FV disc brakes

[BLS]

"FV 1. #22456 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Disc Brakes in FV - Member Survey At the recommendation of the FV ad hoc committee, the CRB recommends the option of disc brakes in FV. Add the following:
9.1.1.4.D. Front and/or rear brake drums and backing plate assemblies may be replaced with a disc brake conversion assembly as an option. The front spindle/steering knuckle, rear axle, axle tube, bearing housing and bearing retainer/seal assembly must remain per GCR part 9.1.1. A spacer plate or a portion of the rear caliper support may be fitted beneath the bearing retainer to replace the backing plate dimension. Any ferrous alloy, unvented rotor may be used, but must have a maximum diameter of 11.75 in. and a minimum thickness of 0.20 in. The otherwise smooth rotor may have a maximum of three pad cleaning grooves per side. Any ferrous or aluminum alloy caliper and caliper support may be used. The caliper must have no more than four pistons and weigh a minimum of 1.65 lbs. Brake pads are free. Any hub assembly may be used as long as it can be fitted with part 9.1.1. wheels. "

https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net...pdf?1505170766

[Matt Clark]

it's really hard to test things without being allowed to run them in real-world situations. single test days are not enough.
that being said, I don't know what I think of that particular wording.

[S Lathrop]

I spent some time working on a disk brake package for FV. My goal was to come up with something that fit within the space currently occupied by the drum brake setup and would preform as required. The big issue was the space available to mount the caliper and not have two thirds of the caliper hanging out of the inside of the wheel and having the rotor and caliper located well inboard of the mounting flange on the spindle.

The end result was the drawing below. The caliper is unique to this application, is a single floating piston caliper, and it used LD20 pads. The pads are common to FF and FC and there are numerous sources for pads. Weight of the assembly in the picture is very close to the weight of the brake drum assembly it replaces. The caliper can be produced by ICP and in quantity might be as little a $100 each.

Keeping the track width of the FV with a disk brake setup and using the FV wheels is a real challenge. What I have here is something that I think can be done for around $1000 to $1500 for a car set. And yes there is still more work to do to get this ready to try on a car. The caliper bracket will need some work to be certain it does not limit steering lock. Bottom line is FV can have disk brakes and at a reasonable cost.

[2Dogs]

So are there conversion kits that will work or is this going to require a custom setup?

[Matt Clark]

So are there conversion kits that will work or is this going to require a custom setup?

There is a very reasonable bolt-on conversion being sorted right now, that everyone should be very happy with.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

So has this been approved for 2018 or are they asking for member input on the concept?

Scott

[leftwingorange]

Will the package being looked at increase the track width? Don't want to get a new trailer!

Phil

[2Dogs]

So has this been approved for 2018 or are they asking for member input on the concept?

Scott

I sent the committee a note of support.

[Matt Clark]

It appears that the Ad Hoc is asking the Board to look at it now. Several people have been working on or with the Ad Hoc on getting it this far. It is up to the Board to ask for additional member input.

As far as track width goes... so far, that shall stay the same. The goal is for there to be no real performance advantage, so as to not make converting a "requirement".

[tgaluardi]

This will fix FV like Honda fixed FF and Zetec fixed FC. Look at those large field of cars. I'm glad Steve thinks $1500 plus is reasonable. I have raced on a shoestring budget for over 40 years and this might put me out.

[Matt Clark]

This will fix FV like Honda fixed FF and Zetec fixed FC. Look at those large field of cars. I'm glad Steve thinks $1500 plus is reasonable. I have raced on a shoestring budget for over 40 years and this might put me out.

Again, this update will be optional + the goal is no performance change. There has been a LOT of pushback about a car that still uses drum brakes in this era.
Also, do not forget that the insane price of shoes + some drums goes away with the disc brakes. So what may seem like a huge cost is actually a savings in a short amount of time.
And as far as the Honda argument goes, after racing with FRP, I see that it has helped. There are a LOT of people that have made the conversion + love the ease of operation. Again with that, a bit of an initial investment to change, but day to day use is simplified, and end cost is way less. Greg Rice has an excellent post along these lines with his Tweener Conversion post.

[B Farnham]

The younger guys want discs, plain and simple. As Matt said there won't be any performance advantage because at the end of the day we're limited by the tires not the drums (with braking force).

All this does is makes the cars easier to maintain, more appealing and cheaper to run after the inital investment. If you don't want to convert no problem, but at least give people the option.

[DanW]

Racing in the same run group as FV, I'm convinced FV drivers never use their brakes.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

The younger guys want discs, plain and simple. As Matt said there won't be any performance advantage because at the end of the day we're limited by the tires not the drums (with braking force).



All this does is makes the cars easier to maintain, more appealing and cheaper to run after the inital investment. If you don't want to convert no problem, but at least give people the option.

Brian is correct the tire is the limiting factor to the overall braking ability of the car. Besides that for us tall guys the consistent 1/4" brake pedal travel provided by disc brakes throughout the race sure seems like a awesome benefit. The drum brakes require much more pedal travel and that travel normally seems to increase as the race goes on. Can't remember how many times my pedal has hit the beam by the end if the race because I ran out of travel.

I had a Formula first and the disc brakes were amazing. Cost $30.00 to replace the pucks in all four calipers.

The whole thing sounds great to me!

[Chris Elwell]

Finally another step in the right direction. FV can move up to the 1980's now instead of the 1950's. There's a reason car manufacturers stopped using drum brakes decades ago.

The initial cost will be offset by all the time you save when you stop adjusting the drum brakes, no more $500 shoes and no more cracked drums. Like others have said, in the long run it will be better and make no difference to the racing.

[BLS]

"Besides that for us tall guys..."

Yep, I need every quarter inch I can get.

[Hardingfv32]

First I would like to know where we are going to get the parts. The discs and calipers are not a big issue but where do we source the correct hubs for our wide 5 pattern? The inexpensive units seem to have the disc and hub cast as one unit. I am a little nervous about the strength of these casting.

Airkewld seems to have kits available with billet hubs that mount separate discs. (Their discs are drilled so they might not meet the proposed rule.) The bigger issue is the prices. On the order of $1200 for the front and $1200 for the rear.

I think there are some prints out there for these hubs but I do not see how we find anyone willing to fund a small run of parts.

While I am all for the disc conversion… I require a source of reasonably priced parts. While this is a simple proposal I am not sure it is anymore cost effective than going to a ball joint front end and 4-bolt wheels.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

First I would like to know where we are going to get the parts. The discs and calipers are not a big issue but where do we source the correct hubs for our wide 5 pattern? The inexpensive units seem to have the disc and hub cast as one unit. I am a little nervous about the strength of these casting.

Airkewld seems to have kits available with billet hubs that mount separate discs. (Their discs are drilled so they might not meet the proposed rule.) The bigger issue is the prices. On the order of $1200 for the front and $1200 for the rear.

I think there are some prints out there for these hubs but I do not see how we find anyone willing to fund a small run of parts.

While I am all for the disc conversion… I require a source of reasonably priced parts. While this is a simple proposal I am not sure it is anymore cost effective than going to a ball joint front end and 4-bolt wheels.

Brian

stay tuned for more details, maybe after/during this weekend, but the parts so far are really, really nice billet parts made in the USA & available just by going to a website to order. there should not be any issue with strength, and price is a fraction of the $1200 per axle as you mentioned. you may like some other things about them as well.
there are a lot of very smart, highly respected & experienced people working on this. I am pretty sure we all will like the end result.

[pacratt]

If you're concerned about the initial cost of the new parts, remember this:
Each entire brake assembly (bearing cap, drum, backing plate, slave cylinder, shoes, clips, springs, etc.) can be sold in total to us Vintage Vee racers to help offset your new investment.
We're still using the old stuff.
Nothing at your end will be write-off / going to waste.
Glenn

[S Lathrop]

I have been told that there are now issues finding front brake drums that are serviceable in a racing application. One competitor had a front drum failure on the first time out.

[BLS]

"Airkewld seems to have kits available..."

Brian, what I see for 5x205mm lug pattern adds 3/8" track width per side, so would not work for FV. Price with Ghia caliper is OK at $695, but I think it can be done for less.

[Lucien j LeBlanc]

"Airkewld seems to have kits available..."

Brian, what I see for 5x205mm lug pattern adds 3/8" track width per side, so would not work for FV. Price with Ghia caliper is OK at $695, but I think it can be done for less.

The Ghia caliper (also used on early Type 3 cars) is readily available and cheap to buy and I have them on my FST car and my vintage FSV Lola. The problem with these calipers is that they are very heavy and using them would be a performance disadvantage in terms of unsprung weight. The inexpensive 5 bolt front disc brake kits offered by CB performance for example add even more weight and are an unsuitable choice for the link pin front end. The proposed rule change, if adopted, should provide a disc brake set up equivalent in unsprung weight to the current drum brake setup so with the tire grip being the limiting factor on braking there is no performance advantage other than reduced brake fade. The initial cost of $1500 is not that unreasonable and no one has to stop using the drums if they choose not to convert.

I have had a FV car for thirty years so I have experience with drum brakes, disc brakes are a no brainer with the proposed rule change in my opinion.


Lou LeBlanc



.

[Dietmar]

I have been told that there are now issues finding front brake drums that are serviceable in a racing application. One competitor had a front drum failure on the first time out.


Have sold upwards of 40 ( Italian) front drums this year . Have not heard any comments or concerns.
If you buy Chinese, you get Chinese.

Dietmar
Quixote Racing

[lucky13]

I never understood the complaint about adjusting drum brakes. If that is too difficult for you, perhaps race prep isn't for you. Having said that, I'm all for disc brakes being legal and I am especially anxious to see what Matt Clark has been talking about.

Like everyone has stated ad nauseum, tires are the limiting factor. But the lack of fade over time WILL make threshold braking with the discs an advantage over drums later in a race.

If cost is an issue, you are very likely being outspent by the people at the front anyhow. The fact that they now will have brakes that are easier to maintain and won't fade is the least of your problems.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I never understood the complaint about adjusting drum brakes. If that is too difficult for you, perhaps race prep isn't for you. Having said that, I'm all for disc brakes being legal and I am especially anxious to see what Matt Clark has been talking about.

I don't think that anyone is saying that it is too hard to adjust the drum brakes it's just more of a hassle.

Like everyone has stated ad nauseum, tires are the limiting factor. But the lack of fade over time WILL make threshold braking with the discs an advantage over drums later in a race.

I have not had brake fade problems when using a high quality shoe. Maybe others have with the cheaper shoes.

If cost is an issue, you are very likely being outspent by the people at the front anyhow. The fact that they now will have brakes that are easier to maintain and won't fade is the least of your problems.

I can afford the $500.00 carbotech's I just don't think it in the spirit of the class. Would like to see a cheaper option. Obviously the disc conversion is going to cost some $$$ but I believe it makes the car better, safer, and slightly more modern. Additionally, since you drive a Citation you don't probably have any brake pedal travel problems but for the rest of us tall guys it is a big problem. Disc brake pedal travels are small and consistent throughout the race.

[Hardingfv32]

I never understood the complaint about adjusting drum brakes.

If you think that adjusting the brakes is all that is required of the current FV brake system …. then there is a good chance you are leaving something on the table.

Reduced maintenance is a strong element of this proposal.

Brian

[lucky13]

If you think that adjusting the brakes is all that is required of the current FV brake system …. then there is a good chance you are leaving something on the table.

Reduced maintenance is a strong element of this proposal.

Brian

I understand the argument for "reduced maintenance" but I also enjoy preparing a car, maintaining it, and trying to optimize its systems. If I didn't, I would have a Spec Miata.

[lucky13]

I don't think that anyone is saying that it is too hard to adjust the drum brakes it's just more of a hassle.




I have not had brake fade problems when using a high quality shoe. Maybe others have with the cheaper shoes.



I can afford the $500.00 carbotech's I just don't think it in the spirit of the class. Would like to see a cheaper option. Obviously the disc conversion is going to cost some $$$ but I believe it makes the car better, safer, and slightly more modern. Additionally, since you drive a Citation you don't probably have any brake pedal travel problems but for the rest of us tall guys it is a big problem. Disc brake pedal travels are small and consistent throughout the race.

Your points are all well made and I don't disagree.

[Daryl DeArman]

deleted. . .

[Terry Abbott]

oh come on Daryl.................

[Daryl DeArman]

oh come on Daryl.................

Ha, I was just going to defend some of the SM guys. Realized it wasn't pertinent to this topic. Further, they don't need defending--they have the numbers to prove they have it figured it out.

[Terry Abbott]

Daryl, gotcha....and yes they do got that covered, we play with our SM as well for fun, great car to drive.

i can tell ya I'm sick of working on drums brakes to keep them performing 100% of the time, its a HUGE maintenance & time sucking issue. if your not spending time on your brakes your not getting good performance out of them.

now back to brake work before the Runoff's.

I'm looking forward to disc brakes on our FV's

[Offcamber1]

If you're concerned about the initial cost of the new parts, remember this:
Each entire brake assembly (bearing cap, drum, backing plate, slave cylinder, shoes, clips, springs, etc.) can be sold in total to us Vintage Vee racers to help offset your new investment.
We're still using the old stuff.
Nothing at your end will be write-off / going to waste.
Glenn

True, but won't this eliminate the ability to run SCCA one weekend, and Vintage the next with the same car? Perhaps not an issue for most, but there were a lot of cars at Indy Vintage the last few years with SCCA Club Racing stickers on them.

Would not the solution to $500 shoes be to do a spec shoe? What about SCCA Enterprises importing brake drums to control QC? (I can't believe I just suggested that.)

It's been 45 years since I've been involved with FV so I don't have a dog in this fight, but might there not be a simpler solution? This just feels like "oh, lets let them get alloy wheels in FF," then the next thing you know a set of wheels is $800 or more.

Sorry, I'm skeptical anytime SCCA tries to fix something, inevitably they make it more expensive.

Kip

[FVRacer21]

In the NE we have one of the more active groups in FV along with the Challenge Cup and Midwest Vintage guys.

At Palmer I spoke to 3 or 4 people looking to change classes and/or get into FV racing. One was a Spec Racer who did not want to spend the $14K to upgrade his car, another was the husband of a Spec Miata racer, another was a F500 driver tired of playing by themselves.

In all the conversations, they were okay with the air cooled engine, the fixed (sealed you could say) transmission, and the funny (really cheap to fix) front suspension. But they all mentioned -" do you still have drum brakes....?" .....

Kids coming out of Karts, people stepping down from other classes, it does make a difference.

You can run well if you buy the right parts (as Dietmar said). And R Pare's rear drums are probably indestructible (and most international classes still stick with rear drums). And once set up and maintained, drum shoes will still probably be the hot ticket on the fastest FV's .

But maybe it is time to take a significant, yet small step in competing, not with ourselves, but the other classes out there.

ChrisZ

[BLS]

Does any FV class outside the USA still use drum brakes?

[Dietmar]

B:
Australia if running a1200 series, discs if using 1600 engines as of 2003- I think I read that somewhere, sometime. Not positive of the date.
I can also check with my customers in Europe if needed.

Dietmar
Quixote Racing

[BLS]

Dietmar, just curious is all. Seems all the pictures of cars outside I have seen were discs, from memory anyway.

A better question would be are any of them running link pins and discs...

Thanks

[Bill Bonow]

A better question would be are any of them running link pins and discs...

New Zealand, but they allow mods to many front end components.

I think South Africa does as well, but not familiar enough with their program

[Dietmar]

Dietmar, just curious is all. Seems all the pictures of cars outside I have seen were discs, from memory anyway.

A better question would be are any of them running link pins and discs...

Thanks

As per your request, I have e-mailed 6 customers in Europe to whom I have sent offset bushings in the last year. Will let you know their replies ( if any) and one customer in Australia who runs the 1200 series.

Dietmar
Quixote Racing

[BLS]

Thanks Dietmar. It might be useful to see what components others are using.