Porsche OEM) or Centric rotor hats.

[B Farnham]

I think that the saddest situation with FV is the cost of building a car. I purchased my first FV in 1968. In constant dollars (a term only economists use) FV has gone from about 30% of medium income in the mid 1970's to 50% or more today. And I think we had more disposable income with a middle income salary in the 1970's.

As a builder, I don't think I could do a run of say 10 cars and get them out for less than $30,000. Unlike years ago when I could get all the VW parts to build a car from a VW dealer or junk yard, now I would have to scrounge and spend a lot of time and money getting the necessary VW parts. Where would I go to get 10 transmissions that were race ready for a run of cars? Could I get a competitive engine and transmission for less than $10,000? Much of what is available today is not up the standards of the original parts and not suitable for racing applications.

I think the disk brake option is just a fix until the next parts issue comes up.

I find this situation depressing. But I still feel that for an entry level race car, FV is the best place to start. FV is the best class to teach some driving skills that will work very well for any faster car a driver races and if they get to Indy, those skills will be invaluable.

The truth of the matter is most cars from the 90's are still competitive today so there isnt a huge need to build new cars. Unlike the vast majority of SCCA classes a car that's 30 years old can still be competitive.

And trust me you can build a new car for much less than 30K (I just built a new car this past year).

A top engine and transmission are around 6K, just wanted to clear that up. Parts are still readily available, you just have to use the resources the class has.

Right now the disc brake deal is what it is, I don't think making the track wider than what's in the GCR now would be good. However I dont understand why 4 bolt wheels are not allowed other than the fact that they haven't been in the past. I see no advantage to the 4 bolt wheels so why not allow them?

Brian

[Garry Sharp]

Right now the disc brake deal is what it is, I don't think making the track wider than what's in the GCR now would be good. However I dont understand why 4 bolt wheels are not allowed other than the fact that they haven't been in the past. I see no advantage to the 4 bolt wheels so why not allow them?

Brian

I don't think there is a need for 4 bolt wheels if there is no track increase.

[B Farnham]

I don't think there is a need for 4 bolt wheels if there is no track increase.

The 4 bolt brake kits can be adapted to work pretty easily and are much cheaper. There isn't a need but it would open up a lot of options.

If guys are willing to go out and find 4 bolt wheels why not let them? Andy Pastore had great success with his 4 bolt system last year.

[Hardingfv32]

Take it from the expert... opening up options means the chance to create advantages.

There seems to be 'no track increase' products available at reasonable prices. I saw Empi products for about $1000, four corner. I see no need for 4 lug wheels.

Frankly, those who wanted to reduce the maintenance of a top of the line drum system have already made the change to the expensive discs. There is no maintenance hassles for those who do require the best drum package. There is some work involved switching to discs, are these competitors really going to put in the time to make the change.

Make no mistake, the disc option is about pleasing existing FV competitors, not attracting new young entrants.

Brian

[Amon]

Take it from the expert... opening up options means the chance to create advantages.

There seems to be 'no track increase' products available at reasonable prices. I saw Empi products for about $1000, four corner. I see no need for 4 lug wheels.

Frankly, those who wanted reduce the maintenance of a top of the line drum system have already made the change to the expensive discs. There is no maintenance hassles for those who do require the best drum package. There is some work involved switching to discs, are these competitors really going to put in the time to make the change.

Make no mistake, the disc option is about pleasing existing FV competitors, not attracting new young entrants.

Brian

Take it from an actual driver, the above post is so inaccurate in so many ways!

[problemchild]

When SCCA decided that their tech inspectors were not smart enough to allow for toe when they measured max width, and changed the max width measurement process, it effectively allowed any FF or FC car running radial tires to increase their track by a half inch or so. Many many teams and racers have subsequently made new wider suspension components. Changing the track rules in FV will absolutely invite tuning with track changes, and increase costs.

[BUDDYCT]

Could you use 4 lug drum with wide 5 wheel adapter?

[Garry Sharp]

Could you use 4 lug drum with wide 5 wheel adapter?

That increases the track by about 1/2", I tried it.

[BUDDYCT]

Has anyone looked into Jamar Performance Front Disc Brake Kit With 2 Piston Calipers And 10" Rotors?

[Matt Clark]

Has anyone looked into Jamar Performance Front Disc Brake Kit With 2 Piston Calipers And 10" Rotors?

Yes, they were one of the very first people we dealt with.

[HB280ZT]

Matt,

What was the issue with the Jamar Performance Front Disc Brake Kits? They look really good, the price is a bit much but for billet parts you pay what you pay.

Harry
FV#77 CFR

[Steve Davis]

Harry,
I'm not certain, but a look at the DB400VWLP kit on the Jamar website looks like it would cause a significant increase in TRACK WIDTH .. at least on the front. (I didn't look at the rear kits) They also have a 'disclaimer' that would worry me a bit ... " It is designed to slow your car down and not stop the front wheels abruptly. " Not sure what that means....

Being made for a dune buggy, I also suspect it to be HEAVY DUTY and thusly, probably just plain HEAVY? Not much in the way (weigh?) of specs on the site.

Maybe Matt will have some REAL info...
Steve

[HB280ZT]

Steve,

That is what i was worried about, not much information on the site to make an educated guess from. It would really suck buying there kits only to find out that they do not comply with the rules.

R/-
Harry
FV#77 CFR

[Ed Womer]

For reference I bought my first FV in or around 1980, so do the math and you will know I have been involved with this class for awhile. That being said if you read Greg's post about FV should have evolved as the years have gone by we wouldn't be wasting time talking about these things. I personally was tired of constantly screwing with the brakes and finally did an adjustment in pre race prep and just lived with the extended pedal travel as weekend went on.

The bigger problem has always been the hard core racer who can out spend his competitors to hopefully get an advantage whether real or preceved. That group which would include those who make the expensive parts like intakes, engines etc, never wanted anything to change but would embrace changes they wanted regardless of the cost involved. Yes racing is expensive and has always been but to strongly refuse evolution just to keep the status quo is kinda foolish.

So allow less expensive evolution even if it involves a slight increase of track I don't think is an issue. If you think that you will be faster with a slight track increase you will fall into that preceved group of thinking. We are talking about suspension that was designed 70 years or more ago and unless you change the complete design you aren't going to obtain any real improvement by allowing inexpensive brakes with a slight track increase.

Unfortunately some of the cost of racing that has skyrocketed like entry fee's is something that the racer really has no control over but narrowly defining every aspect of the car without regard of the cost is kind of foolish thinking. Hopefully reasonable minds might eventually come around and simplify some things which will lower the cost and make it easier to maintain the car.

Ed

[Matt Clark]

Matt,

What was the issue with the Jamar Performance Front Disc Brake Kits? They look really good, the price is a bit much but for billet parts you pay what you pay.

Harry
FV#77 CFR

Harry,
I'm not certain, but a look at the DB400VWLP kit on the Jamar website looks like it would cause a significant increase in TRACK WIDTH .. at least on the front. (I didn't look at the rear kits) They also have a 'disclaimer' that would worry me a bit ... " It is designed to slow your car down and not stop the front wheels abruptly. " Not sure what that means....

Being made for a dune buggy, I also suspect it to be HEAVY DUTY and thusly, probably just plain HEAVY? Not much in the way (weigh?) of specs on the site.

Maybe Matt will have some REAL info...
Steve

Yes, the parts were very nicely made, but as Stevan points out, there was a track width increase with their off-the-shelf kit at the time... and they were working on changing that with us. Part of the reason was due to their modular construction. I can't really speak to their disclaimer, but Ray had zero issues locking the car up at full speed in a FV application... that may have been a disclaimer for faster & heavier buggies that people build out west.
It has been a couple years at this point, and I am a bit fuzzy off the top of my head now, but that was the exact kit that Ray ran at Watkins Glen originally. It still had the scalloped & slotted rotors at that point. It was a good starting point. Also, I think I remember the assembly was actually lighter than a drum setup, since it was all billet aluminum.
And I don't want to get into dirt on things, but there were other parts paid for that never came. They started plain not answering the emails or returning phone calls, so we moved on to work with another supplier.

[Hardingfv32]

so we moved on to work with another supplier.

Moved on to what? Why is nothing available? Generally speaking are you restricted to billet designs because of weight?

The Jamar units are essentially very similar to the modular design of the Varacins units, but Jamar does rely on a wider track. Jamar was bought out buy a much larger firm. They are only interested in the current product line with its established sales volume. Very unlikely there is any staff to do development, only a very small production staff.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

Moved on to what? Why is nothing available? Generally speaking are you restricted to billet designs because of weight?

The Jamar units are essentially very similar to the modular design of the Varacins units, but Jamar does rely on a wider track. Jamar was bought out buy a much larger firm. They are only interested in the current product line with its established sales volume. Very unlikely there is any staff to do development, only a very small production staff.

Brian

Brian

Moved on to work with another supplier.
And as I already stated above, life has got in the way for both sides, so things have paused. I would say who... but we don't want anyone contacting them & bugging these people for info as well, like they did to Jamar. One of the other reasons nothing is available is because we were attempting to make a kit that would do both wide-5 and 4 bolt wheels with the new folks.

However, I would not say we are restricted to billet designs for weight, as Garry has found with his modded EMPI kit. That just seems to be what everyone is making.

[grapefarmeral]

Increasing the front track width by 1/2" would be an increase of .95%. If memory serves me right increasing the track width allows less weight transfer. Not sure how much weight transfer we have across the front, but less than one percent doesn't seem like it would be much of a performance advantage....

[Daryl DeArman]

Increased track width also hurts straight line speed.

Maybe the pointy end of the grid ends up with a narrow track set up for some tracks and wide-track for others.

[Hardingfv32]

....doesn't seem like it would be much of a performance advantage....

That statement probably applies to 90% of FV competitors, but to those who are very competitive it could be significant. Could it have made a difference to the top three at last years Runoffs?

From my calculations a .5" track increase is a .9 pound front weight transfer reduction. 10" high roll center and 1.5g load. Total front load transfer is 107 lb. with a 385 lb. static front weight.

.5" front track increase is less than a 1/8 hp of drag.

Brian

[problemchild]

Increasing the front track width by 1/2" would be an increase of .95%. If memory serves me right increasing the track width allows less weight transfer. Not sure how much weight transfer we have across the front, but less than one percent doesn't seem like it would be much of a performance advantage....

Al,
I hope you are joking.
What racer would not want .95% more power, or .95% less aero drag, or .95% less rolling resistance.
Racers spent lots finding less than .95%.
Who would not want .95% more talent, budget, or ?

I might buy this argument for a mm or two, but 1/2 is a bunch.
With FV, I always maximize front track and minimize rear track.

[Daryl DeArman]

.5" front track increase is less than a 1/8 hp of drag.

Interested in the math on that one. . .

[Hardingfv32]

I assume 1/2' total front track increase, NOT per side. For the aero calculation you are talking about more exposure of the upright/dog bone only. That is about 8" x .5" for an increase of about 4 sq/in. of frontal area.

If it is 1/2" per side then everything doubles.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

I assume 1/2' total front track increase, NOT per side. For the aero calculation you are talking about more exposure of the upright/dog bone only. That is about 8" x .5" for an increase of about 4 sq/in. of frontal area.

If it is 1/2" per side then everything doubles.

Brian

You are assuming a proportional increase in total aero drag, ignoring any change in Cd. Un-shrouding ugly shaped parts at the front of the car may have a larger impact than you're estimating.

In any case, no matter what the actual number at x mph is, you will have a slower terminal velocity with a wider track. You will punch a larger hole in the air for a closely trailing car and you could increase cornering grip. Widening the track with the given front suspension geometry means you've also increased the scrub radius. I'm not certain there's much of a net difference. I do know that I would run the wider track on short, technical tracks and the narrower track on rovals and other tracks where I spending 1/2 of the straightaway reading a novel.

[grapefarmeral]

Greg,

Actually I was kidding, but after looking at the responses I've changed my mind. There will always be those that will spend thousands of dollars on .95 HP or .95% reduction in drag and that's fine. Just allow the extra 1/2" for those that dont want to spend $3500 on discs and will be happy with $1000 off the shelf. Maybe they possess .95% more talent and things will be equal. Don't make it mandatory, just optional and those that want to run a 1/2" narrower track on certain tracks and wider track on others, god bless them.

[Hardingfv32]

You are assuming a proportional increase in total aero drag...

Actually I have seperate Cd's for the wheels and chassis. There is an envelope of turbulent air on the sides of the wheels, a compromised Cd region that I do not have numbers for. I am not sure the increased track gets outside the turbulent flow zone. For this I went with the chassis Cd as I feel that you are real only exposing more of the beams which are round.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Don't make it mandatory.....

How about you make it Regional using regional supps. Much easier politically.

Remember that the disc brake change was to reduce maintenance for current competitors. They are not going to support a change that creates an option to manipulate track width and thus create more maintenance.

Brian

[grapefarmeral]

Brian,

The added maintenance would be optional..If there are those that want to go back and forth between widths, it's their choice