What engines are everyone using?

[stewyb]

Hi All,

I am wondering what engines people are using in their FB's.

Here in Australia we are limited to Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki up to 2008 models. Also the standard ECU must be used. We are looking to update the rules to allow the newer engines to be used as we all know 08 Suzuki's are becoming hard to come by.

I would like to know if anyone has had good/bad experiences with the newer engines.

Is there anywhere we can go to buy brand new create engines, as most people would prefer a brand new engine then a second hand unknown engine?

Thanks in advance

[JerryH]

We have not been successful in convincing any of the manufacturers to sell us new crate engines.

08 Suzuki, 09 and up Suzuki, 2011 and up Kawasaki, and a Honda or two is what is being used here.

The newest crop of engines (2017) have yet to show up. Overcoming the elevtronics will be a challenge.

A few tried the 09 BMW, but could not overcome the electronics using the stock ecu. One has run in the upper northwest recently.

Scca added 25 lbs to engines made after 2008 in an attempt to compensate for the power difference.

The North American Formula 1000 Champiomship rules are the same as Scca.

Briefly that means stock internally, stock throttle body, stock or factory racing ecu.

Jerry Hodges
JDR Race Cars

[hdsporty1988]

I can tell you as a motorcycle rider, that there are any number of low mileage used bikes available in the northern states where the season is limited. Just takes a little searching.

[ghickman]

Hi All,

I am wondering what engines people are using in their FB's.

Here in Australia we are limited to Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki up to 2008 models. Also the standard ECU must be used. We are looking to update the rules to allow the newer engines to be used as we all know 08 Suzuki's are becoming hard to come by.

I would like to know if anyone has had good/bad experiences with the newer engines.

Is there anywhere we can go to buy brand new create engines, as most people would prefer a brand new engine then a second hand unknown engine?

Thanks in advance

I own 2 FB's each with different engines.

The Suzuki 07/08 became the standard mainly because it was simple to make run as a wet sump, has an ECU which was easily converted to function in a race car, and has a gear box that is buttery smooth.

My 2011 Kawi ZX10 powered car was much more complicated to make it run in a race car. To make it run as a wet sump was a feat in itself. Once I got past that had to build an air box to carry the overhead gantry injectors. The Kawi has a crappy gearbox and will only behave with a Geartronics assisted shifter. Now I have to run 25 lbs additional weight in the Kawi car, not happy about that.

Any bike engine built in the last 3 or 4 years we will likely not see those in a race car as the current ecu rule stands. They have too many bike dependent multi axis gyros, speed sensors, etc. Getting into the ecu and turning all that off is a huge hurdle. Unless the ECU rule is opened up we won't see any of the newer engines come into the game and frankly it causes the class to become stagnant.

[stewyb]

Thanks for the fast replies.

The problem with the 07/08 Suzuki's we have is they are getting old and it gets expensive to buy a motor and then fully rebuilding it and still potentially having a failure.
A crate engine would be a perfect solution if it were available.

Why are dry sumps illegal?

If the standard ECU's are a problem, why not use a controlled ECU?

[ghickman]

Thanks for the fast replies.

The problem with the 07/08 Suzuki's we have is they are getting old and it gets expensive to buy a motor and then fully rebuilding it and still potentially having a failure.
A crate engine would be a perfect solution if it were available.

Why are dry sumps illegal?

If the standard ECU's are a problem, why not use a controlled ECU?

1) Yep the 07/08 are getting long in the tooth. A good engine builder that knows these engines well is your first step to prolonging the life of the engine along with proper driving techniques.

2) Crate engine likely won't happen. Bike makers have no interest in putting their power plants in cars, just not their focus.

3) Dry sumps are legal. I personally have found them to not be necessary. They complicate the packaging and add weight. The GEN4 Kawasaki ZX10R up to now would only run in a car as a dry sump, I found a work around for that.

[glenn cooper]

Hi Stewy, Just saw this.
Lots of info above, and one thing I immediately caught - the Kawi's are INCREDIBLY robust as compared to the Suzuki.
I'm gonna guess you are out of Western Australia, running in the F1000 "Stohr Series" (!)
I supply engines to the F1000/Sportsracer communitii, and have sold a few in Western Aus, and a BUNCH to SA/QLD/NSW, Thailand, too.
I know the CAMS guys have been on KawiPowa primarily - the 3rd Gen ZX10R, which is an EXCELLENT package, dare I say it might even be better than the Gen4 ZedX10R, due to it having a non CR trans.
The K7/8 GSXR was SOOOO hot here in the US, because that gen bike outsold everything else like 10 (possibly MORE) to 1, and as mentioned previously, was a breeze to make work in the car.
I just sold my last GSXR, and I have a CHERRY 3k mile 08 Kawi Gen 3 if you are so inclined.
What you guys want to do is go Gen4 Kawi - STILL easy to make run in a bike, and did I mention the robustness?

[Stan Clayton]

Just to make sure you caught this, Stew, dry sumps are perfectly legal in F-1000 here in SCCA. Don't know about CAMS, but Nick at Arise Racing in Perth will know. Ring him up. If you don't have his number, PM me and I will give you his personal mobile number.

Second, to Jerry's and Gary's point that the OEMs are not interested in crate engines, that's not entirely true. I am one of the owners of Stohr Cars, and when I called Honda a year or two ago to ask about crate engines I got an enthusiastic YES! for an answer. The downside is that they are about $7500 each, but they ARE available. My engine builder says the Honda needs a dry sump, but that should be doable. There may be other caveats as well, but the bottom line is that we are NOT stuck with decade-old engines.

As Gary and Jerry and I represent 3 of the 4 extant F-1000 builders, maybe we should get together for a coordinated letter to the CRB to back needed updating to the F-1000 rules. I'm confident the 4th won't object.

[S Lathrop]

I have built or designed the engine installations for Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Honda. One of the first Citations to race had a Yamaha engine.

When I started doing the Honda installation, many years ago, George Dean seemed to think that the Honda might be a really good engine from a durability standpoint. Also he did not think the power was as far off as many thought because of how the stock ECU functioned.

I wish I could say that the Honda performance is great but the Honda powered car would have to get to the track for that to be determined.

I will say that I watched an in car video of a Honda powered car in a F1000 race many years ago. The car was not much and overall performance was consistant. But I was absolutely impressed by what I saw in that video and I suspect that the Honda engine maybe a better option than people think.

[stewyb]

Thanks for all the info guys

Yes I'm from Australia and so you guys know your rules basically say,
Motorcycle engines of inline configuration, manufactured by Honda Suzuki, Yamaha or Kawasaki up to 2008
Engines must be standard, the standard ECU must be used but can be flashed (power commander). Wet or Dry sump is allowed.

So this is why i am asking about engines as we are looking to updating the rules to allow the newer engines to run and hence a larger pool of engines to use.

Some of our competitors would prefer a create engine to used engines as they think the history and reliability would be better.

Stan $7500 isn't that bad considering we can get an 08 Suzuki for AUD$3k and then a full rebuild including blue printing and new valves ect can cost another AUD$6k. So a create engine at around AUD$9-10k isn't really that bad.
Are Honda the only manufacture that you have found will supply create engines?


Another option that we are looking into is introducing a controlled ECU, this is being considered so that the standard ECU issues of the newer bikes are not a problem. The idea being that the ECU can only control fuel and ignition maps. This means that no one can hack the standard ECU's and make use of the traction controls and ABS ect of the newer bike engines.

What do you guys think the pros and cons of having a controlled ECU would be.

[S Lathrop]

Thanks for all the info guys

Stan $7500 isn't that bad considering we can get an 08 Suzuki for AUD$3k and then a full rebuild including blue printing and new valves ect can cost another AUD$6k. So a create engine at around AUD$9-10k isn't really that bad.
Are Honda the only manufacture that you have found will supply create engines?


Another option that we are looking into is introducing a controlled ECU, this is being considered so that the standard ECU issues of the newer bikes are not a problem. The idea being that the ECU can only control fuel and ignition maps. This means that no one can hack the standard ECU's and make use of the traction controls and ABS ect of the newer bike engines.

The stock Honda ECU won't work but they do make (Honda) a racing ECU. So Honda maybe a really good option to explore if you want a crate motor option.

[David Ferguson]

I have created a MoTeC M130 custom firmware package to run the GSXR 1000 engine (including the idle control stepper motor, but not the secondary throttles), specifically for the P2 rules (ie no traction control, turbo support, etc). This package could be developed per engine to allow newer engines to run in cars. There may even be a way to get the ECU costs reduced if it's a series spec ECU, locked to specific engines. Currently the cost of an M130 ECU is $2340, and the firmware to run the bike engine would be about $1000.

There are a lot of advantages of using an aftermarket ECU.
- This ECU would send lots of diagnostic information over the CAN bus to your dash/logger (it has diagnostics logging, too). The software used for tuning and monitoring is world-class, making it easy to tune and diagnose a problem.
- Can offer rev-matched shifting (ie, flat shifting with switch indicting shift request, and rev-matching when you manually blip the throttle on a downshift)
- Can set various engine-saving strategies, like reduced rev-limits when temps or pressures are out of line.
- This ECU supports knock control so it can be a bit more tolerant of fuel that doesn't match what it was tuned for.
- Because of the custom firmware, we can add support for specific engine feature like variable cam timing, or variable intake length.
- Supports Drive-By-Wire throttles

Any interest?

[ghickman]

I have created a MoTeC M130 custom firmware package to run the GSXR 1000 engine (including the idle control stepper motor, but not the secondary throttles), specifically for the P2 rules (ie no traction control, turbo support, etc). This package could be developed per engine to allow newer engines to run in cars. There may even be a way to get the ECU costs reduced if it's a series spec ECU, locked to specific engines. Currently the cost of an M130 ECU is $2340, and the firmware to run the bike engine would be about $1000.

There are a lot of advantages of using an aftermarket ECU.
- This ECU would send lots of diagnostic information over the CAN bus to your dash/logger (it has diagnostics logging, too). The software used for tuning and monitoring is world-class, making it easy to tune and diagnose a problem.
- Can offer rev-matched shifting (ie, flat shifting with switch indicting shift request, and rev-matching when you manually blip the throttle on a downshift)
- Can set various engine-saving strategies, like reduced rev-limits when temps or pressures are out of line.
- This ECU supports knock control so it can be a bit more tolerant of fuel that doesn't match what it was tuned for.
- Because of the custom firmware, we can add support for specific engine feature like variable cam timing, or variable intake length.
- Supports Drive-By-Wire throttles

Any interest?

To ALL current FB owners and future:
We need this!!

We've experimented with various ecu's and what Dave says is right on.

I especially like the CAN BUS and Throttle By Wire.

[jchracer]

I agree but the MoteC stuff is stupid expensive. Pro-EFI ( http://proefi.com/info/ ) would be a much better, lower cost alternative that is US based and US supported. It has all the features discussed. I have one running on one of my project vehicles and know of many other satisfied users. If used as a spec ECU, I would think discounts and US based tech support would be offered.

[NorthAmF1000]

Just an FYI - Multiple cars running at the front in F1000 (FB in amateur competition) are running engines straight out of a bike - no engine work at all. The 6-7 thousand for a full rebuild and blueprint is, from what I have been told by winning drivers - a waste of money, maybe do a top end after a full season. But, unless you run it out of oil, the bottom end will be perfectly fine. Not looking to start an argument or debate - simply adding relative information.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan $7500 isn't that bad considering we can get an 08 Suzuki for AUD$3k and then a full rebuild including blue printing and new valves ect can cost another AUD$6k. So a create engine at around AUD$9-10k isn't really that bad.
Are Honda the only manufacture that you have found will supply create engines?

Honda was the only one I found a few years ago, but a recheck of all of them would be in order before answering definitively.