The Group 5 Mess at VIR

[jcorsico]

All - I made an FE relevant post in the general forum - see http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...-Rules-Changes

[RussMcB]

I'm curious. What happened?

[jcorsico]

I'm curious. What happened?

We had a 25 minute race, where there was 2:30 under the green flag and 22:30 under a full course yellow.The idiocy displayed by both some of the drivers and the SCCA itself was breathtaking.

I had friends and business clients that drove 9 hours (round trip) to watch me "race". It was insane.

[KAMcDonald]

less than 22:30 under FCY....

total race time was 18:13, checkered early because they decided cleanup would not complete before 25 minute time limit, so made no sense to continue doing laps under FCY.

[jchracer]

I'm curious. What happened?

See this thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...978#post535978

[jcorsico]

less than 22:30 under FCY....

total race time was 18:13, checkered early because they decided cleanup would not complete before 25 minute time limit, so made no sense to continue doing laps under FCY.

Thank you Keith.

[KAMcDonald]

your welcome, just keeping you honest.

at least you did not call me out as one of those involved in the contact on pace lap 2 in hogpen that was partly cause of FCY....


DOH!

outed myself.....

[jcorsico]

your welcome, just keeping you honest.

at least you did not call me out as one of those involved in the contact on pace lap 2 in hogpen that was partly cause of FCY....


DOH!

outed myself.....

Your accident was caused by idiotic driving of other people behind the pace car. Had the moron in front you guys not allowed a 1/2 mile gap to accumulate between the back of the pack and the front of the pack, there wouldn't have been an accident in hogpen...

[KAMcDonald]

that is what I said....

[Paul Schneider]

The lack of talent in our run group is beyond pathetic. This whole season has been a disaster. Homestead, Sebring, NOLA, Road Atlanta, COTA, and VIR have all be marred by black flags, FCYs, and drivers running black flags and checkered flags (and it's usually the same drivers!). There's been no punishment until now at VIR for ridiculous violations. Also, the flag runners at VIR were told not to do it again. To me, that's not enough. It's time to start sending people home. The quality of racing this season has been non-existent. I feel like I've wasted my time and am ready to quit. I've absolutely had it. The SCCA is now chasing away good, compliant drivers because they allowed undeserving, talentless drivers to infest our grid. We were planning on running the Sprints, Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, and the rest of the GPFour series. Now we are forgoing the series championships and just focusing on the Runoffs. I can't do one more event and risk my sanity with the pathetic "racing" we're doing. I went home Saturday night due to family reasons, but my unhappiness played a large factor in our decision to leave as well. I am no longer having fun.

[iamuwere]

The group was a disaster.



The biggest problem in suggesting protests was my worst of the weekend was during the test day when every single part of the LR was taken out by a FF on the third test session. He was "adjusting his head surround" when he veered into my left rear with his right front. Everything was taken out and broken. Wheel, tire, upright, a-arms, drive shaft, toe link, wing, end plates, wing mount, suspension mounts--everything from hitting me while driving down the back straight.

Protests don't fix that.

[R. Pare]

If you do not protest stupid actions by drivers that harm others - especially if the idiot admits doing something stupid instead of driving - then don't blame just the Stewards when nothing happens to the idiot.

[iamuwere]

If you do not protest stupid actions by drivers that harm others - especially if the idiot admits doing something stupid instead of driving - then don't blame just the Stewards when nothing happens to the idiot.

I was told the SCCA had no standing over test days


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[jcorsico]

If you do not protest stupid actions by drivers that harm others - especially if the idiot admits doing something stupid instead of driving - then don't blame just the Stewards when nothing happens to the idiot.

Really? This ridiculous line of reasoning again? There was on-track contact during a practice session that disabled a car on track. Are you seriously saying that the stewards are so stupid that they cannot investigate that incident without a driver filling out a piece of paper that says "investigate the incident". Even if the flaggers were blind - literally blind - they could have heard that there was on track contact and a disabled car that required investigation.

The SCCA's rules enforcement system is completely and utterly broken. Demanding that the drivers fill out complex paperwork to hand to the stewards before the stewards investigate patently obvious on track incidents is utterly preposterous.

[cooleyjb]

Really? This ridiculous line of reasoning again? There was on-track contact during a practice session that disabled a car on track. Are you seriously saying that the stewards are so stupid that they cannot investigate that incident without a driver filling out a piece of paper that says "investigate the incident". Even if the flaggers were blind - literally blind - they could have heard that there was on track contact and a disabled car that required investigation.

The SCCA's rules enforcement system is completely and utterly broken. Demanding that the drivers fill out complex paperwork to hand to the stewards before the stewards investigate patently obvious on track incidents is utterly preposterous.

The flaggers are pretty busy since they are short staffed. Gone are the days of 5people on a corner. Calling in contact is pretty low on the list of priority for them. Most contact is not called in from my experience.

[Dave Gomberg]

In many (most?) cases, contact and other offenses (blocking, etc.) are not within view of a corner station. That, and the fact that the corner workers may be occupied with other things, is why drivers need to be willing to write paper.

Many cars now have on board video. If it backs up your claim, it makes it much easier for officials to take action.

If the offense is not seen by a corner and you (and others) refuse to bring it to the attention of officials, then nothing will be done about it.

Dave

[iamuwere]

But still a test day is not sanctioned by the SCCA so there isn't action to occur at all


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[farrout]

But still a test day is not sanctioned by the SCCA so there isn't action to occur at all

Although most tracks hold their own Test Days, some Test Days are sanctioned by SCCA and run by the local Region. The real question is that if SCCA sanctions a Test Day, do the full requirements etc of the GCR hold?

[Peter Olivola]

GCR Pg. 29
3.1.5. Practice Days
Practice Days are non-competition track days scheduled, sanctioned, and
insured under standards included in AppB. Practice Days are conducted
according to the GCR. In addition, the following standards apply:
A. A Practice Day sanction is valid for 1 day.
B. Each driver is an SCCA member holding an SCCA Full Competition
License, SCCA Pro License, Vintage License or an SCCA
Novice Permit showing Drivers’ School requirements signed off as
provided in AppC.2.7.D and F, or an SCCA approved license. A
Novice Permit holder who is participating in an Alternate Drivers’
School may participate in SCCA practice days in accordance with
the provisions of AppC.2.7.E.3.
C. 9.1 identifies the classes of cars eligible to compete in Practice
Days.
D. Officials meet the requirements of 5.1.3.
E. At a minimum, a Race Director or Chief Steward and Assistant
Chief Steward – Safety are required.
F. Unless required by the track, or local authorities or ordinances,
Sound Control is not in effect.
G. Staffing and equipment meet the requirements of 5.4. and 5.5.
H. Formula cars may be combined with Sports Racing cars, but may
not be combined with other categories.
I. A maximum of 25 cars per mile may be on the course simultaneously,
with no exception.

Although most tracks hold their own Test Days, some Test Days are sanctioned by SCCA and run by the local Region. The real question is that if SCCA sanctions a Test Day, do the full requirements etc of the GCR hold?

[jcorsico]

In many (most?) cases, contact and other offenses (blocking, etc.) are not within view of a corner station. That, and the fact that the corner workers may be occupied with other things, is why drivers need to be willing to write paper.

Many cars now have on board video. If it backs up your claim, it makes it much easier for officials to take action.

If the offense is not seen by a corner and you (and others) refuse to bring it to the attention of officials, then nothing will be done about it.

Dave

This is a massive problem. On track contact that results in disabled cars and a wrecker is not investigated unless some stupid paperwork is filled out first. That system is broken and needs to change.

[Dave Gomberg]

This is a massive problem. On track contact that results in disabled cars and a wrecker is not investigated unless some stupid paperwork is filled out first. That system is broken and needs to change.

I did not say that. I said if it is unseen (unreported) we can't do anything about it. Of course, in the type of incident you describe there would be an initial investigation by the Operating Steward or the Stewards of the Course. Depending on what is found, immediate penalty (Chief Steward's Action), referral to the Stewards of the Meeting (Request for Action) or, possibly, no action (if all parties agree that it was "just one of those things"). And, at the risk of repeating what others have pointed out, what happens on a track-run test day is not in SCCA's purview or control.

Dave

[jchracer]

I did not say that. I said if it is unseen (unreported) we can't do anything about it. Of course, in the type of incident you describe there would be an initial investigation by the Operating Steward or the Stewards of the Course. Depending on what is found, immediate penalty (Chief Steward's Action), referral to the Stewards of the Meeting (Request for Action) or, possibly, no action (if all parties agree that it was "just one of those things"). And, at the risk of repeating what others have pointed out, what happens on a track-run test day is not in SCCA's purview or control.

Dave

My experience with this very situation at last years Run-Offs would not encourage me to spend time on this in the future. I was struck from behind causing me to spin and lose a podium position. It was observed and reported by the corner workers. I would not have written the paper myself but since the paper was initiated by the stewards, I complied with answering questions that took several hours out of the time I could have been on the road. In the end, even though the evidence was obvious and plentiful (corner worker witnesses, multiple videos, mutual damage on both cars that looked like puzzle pieces being put together), the stewards ruled that insufficient evidence existed to apply a penalty. A huge waste of my time and a steward decision that only encourages future aggressive driving.

[jcorsico]

My experience with this very situation at last years Run-Offs would not encourage me to spend time on this in the future. I was struck from behind causing me to spin and lose a podium position. It was observed and reported by the corner workers. I would not have written the paper myself but since the paper was initiated by the stewards, I complied with answering questions that took several hours out of the time I could have been on the road. In the end, even though the evidence was obvious and plentiful (corner worker witnesses, multiple videos, mutual damage on both cars that looked like puzzle pieces being put together), the stewards ruled that insufficient evidence existed to apply a penalty. A huge waste of my time and a steward decision that only encourages future aggressive driving.

Exactly. This is what needs to change with the system. The SCCA cannot allow that type of behavior to exist unpenalized. The driver that hit you hurt you - and bore none of that pain himself. That it wrong.