2017 runoffs ims

[John LaRue]

Ok folks we are FIVE weeks out from the beginning of Runoffs; the date we roll through the tunnel at IMS!

Pre-Runoffs testing will begin on September 21 and is limited to four days. IRRC only Thursday has any remaining slots available; all others are fully subscribed.

It appears that SCCA's decision to take the Runoffs to iconic venues has been a massive hit in all classes including FC which currently stands at 18 entries. 1034 total entries...insane. This will certainly be an event to remember. We all clamor for more entries; kinda like the dog chasing the car; now that we have caught it what do we do? It will take patience and civility to get through the week.

As I did have the opportunity to run on the track along with a few others at the June FRP event I will share some observations about the track. (perhaps they will as well!)

First, the accommodations are first class as one would expect. The paddock will be crowded, but keep in mind this place is built to handle crowds in the range of 300,000! Restrooms - no problem. Speaking of which how nice it is to have go-jo dispensers at the wash basin!

The track is FUN to drive; it has a good flow...at least it did in the FRP/Indy GP configuration. I do not know how it will be with the added loop at 5-6.

The track is incredibly smooth. The surface is a bit interesting as there is a noticeable change from the oval to the road course, but nothing like the change from asphalt to sealer we see at MId-Ohio!

The track is not difficult to learn, but it does have some nuances to turning a fast lap.

Aero? What can I say...look at the main straight! Big passing opportunities into T1, but also big risks. The start will be critical and everyone will need to mind their P's and Q's to make it through unscathed. There are bound to be charges from behind, the big draft, into T1 on the start! The corner just invites 3-5 wide challenges, but it narrows at a break neck pace.

Tires? We ran on the Pro Hoosier Radial in June and they worked quite well. Will the reduced rolling resistance of the radial and harder compound be better than the softer bias tire? Will Hoosier be the brand of choice?

Cars? The field is strong with VanDiemen's as expected. Yours truly and TIm MInor will carry the Citation banner. Lap times in June were very close between the VD, Citation and Radon.

Drivers?

[Bob Wright]

Here's a peek at lap times turned at the FRP event in June.

http://f2000championshipseries.com/f...dy-race-2.html

Most cars were on the Hoosier radial, a couple were on Hoosier bias tires, and I think one on Avons. As at any track, there are a couple of critical corners you have to be properly geared for. There are three very good passing zones (at least in the SVRA configuration) and at least one very technical section. As John said, the track is not hard to learn, but...

[Jtovo]

Any news / feedback on FC at the Runoffs?

[MotorCade]

That's a wide open question. Anything in particular you'd like to hear about?

[Jtovo]

That's a wide open question. Anything in particular you'd like to hear about?

"Any news / feedback on FC at the Runoffs?


Yes...I can see your confusion.

Does anyone have any news from the runoffs in regards to the FC class? Engines, chassis..,who won? Who ran well? Fun stories?

[Chris Livengood]

Austin McCusker (McCusker Jr. jr.) won convincingly in a Zetec VD. Tim Minor was nearby for a while, I missed this part of the feed, but something happened and he fell back.

[Keith Carter]

Austin McCusker (McCusker Jr. jr.) won convincingly in a Zetec VD. Tim Minor was nearby for a while, I missed this part of the feed, but something happened and he fell back.

He mixed it up with a backmarker FM and spun. The FCY caused the two groups to mix. There should have been a second pace car to pick up the FM group since they weren't intermingled yet to keep the field split for a Runoffs main race like that. It looked like he may have tried to hurry the pass in fear of losing too much distance to the leader and paid the price with contact, unfortunately. It was a great race up until then!

[MotorCade]

"Any news / feedback on FC at the Runoffs?


Yes...I can see your confusion.

Does anyone have any news from the runoffs in regards to the FC class? Engines, chassis..,who won? Who ran well? Fun stories?

No confusion, but I could write pages. No need to be snide, I was hoping you might have a topic in particular you are interested in.

I can tell you loads about how the pintos stacked up against the zetec, but i'll be accused of opening old wounds.

We worked hard, we had a lot of fun.

[DaveW]

John LaRue was punted off into the gravel by a competitor in T3 on the 1st lap, ending his race. He thought that a couple of changes he made after the last qualifying should have made it possible to seriously contend for the win. Too bad we will never know how that would have worked out.

[speedywoods]

Had a great time and the people we met were all helpful and encouraging. We had the oldest car entered a pinto powered rf93 and being the youngest driver at 17 in group. We found ourselves within one second of the two zetecs just in front of us and 1.5 sec of the 4th place zetec, we finished 7th. I'm saying this because I believe the pinto can be competitive and we had a blast so get your pinto powered car out and go play. Big thanks to Rob Allaer and his team for the help and advice they shared.

[MotorCade]

It was an interesting week - test sessions were a bit frustrating, at least on Saturday, when we spent the most of the day under BFA or FCY. Too many cars in group to get much of a clean lap, and as we make speed differently from the cars we were grouped with, there were too many times to count when an FE or FM got past us on the straight and then slowed up our turns. The choice there was either be an ass or let them by and try to get another lap in and hope it ends up clean. It never did, of course.

There were 4 pinto cars there - two were mine - a 94 and a 97. The 94 started the week with a 'tired' motor that got replaced with a fresh quicksilver (with about 1.5 hours on it) for the race. The 97 was Justin Pritchard's former national car, and while the bodywork shows some stress cracks, the mechanicals were all fresh, tip to tail, including only this season on the motor. It's a small car, low frontal area, and we ran both cars pretty close to flat on aero. Modern diffuser on the 97 and narrow diffuser on the 94, which doesn't have sidepods, either.

The other two pintos were Tyler's car, a 93 with Pennon bodywork mixed with some custom stuff, and Bill Hoops' 99. A conversation with Bill suggested that he believed his pinto made great power and would "outrun any of the zetecs on the straight, but couldn't get out of the corners as well."

In practice/qual sessions, the 94 (with old motor) trapped at 128.088 (exactly that for one practice and two qualifiers), and the 97 also trapped at 128 and change. We were touching redline in fourth just a hair before the braking zone, so I think we might have squeezed another mph out of each.

Tyler's car (fresh motor) and Bill's car both trapped at 133.

We changed the motor on the 94 for the race (the thought process was "what do we have to lose?"), and trapped at 129 (almost) during the race. So the gamble didn't really pay off. Mike's car experienced a battery failure and he dropped several laps in. Bill Hoops spun early on, and later dropped for reasons unknown to me. My new motor appears to have blown a head gasket, contaminated the oil, and then spun a bearing/threw a rod. It popped hard on the back straight. I haven't pulled it out to check, but it ran great up until it didn't, on the last lap. I had planned to dyno it after the race, as we ran out of time with the swap to squeeze it into the dyno operator's schedule. Obviously not going to have that data, now.

My observation with the zetecs is that the slowest zetecs were running 132mph, and the fastest were 140.

Tyler is an exceptional driver - way out on the end of the bell curve for talent. He managed to find some time during the race, as we all did, but he found the most. It was still not enough to gain on the zetecs, once he lost the draft on the restart. My cars, with a speed differential between 7-12 mph on the straight, could not even hang on in the draft.

That means the FMs, after the FCY/Safety car and restart, would get past on the straights and dive in on the corners, making things a mess for us in the back, just compounding the problems faced with catching back up. In short, it wasn't happening. Plus, the first lap after the restart, my car was running very cool and didn't make power until it heated back up. I needed to do a better job of thermal management.

My personal opinion is not that anyone is "trying" to cheat. The post-CRB discussion was very positive, and it sounded like there is some recognition that something needs to be done to bring cars out of retirement, either under their current owners or to be sold to someone interested in racing them.

I believe the zetecs making around 133 are certainly legal, and modern aero has an advantage here that helps that. I do think there is a big power differential between the zetecs and pintos, and all four of our motors were prepped to the full extent of the rules, to my knowledge. I believe further sorting on my cars could have gotten our speeds up into the low 130 range. I do not think we could have reached 133, but maybe. We certainly could not have reached 138-140, like many of the front running cars were doing. Without making any accusations, the data suggests that there is a clear difference between the powerplants, and even a distinction amongst some of the zetecs.

I'm in contact with John LaRue, and I will pen a letter to the CRB. I'm not sure yet what the exact content of that will look like. I am with Tyler in the sense that the pintos are close enough in handling to the modern cars that this doesn't have to be a major change. I would like to push for reliability modifications to the motor first and foremost, and if a slight power bump comes out of that, I don't see that as a big deal to the existing hierarchy, especially as the zetecs have less wear on the frames and other components, as well as better developed aero.

Another really interesting proposal was suggested to me, and I'm not sure it would be workable, but the idea was this: Allow the FF Honda Fit conversion (1600cc) into our class with appropriate removal of the restrictor and an ecu map. This could bring the reliability, get the cars out of garages with an existing kit, and allow for ease of running in either class, with only a few parts changes. I see a lot of value to this idea. But, it's a whole separate idea and I don't want to throw too many cans o' worms out there just yet.

Beyond that, it was really great to meet some of the other competitors, thrash our way through our first runoffs, and generally have a lot of fun and very little sleep!

Big congrats to McCusker, and big sympathies to the others who, like us, experienced the agony of having to drop out.

Cheers,

Cade

[rallaer]

I believe further sorting on my cars could have gotten our speeds up into the low 130 range. I do not think we could have reached 133, but maybe. We certainly could not have reached 138-140, like many of the front running cars were doing. Without making any accusations, the data suggests that there is a clear difference between the powerplants, and even a distinction amongst some of the zetecs.

Must be the nitrous that Austin, Tim, John and I bought before the weekend. Or it was the power pills we poured into the fuel cell.


I'm sure it has nothing to do with R&D, experience, prep, time, effort or driving ability.


Congrats to Austin. Great drive in rough conditions.


Enjoyed meeting a lot of new faces. Hope to see you down the road!



Rob Allaer
FC #52

[MotorCade]

As I said, not making accusations. All those things are factors, and all of you drove well. However, our cars reached vMax a full 7-12 mph lower. Vmax takes power. That straight made for an effective dyno, being as all the cars could hit their own vmax, regardless of how well the driver got out of the corner.

Note that im not asking to hamper your cars. I'm asking for some reliability mods and it's clear you shouldn't be scared of those potentially producing an extra hp or two.

Put another way: legal, illegal, something in between, I don't care. It's clear that SCCA is treating this as new normal, so rather than pull the zetecs back to parity with the old pinto, it's more beneficial to allow us to play in our own group or to try to come up to the zetec power level. Or both, because if we can get the numbers out, we can get more data.

[Will Velkoff]

If I was a Pinto driver that was 7-12 mph down to a Zetec, I would most certainly be questioning my engine health or engine builders abilities. At that point you are basically trapping the same speeds as a FF which is a problem IMO

[MotorCade]

Agreed. Which is why the rest of the field data set is so interesting.

[problemchild]

If I was a Pinto driver that was 7-12 mph down to a Zetec, I would most certainly be questioning my engine health or engine builders abilities. At that point you are basically trapping the same speeds as a FF which is a problem IMO

30-35 hp might give 12 mph

[LenFC11]

I love how the new guys discount the effort it takes to truly go fast..

Of course it has to be the rules are not fair to them..

Congratulations Austin

[MotorCade]

I love how the old guys think being old is enough data to support their position. Did you read the post? I collected data. Five pinto motors across four cars. 10 zetecs. That's a great sampling. I'be spent the last decade in aerospace using physics and statistics to cut to the heart of problems like this that have too much emotion and politics holding back a solution.

I'm not upset at all about where the pintos finished, btw. I fully expected us to be in the back. The real interesting finding was the split in trap speeds of the zetec population. I'm curious just exactly what kind of driver skill helps with increasing vMax. Are you guys ducking, kart style? Come on now. Coefficient of drag and frontal area is very similar across the population and most similar across the cars running each motor, so there is some variation in the data there, and likely some in rolling resistance of the tires. I'd like to know which cars ran which tires, it could be an interesting variable to study. But if this was a taguchi study, the most important variable is power.

This is NOT to take away from the great drive by those that put themselves on the podium. They still had a good field to contend with, and cars of similar spec at both ends of the grid.

I'm only pointing out that we now have data that was previously unavailable thanks to that long straight, and maybe we can use it to put some of this issue away and get more pintos back out. My only other option to get this data was to protest, and I'd rather not be that guy.

[MotorCade]

30-35 hp might give 12 mph

Lol. Isn't that what they do in FV?

[MotorCade]

30-35 hp might give 12 mph

Being more serious, you're pretty close. If Cd and frontal area were identical, we can expect a 36hp difference over 12mph. 21hp to go from 133 to 140. Realistically I know that's not all hp. Massive differences from the Mack truck bodywork of my 94 to the newer stuff.

As mentioned previously, the real interest is in looking at the differences between the similar bodies. Hoops made 133 (vMax) with a 99VD. Some zetecs made 133. Some made 140. Difference if purely power, would be 21 hp, just for those extra seven mph. So the question is, how much of that is attributable to other setup changes? It's possible that all of it is. I won't rule that out. It's also likely that some is attributable to power differences, as it takes a pretty drastic change in Cd to achieve the same effect. To do it all via setup requires a reduction to the Cd by .06, which is massive. I didn't see anyone running speedway wings and skinny tires, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that didn't happen.

A reasonable reduction in Cd might be by .02, perhaps achieved with running radials, zero rear toe, flatter wing angle, and taping up. Calculate for that, and it covers 8 of those hp needed. Leaves us still 13 hp required to get to 140. My gut says that's too big of a spread, maybe the front runners managed to knock off .03 on Cd? That's a lot, but possible. Still have a gap of about 8hp to get up to 140, which is around what the debate was before. I don't have enough variables pinned down to get a final answer. What I do have is enough to say that (going to go statistician on you here) "with a high degree of confidence", there is a power advantage between the 133 trap speed cars and the 140 trap speed cars, even when allowing significant leeway for setup. .

Math is fun.

[MotorCade]

I've had a couple comments sent my way about being bitter. Nothing further from the truth! Exceptionally happy for the winners, I do recognize the massive work to get there, and my trap speed observations are only front straight stuff, everyone still had the rest of the track and other drivers to contend with. I'm looking at one piece that takes the driver out as much as possible. If we were talking full laps, a lot has to come together, power or not. I made some great new friends and I'm proud to be a part of what this class accomplished this year. I'd like to see it be even better in the future. That's all this is about.

I heartily congratulate the winners!

edit to add: the car that trapped fastest in qualifying was not the winner.

[Purple Frog]

While i no longer can afford to have a dog in the hunt, i am still a fan of FC/F2000. I appreciate your attempt to apply science to analyze the issue at hand.

It is my opinion that after all your effort, the delta will be about 7 - 8 hp comparing the average pinto against average zetec.

There are so many factors that contribute to the speed of the front runners. The intensity of those teams development can not be over stated. I know they test with tire manufacturers to develop compounds that balance grip against rolling resistance. I have attended these tests on occasion. Much can be said about Avon's tire program, even though i am a die-hard Hoosier guy. (its a purple thing) Don't be shocked to discover that the factory supported guys are getting a compound you may not know about. There is no spec tire rule in SCCA FC. A prime reason the pro series went to a spec tire rule.

The aero work the top teams do to cut drag is a bit anal. Attention to bodywork edges, fit , etc. Then there is toe, camber, caster. At 140 the top dogs may be running on only a small tire patch that is running with no "scrub".

All that said, it really comes down to who builds the Pinto engine, and how large the budget is for that build. This was proven many times in the past by Niki. With the right budget Steve at Elite, or Erik/Sandy at QS will build a legal pinto that will do an honest 152-154 hp. We are talking expensive. Just the right head casting must be found. Every part gets special attention. Having torn down top engines, i was always amazed at the little details i would see that sets them apart from most Pinto builds. $$$ Few are willing to spend what it requires.

The 7 - 8 hp delta that many pintos suffer (not Niki's) could be achieved probably best with a carb that doesn't act as a restrictor, and a bump in compression.

That will bring all the average Pintos up. Be forewarned of unintended consequences. For it will allow a person with the means ($$$) to build a dominate "killer motor" Pinto that could out perform any sealed Zetec.

All this mental exercise is nice on a rainy Sunday morning, but all said and done, if a Pinto owner wants to compete with a Zetec then they must be willing to spend more on their engine program than a zetec owner has to spend. That economic model became obvious to most by the end of 2005.

[MotorCade]

Thanks, Frog.

My gut feeling is the 7-8hp delta is probably right. I'm not overlooking the intense work done by top teams, though to be honest with ourselves, we are far from the heyday of our class. Those teams have moved on to FE, F4, F3, FB, P1. We've got some very hardworking prep shops and ingenuity in our privateers.

If there was someone/many teams in our class doing all of what you suggest, let them say so and I'll stand corrected. My feeling in the paddock was that we're largely a club level group with the aforementioned work ethic and ingenuity. Heck, we tried a lot of what you suggest, and even taped up. I didn't see any of the zetecs tape. Maybe I just didn't see it. I'm open to the idea that I could be completely wrong. That's why I put the hypothesis out there for all. Am I missing something major, or am I close? I think you're suggesting I'm close.

The nuts and bolts of the issue is your final assertion: that in order to be competitive, a pinto guy must outspend the zetec guy. All I'm asking is "why must this be so, and is there anything we can do about it?" And I'm approaching the issue first with "does a disparity actually exist?" Before I try to take on the "then what options are available?" My goal is to bring pintos out to play.

One thing that really has my mind working is this idea of allowing the FF hondas in with comparative power. I see some challenge but also a ton of possible potential. That's for another day.

[LenFC11]

Cade

You just sound like a whinner.. I'm not fast.. change the rules.. whaaa. Whaaa.. whaaaa

The experienced gained with time in the sport can not had any other way..

There is so much more to the equation then hp.. Mike gave you one example with tires.. another obvious one is how fast you go through the corner before.. but I'm sure you just as fast through the corners as the podium guys so must be the rules.. there are likely hundreds more examples that you are not considering.. and no one is going to tell you.. you will have to figure it out on your own.

You obviously have not been around a top pro level prepped car to understand the effort put into their program or you would not say half the things you do

[MotorCade]

Len, not only can you not spell, you still can't read. We came out to Indy knowing full well we'd be at the back. Again, doesn't bother me at all.

Were you even there? If not, you're worse than a whiner, you're merely in the peanut gallery. You've contributed nothing useful to this thread. Kindly allow the grown ups to discuss the issues affecting our class, so that we might stand a chance of having a class in a few years. Indy was enough to get us off probation but doesn't fix the underlying problems in the class.

[LenFC11]

Clearly you don't like it if anyone with more knowledge then you disagrees with you so I'll will let you get back to trying to change the rules to help your inadequate driving and car prep

[MotorCade]

Clearly you don't like it if anyone with more knowledge then you disagrees with you so I'll will let you get back to trying to change the rules to help your inadequate driving and car prep

As you haven't shared knowledge, other than trying to sling insults, I'm finding it hard to know what I should learn from you. Facts don't care about your feelings. Bring some, and I'll be happy to learn.

I dont know know how to say it any better: I've said multiple times that given same car, I'd probably still be in the back. Likely true, as while I do have my own lap records out there, not in this class, and I have a lot to learn about these cars. I'm merely presenting data about the persistent issue brought up. I'm a test engineer for a living, for one of the big three. Data is what I do.

I'm not accusing anyone of cheating, I'm saying that development has moved on. I'm not looking to put pintos at the front. But surely we should have some overlap with the middle? Geez. Don't we all want closer, more affordable racing? I've rarely met a group this resistant to change, and never one with their own future so in doubt.

[Mike B]

Tone it down, boys. We'd all hate to see an otherwise productive thread get locked down.

[John Green]

Cade

You just sound like a whinner.. I'm not fast.. change the rules.. whaaa. Whaaa.. whaaaa

The experienced gained with time in the sport can not had any other way..

There is so much more to the equation then hp.. Mike gave you one example with tires.. another obvious one is how fast you go through the corner before.. but I'm sure you just as fast through the corners as the podium guys so must be the rules.. there are likely hundreds more examples that you are not considering.. and no one is going to tell you.. you will have to figure it out on your own.

You obviously have not been around a top pro level prepped car to understand the effort put into their program or you would not say half the things you do

i
Wow, nasty reply. I get enough of that on Facebook. Cade is making a thoughtful post considering a single aspect of parity between the two engines. Your reply should be as thoughtful and respectful.

[LenFC11]

John..

It's ok if we have a different opinion..

Cade

Knowledge cost time or money.. If you want to see the next level hire me for a weekend.. I'm sure I can help you

[MotorCade]

i
Wow, nasty reply. I get enough of that on Facebook. Cade is making a thoughtful post considering a single aspect of parity between the two engines. Your reply should be as thoughtful and respectful.

Thank you John. I have been having some offline discussion with Rob and I want to clarify some things that may have gotten obscured in this as it got heated. 1. I don't think anyone cheated. The builders have had 15 years of zetec development and the chassis are more modern. 2. I believe the front runners earned it. I recognize it takes a great deal of effort. 3. I'm not asking to put pintos on the pole. 4. The event was a hell of a lot of fun and I'm already making plans for Sonoma. 5. This was only talking trap speed, not all the other necessities to get around the track quickly.

My numero uno point of all this: Anyone worried about mods to increase the running life of pintos might somehow upset the order of things need not fret about it.

Len, I'm going to pass, but thank you.

[Jtovo]

Didn't Coello win the Runoffs at Road America in a Pinto? That is a MOTOR track for sure. And when he did. I was driving what I would consider one of the most developed "money is no "object" cars. We were literally flying in aero bits for the race.

And he crushed me.

And if we switched cars. He would have crushed me. Pinto's can run the speeds, if they are developed well and setup right.

Nicholas Coello / East Troy WI / Milwpouredfoundations.com/Hoosier TireVan Diemen RF-01No time2:14.107 2:12.511258
Revere Greist / Madison WI / MilwWaypoint Health Innovations/Arms UpVan Diemen DP07No time2:14.859 2:12.969388
Justin Pritchard / Granville OH / LSupHoosier, Elite, Raceday, K-HillVan Diemen 992:44.9832:13.738 2:13.051432
Kirk Kindsfater / Fort Collins CO / MilwOrtho Center Rockies/K&N/Arms UpsVan Diemen RF-005:06.9432:16.939 2:14.497596
Brian Tomasi / Elgin IL / ChiAlligatorBrd/Hoosier/Subway/RMXNovaVan Diemen RF-01No time2:26.563 2:14.67963

But I get this post was "supposed" to be about cost and longevity of the Pinto. However when someone says that they don't think someone is cheating, yet question how someone could be so fast legally...that is called talking out both side of your mouth.

If you have a newer car and plan to continue in FC...save the aggravation and just convert. Or sell the Pinto powered car and buy a Zetec. If handled right, the cost would be close to that of just a Pinto rebuild.

My kids are in karting now. They are twins, 7 years old. We just got back from the Cup Nationals. Sealed / spec motors. One kid WALKED away from us. Literally just motored away. Most parents are calling FOUL. I timed the kid the first 100 feet out of the tight corners, that is where he was making his time up. Looked at the data, his slowest speed on the lap was almost 3 MPH faster than my kids. And while other parents are protesting among themselves...I tell them to brace themselves. Because it NEVER ends in racing. And this post proves it.

[MotorCade]

But I get this post was "supposed" to be about cost and longevity of the Pinto. However when someone says that they don't think someone is cheating, yet question how someone could be so fast legally...that is called talking out both side of your mouth.

Engineer, not a writer. Was trying to say, "I'm not interested in opening the debate of whether or not this is legal." Clearly screwed that up.

Any normal track, exit speed matters. This one was so interesting to me precisely because of how much less it mattered to trap speed (not lap time) for this one straight. There are always imperfections in any data set. The best we can do is attempt to understand the variables and assumptions and use the data for what we hope to learn. No griping, no accusations, just data and some interesting ways of reading it.

As for competitiveness, I'm looking into zetec options for both myself and my rentals. Cheers

[Darren Brown]

[B]
Engineer, not a writer. Was trying to say, "I'm not interested in opening the debate of whether or not this is legal." Clearly screwed that up.

Any normal track, exit speed matters. This one was so interesting to me precisely because of how much less it mattered to trap speed (not lap time) for this one straight. There are always imperfections in any data set. The best we can do is attempt to understand the variables and assumptions and use the data for what we hope to learn. No griping, no accusations, just data and some interesting ways of reading it.

As for competitiveness, I'm looking into zetec options for both myself and my rentals. Cheers

Curious why you think at Indy the exit speed for the last couple of corners don't matter to trap speed. Now I will admit I was not at indy and have not raced in several years.


Unless the cars stop accelerating you are not at max velocity limited by drag or hp. From the in car videos I have seen all classes of cars are still gaining mph before braking for turn 1.

We used to run the long TWS track with over half the oval at full throttle, the car was still accelerating (albeit slowly) at the entrance to turn 1 over a mile away from from entrance to the oval. I have found exit speed from the previous corner will almost always dictate top speed before the next corner.

Just curious about your reason, not arguing with you.

Keep in mind I am not engineer and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn. I have however raced formula cars for 20 years.

Darren

[MotorCade]

Curious why you think at Indy the exit speed for the last couple of corners don't matter to trap speed. Now I will admit I was not at indy and have not raced in several years.


Unless the cars stop accelerating you are not at max velocity limited by drag or hp. From the in car videos I have seen all classes of cars are still gaining mph before braking for turn 1.

We used to run the long TWS track with over half the oval at full throttle, the car was still accelerating (albeit slowly) at the entrance to turn 1 over a mile away from from entrance to the oval. I have found exit speed from the previous corner will almost always dictate top speed before the next corner.

Just curious about your reason, not arguing with you.

Keep in mind I am not engineer and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn. I have however raced formula cars for 20 years.

Darren

Solid question, and I'm hoping my assumption is valid that the cars are very close to their maximum. Redline in fourth. I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption, given the focus of all teams on getting gearing right. If that's correct, the cars will still be accelerating but not very rapidly by then. Pretty much, I'm counting on them being on or very near their peak capability or even a touch past the peak as the curve rounds over.

oh, also the sheer length. Exit speed still mattered, but it was s very slow corner leading onto a very very long straight. Run up used 1st to fourth.

[Peter Olivola]

There was an interesting phenomenon observed, IIRC, in Donohue's The Unfair Advantage, at the 1971 Questor Grand Prix at Ontario Motor Speedway. It seems most drivers were exiting the infield onto the oval and allowing the car to immediately drift up to the wall. Jackie Stewart, OTOH, held the car low on the apron until the banking had fully flattened out. He won with the fastest lap time.

From what I saw of Runoffs, there were people all over the place with their line out of the last turn.

Solid question, and I'm hoping my assumption is valid that the cars are very close to their maximum. Redline in fourth. I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption, given the focus of all teams on getting gearing right. If that's correct, the cars will still be accelerating but not very rapidly by then. Pretty much, I'm counting on them being on or very near their peak capability or even a touch past the peak as the curve rounds over.

oh, also the sheer length. Exit speed still mattered, but it was s very slow corner leading onto a very very long straight. Run up used 1st to fourth.

[Darren Brown]

There was an interesting phenomenon observed, IIRC, in Donohue's The Unfair Advantage, at the 1971 Questor Grand Prix at Ontario Motor Speedway. It seems most drivers were exiting the infield onto the oval and allowing the car to immediately drift up to the wall. Jackie Stewart, OTOH, held the car low on the apron until the banking had fully flattened out. He won with the fastest lap time.

From what I saw of Runoffs, there were people all over the place with their line out of the last turn.

Now that is a great point. Years ago the first races at TMS the supps specified that we had to use the apron. A few years later they lifted that requirement and we could use Nascar 3 and 4. When I was in a Vee in pratice we all came off the final corner, 4 of them went up on the banking. I stayed on the apron to take the shorter line and beat them back to turn 1. The next session they were all back on the apron.

The apron was quicker and at the speeds of a vee and my ff did not scrub anymore speed than going on the oval.

Darren

[MotorCade]

Interesting. Not sure about the other competitors, but I opened up to allow the car best chance to use the power. I tried a tighter line one lap and it wasn't as quick for me. It seemed the others were taking a similar line, but I can't say for sure on their flying laps.

[Darren Brown]

Only way to really tell the difference between motors on the track (not dyno) is same car, driver, track, and weather conditions with both power plants in the same chassis. Pretty much impossible. So the next best thing is dyno information and race results. Not perfect, but that is best we can hope for.

I have been looking to get back to racing next year, and the engine parity in FC or FF is and has not been one of my concerns in making a decision for which class to come back too.

[hdsporty1988]

To point out the obvious, Pinto and Zetec NEED each other! This is a class that is barely hanging on and can't afford to alienate participants. Good conversation is healthy for everyone, sniping and taking talking points out of context isn't productive. Encouraging each other and sharing information and opinions is productive. I myself returned to racing this year after a long layoff and have learned a lot from the contributors to this site. For that I thank everyone. The animosity drives me crazy.