Runoffs

[problemchild]

The field looks awesome.
29 entries, with more to come, including from Team Pelfrey.
Perhaps a dozen legitimate contenders.
May be the most competitive FF Runoff field in decades!!!!!!

[-pru-]

2017 National Championship Runoffs FF Entry

[chrisH]

What a field so far! Big teams, small teams, and multiple national champions. Still waiting on a few entries that will make the field even better, can't wait for Runoffs week.

Also, what I think is cool is the amount of drivers coming from the west. Over 10 cars with a 1,000+ mile tow. Will have to return the favor in 2018.

Qualifying is going to be very interesting. The draft will obviously make a big impact in lap times and with many FFs and F500s making up a similar lap time in a very different way, getting clean laps in the short sessions will be a factor.

[bhayes]

I'm really looking forward to this runoffs! Being from Indy originally, and now living in California...I can't wait to come back home, see some old friends, and have a great race week.

[andyllc]

If my math is correct, 65 cars is the max number of cars that can be on track at Indy. The FF/F500 run group now exceeds that and I am guessing will grow to the 70-75 range. Anyone know what happens? Does SCCA somehow split it up? Heck with the rules and run over the limit?

[chrisH]

I wondered the same thing, and found an email from SCCA dated January 13th:

• We will attempt to accommodate everyone that qualifies for and enters the event (assuming there is enough space). We anticipate some classes (SM, SRF3, etc.) may eclipse the 72-car limit for the length of the track. We are making plans to address this. This could mean that a run group would be split into two separate sessions (for example, a 110-car class would qualify in a pair of 55-car sessions or run a 72-car session with the remaining cars being combined with another class). Group splits will be handled by an initial "seeding" described below under "Class Seeding," and then by lap time once qualifying has begun.

It also states they will be able to accommodate 700-750 entries, which we are well past at this point:

• 2.The percentage of total pre-event, qualified entries that a class constitutes of the total entry will dictate how many invitations will be extended for each class. For example, if there are 800 total pre-event entries, of which 80 (10 percent) are Spec Miata, and we need to limit to 750 total entries, SM would receive 75 invitations (10 percent of the total).
• 3.Invitations will be sent after the early-entry deadline date (to be published with the supplemental regulations in the spring).

So if it's limited to 750 entries, FF would get 29 "invitations" as it sits now. The invitations are determined by
1. Defending Champion
2. Hoosier Super Tour Points
3. Majors Points
4. Entry Date

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks Chris...interesting. So let's look at the impact on FC, which is sitting on 10 entries. 10/872 (current # of total entries) = 0.0114678899. 0.0114678899 * 750 = 8.6, so 9 invited. That automatically means they can't recover from their probation and hence get dropped from the Runoffs classes.

If the BoD overrules the rules to invite 10 FCs, that means an invitation has to be withheld from a larger class. Spec Miata is sitting on 92 entries, while SRF3 is on 96, so presumably that one spot would have to come from one of them.

No way that could turn into an ugly scene.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Thanks Chris...interesting. So let's look at the impact on FC, which is sitting on 10 entries. 10/872 (current # of total entries) = 0.0114678899. 0.0114678899 * 750 = 8.6, so 9 invited. That automatically means they can't recover from their probation and hence get dropped from the Runoffs classes.

If the BoD overrules the rules to invite 10 FCs, that means an invitation has to be withheld from a larger class. Spec Miata is sitting on 92 entries, while SRF3 is on 96, so presumably that one spot would have to come from one of them.

No way that could turn into an ugly scene.

I would think that every class gets it's minimum # of entries first and then the excess is allocated.......

The problem is cars on track. 92? 96? Yellow flag fiesta! Only LA and NY drivers would survive that traffic jam!

[Rick Kirchner]

in 2015 at the SVRA event they ran the pace lap around the oval T1. Decided not to do that this year, and with 40 car fields was very difficult to get them all on the straight and in good form before they HAD to throw the green.

With those huge fields if the SCCA has half a brain they will:
1) run the pace lap down through the oval T1 so there's time for everyone to form up
2) put an alternative starter stand way down the straight on the pit side and throw a late green from there. Otherwise, the back of the field will just go on exit from the infield and catch the front of the pack at T1, and there's a massive funnel there, and the carnage will be spectacular.

[Ray Rivard]

Update from SCCA in March, 2017:

Field sizes and overall event subscription
We have carefully crafted an event plan that can accommodate up to 900 cars in the main paddock (within the outline of the road course) with additional space outside of the oval on the north end. Because of this, it will not be necessary to limit the overall number of entries.
A maximum of 72 cars can be on course at one time due to the length of the circuit. If a single class has more than 72 cars, the field will be split into multiple groups for qualifying. While a maximum of 72 cars will start the Championship races, we will utilize a “Last Chance” qualifying race on Thursday for any classes with more than 72 cars, ensuring each participating driver will have the opportunity to take a green flag at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[andyllc]

I am still jacked up for the Runoffs. Going to be a great event and likely an event where we will never see a higher turnout of overall entries with it being over 1000. Our group is beyond max capacity as are others and several more groups getting close.
If you were in charge, what would you do?
This is not SCCA bashing, not open wheel is dying, not Indy is stupid because it is a roval, etc. None of that

For me, I would rather only have three qual sessions instead of four if that means every class has their own session. Even if this means there is a day Mon-Thur that we don't get on track, oh well. I think 3-20 minute sessions sounds better to me than 4-15 minute sessions. Heck, 3-15 minute sessions by ourselves even sounds fine to me.

What do you all think?
(I realize we don't really have a say in it. Just curious and this is not a let's bash SCCA thread, just conversation)

Separate note, good on Honda. Honda is paying $500 to anyone that start the race in FF. That's not bad! Helps make that entry fee seem like a normal Major event.

[jchracer]

I'm with you. I would rather have less sessions/less track time and run qualifying with FF only. Eighty cars on track with two classes is going to be an absolute crap shoot to get anything approaching a clean lap.

[bhayes]

Yes the qualifying sessions will be interesting. But I'm happy to see so much excitement for this race. I would much rather be talking about how we will have too many cars on track, than talking about small fields. Indy is a special place, and this will be a special event. There will surely be challenges with the high entry count. Hopefully each of us can get a few clean laps to set the grid for the big race!

I'm not sure there is a good way to address this with the given time available. But I would be open to somehow splitting the alloted time between the classes. Split our 20 minute sessions in half. Run FF for the first 10 minutes, F500 for the second 10 minutes. Then swap who goes first each day. So FF goes first twice, and F500 goes first twice. Maybe something like this could work.

No matter how it plays out, hopefully we can all make the most of it, and enjoy the experience!

[Raceworks]

At this point they have to split the group up. Insurance won't let them run more than 72 cars on the track at one time.

[cory mcleod]

Sorry to crash the FF party, but I think most of the F500 guys would also be in favor of shorter sessions if we could run alone. It may not be the right time now, since Topeka is obviously dealing with a lot, but I wonder if we should attempt to petition the SCCA together regarding how they split qualifying?

[andyllc]

Again, I am not sure that we will have any real input regardless but what would be better? 10 min sessions for 4 days or 20 minutes sessions on only 2 days? (Under the assumption of single class at a time on track).

[Lotus7]

Countering my own post above, there is a definite negative to the possibility that some may find themselves loading in Sunday afternoon, running 20 minutes on Monday and Wednesday, then having a 30-ish minute race Sunday afternoon .... 8 days on site for barely an hour of track time.

[recaryob]

I'm with Andy and Brad. I am so excited about heading to Indy next month I can stand it. A whole week of playing race car at Indy. What I am I going to look forward to after Sept? I just hope everyone remembers that the race is on Friday, and no one is going to win in the first turn. (me included) Have you seen turn one, lap one of some of the Indy car races before this year's?

That said, I am all for anyway we can get a dedicated track for quali either by shorter sessions or one less session. Though I have to agree with Sam. At this point, I think it will be decided for us as there are two many registered for a combined qualifying anyway.

Looking forward to it!

Cheers

[Raceworks]

Again, I am not sure that we will have any real input regardless but what would be better? 10 min sessions for 4 days or 20 minutes sessions on only 2 days? (Under the assumption of single class at a time on track).

I'd be down for 4 shorter sessions.

[Raceworks]

Countering my own post above, there is a definite negative to the possibility that some may find themselves loading in Sunday afternoon, running 20 minutes on Monday and Wednesday, then having a 30-ish minute race Sunday afternoon .... 8 days on site for barely an hour of track time.

8 days on site for an hour and a half wasn't a much better deal. Either way I try to find other things to do with all the extra spare time. Otherwise you can fall into the temptation of messing with the car and engineering yourself slower.

For some suggestions: https://www.visitindy.com/indianapol...#/loadedpage=1

[Raceworks]

I'm with Andy and Brad. I am so excited about heading to Indy next month I can stand it. A whole week of playing race car at Indy. What I am I going to look forward to after Sept? I just hope everyone remembers that the race is on Friday, and no one is going to win in the first turn. (me included) Have you seen turn one, lap one of some of the Indy car races before this year's?

That said, I am all for anyway we can get a dedicated track for quali either by shorter sessions or one less session. Though I have to agree with Sam. At this point, I think it will be decided for us as there are two many registered for a combined qualifying anyway.

Looking forward to it!

Cheers

It's probably for the best overall. FF's & F5's don't play very well together. If we had only half the entries & they were still combined I seriously doubt we'd gotten anything close to 20 minute sessions.

[Roland V. Johnson]

The problem with making two shorter sessions is that the down time between sessions is doubled.

[DaveW]

The problem with making two shorter sessions is that the down time between sessions is doubled.

Several times that has been done lining up the 2nd group to go out a minute or 2 after the checkered is thrown on the 1st. That results in almost no downtime. We had that several times at the Mid Ohio Runoffs.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Several times that has been done lining up the 2nd group to go out a minute or 2 after the checkered is thrown on the 1st. That results in almost no downtime. We had that several times at the Mid Ohio Runoffs.

If you have an alternate start/finish (say after turn 10) for qualifying, you can send group 2 out immediately after the last car before the checker passes pit out. They can follow the last guy on his last lap.

Start/finish just needs to callout the last car to the hot pit starter.....

This way you can run the track hot continuously..... and only break every hour or so...

[Peter Olivola]

This approach, feed on/feed off, works well where the lap time differences aren't huge and where there is minimal clean up on a track that doesn't have close walls.

It's much more difficult to manage where you have significant lap time differences and when clean up is needed, throwing the whole thing into a cocked hat. Keep in mind, the trend is toward only providing assistance to a disabled car on a cold track or fully controlled field situation.

The Runoffs at Indy is not an event/track where that technique can be used to gain much, if any, operational time.

If you have an alternate start/finish (say after turn 10) for qualifying, you can send group 2 out immediately after the last car before the checker passes pit out. They can follow the last guy on his last lap.

Start/finish just needs to callout the last car to the hot pit starter.....

This way you can run the track hot continuously..... and only break every hour or so...

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This approach, feed on/feed off, works well where the lap time differences aren't huge and where there is minimal clean up on a track that doesn't have close walls.

It's much more difficult to manage where you have significant lap time differences and when clean up is needed, throwing the whole thing into a cocked hat. Keep in mind, the trend is toward only providing assistance to a disabled car on a cold track or fully controlled field situation.

The Runoffs at Indy is not an event/track where that technique can be used to gain much, if any, operational time.

I figured cleanup is cleanup and takes time no matter the format.

The big thing is to get cars off ASAP and that is accomplished by having pit-in just AFTER start-finish. It eliminates that last lazy cool down lap. For cars coming on they get 50-60% of a lap to warm up before starting timed laps. Essentially eliminates 2 laps in the transition.

Just a thought/suggestion. I'll leave it up to you experienced guys.

[Peter Olivola]

I don't know the configuration of Indy so wouldn't want to speculate on whether this can be done. Is there a place to exit at the north end of the pit wall?

I figured cleanup is cleanup and takes time no matter the format.

The big thing is to get cars off ASAP and that is accomplished by having pit-in just AFTER start-finish. It eliminates that last lazy cool down lap. For cars coming on they get 50-60% of a lap to warm up before starting timed laps. Essentially eliminates 2 laps in the transition.

Just a thought/suggestion. I'll leave it up to you experienced guys.

[jchracer]

Interesting idea. Perhaps just move the timing stripe for qualifying to the back strait so that a checker could be thrown on the back strait and in the esses. With the short qualifying sessions it could result in an extra qualifying lap for many people.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

According to this map, the normal pit entrance is at turn 13. As long as the qualifying start/finish is before turn 12, people can exit there immediately rather that having to drive another lap.

https://goo.gl/images/djQkGi

Send people on coarse at the normal place.

So it's no change in where the enter/exit, just the placement of the start/finish - and no cool down laps....

[Rick Kirchner]

At the north end of the pits there is a very narrow access lane back into the paddock behind the tower terrace. its so narrow the SVRA guys had to get your attention to find it. theres no way you could take the checker on the front straight and get hauled down enough to turn across the end of the pit wall and into that hole.

better choice is to go thru turn 1 and enter the paddock via the fire truck access there. Don't know how they would make that work with impound and the podium though

[Pop Chevy]

There is an exit at the end of the pit wall, you have to be in the pit lane to use it though. I was at the 1st SVRA race with 700 cars parking was nuts . My 1st qualifying session had 52 cars in it with a large speed differential , MOST exciting.

[Peter Olivola]

There's precedent for this (Mid-Ohio and the old timing location at Road America.) The remaining questions are where are timing loops located and is there an appropriate place to display the checker flag. The latter needs to be at or after the timing loop and sufficiently before the pit entrance to give people a chance to slow down safely.

According to this map, the normal pit entrance is at turn 13. As long as the qualifying start/finish is before turn 12, people can exit there immediately rather that having to drive another lap.

https://goo.gl/images/djQkGi

Send people on coarse at the normal place.

So it's no change in where the enter/exit, just the placement of the start/finish - and no cool down laps....

[recaryob]

Well, I guess FF and F500 are qualifying together for a combined total of 79. It should be interesting.

[Lotus7]

Well, I guess FF and F500 are qualifying together for a combined total of 79. It should be interesting.

Unless there's been a last minute change of plans, any group with 73+ entries will be split into a pair of 10 minute sessions.

[andyllc]

Unless there's been a last minute change of plans, any group with 73+ entries will be split into a pair of 10 minute sessions.

Where did you see this? I know there was speculation on the forums but I haven't found this anywhere from SCCA. Just curious. The entire session is only 18 minutes long anyways so we get 9 minutes?
Frankly at 25 cars per mile and the official listed track length, the limit should have been 65 cars to begin with, not 72.

[Lotus7]

supps, section 2.2 (unless I misinterpreted)

https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/022/226/2017_SCCA_Runoffs_Supps_v082817.pdf?1503952037

[andyllc]

Interesting....
The way I read that (with the carefully stricken through limit for groupings of 72 cars) says that we all go on track at once and only the actual races themselves will be limited to 72.

[racerjon1]

Where did you see this? I know there was speculation on the forums but I haven't found this anywhere from SCCA. Just curious. The entire session is only 18 minutes long anyways so we get 9 minutes?
Frankly at 25 cars per mile and the official listed track length, the limit should have been 65 cars to begin with, not 72.

Stewards have an option to raise the limit if needed - that's where the 72 comes from. I have also heard that there is a chance to raise the limit by a few more if needed, and there is the non committal confirmation of split sessions - as the e-mail yesterday said, "additional sessions may be added with approval from the Stewards of the Meet. Such additions may reduce the length of all sessions for the day."

I have tried to get more information on this (by walking down the hall from my desk in Topeka to the club racing department), and honestly I think it's going to end up to the stewards on site. In reality, it's very likely and probable that cars don't show and we end up under the "limit." It's possible that 80 cars feels fine. We just don't know until we get there, and my suspicion is that the stewards will take a "wait and see" approach to each of those wildcards.

[jimmy neutron]

-

[Raceworks]

Interesting....
The way I read that (with the carefully stricken through limit for groupings of 72 cars) says that we all go on track at once and only the actual races themselves will be limited to 72.

Well that's a profoundly bad idea. I just hope nobody gets killed.