Debacle at VIR; Rules Changes

[jcorsico]

Oh, but we have a culture that says you need to talk to the other guy first. And you're a jerk if you throw paper (with or without talking). And if you can find the other guy and talk to him - odds are you won't make the deadline to throw paper. And even if you do, the stewards may well walk over, inspect your car, say "no major damage" and decline to follow up (actually happened to a friend in a door-slammer class at VIR this past weekend, courtesy of a driver who should've stayed retired and has apparently been a clueless menace at every event this year).

This is the exact problem. The SCCA and the stewards refuse to do their job - which is to control behavior of the participants at the events (drivers and volunteers). The stewards in this message chain keep saying over and over that they can't do anything about out of control behavior unless the drivers first do A, B, C, D, E, F and G. And that the drivers are at fault for not doing A, B, C, D, E, F and G!

This is like the police yelling at the community that the police cannot enforce the law unless the community first finds the criminal, brings the criminal to the police, fills out lots of paperwork to give to the police, hands the police video evidence of the crime, and then proves the crime in court. And then maybe (maybe!) the police will impost a penalty on the criminal.

This system is horribly broken.

[John Nesbitt]

jcorsico writes: (Forum quote feature has 'peculiarities'.)

This is the exact problem. The SCCA and the stewards refuse to do their job - which is to control behavior of the participants at the events (drivers and volunteers). The stewards in this message chain keep saying over and over that they can't do anything about out of control behavior unless the drivers first do A, B, C, D, E, F and G. And that the drivers are at fault for not doing A, B, C, D, E, F and G!

This is like the police yelling at the community that the police cannot enforce the law unless the community first finds the criminal, brings the criminal to the police, fills out lots of paperwork to give to the police, hands the police video evidence of the crime, and then proves the crime in court. And then maybe (maybe!) the police will impost a penalty on the criminal.

This system is horribly broken.

What is the lawyer's maxim - When the law is on your side, argue the law; when the facts are on your side, argue the facts; when neither is on your side, jump and down and shout.

I think that you are over-egging the cake.

Go back and read Peter's post #36. That is how serious stewards work. If you encounter an official who cannot/will not do his job, complain to the Chief Steward, file a protest, reach out to the Executive Steward. At the same time, recognize that you have a role to play in rules enforcement.

[Thomas Copeland]

I was at VIR in your run group. Here's what I what I got:

Thursday:

1st session: 2 laps before black flag incident.
2nd session: 3 laps before black flag incident.
3rd session: 5 laps before black flag incident.
4th session: Chain broke did not run. But session shorten by black flag.

Friday/Saturday/Sunday:

Practice: 5 laps before black flag incident.
Q1: 4 laps laps I think before black flag incident.
Q2: I think 4 or 5 laps. Can't remember if there was a blag flag (must have been suffering from BF fatigue by then)
Race 1: 1 1/2 laps before black flag incident.
Race 2: About half distance before shifter broke, but the race went full distance without black flag I think. This was after the group was split up into 2 separate groups.

I've seen these situations before and I knew when I saw 52 entries it was going to be a black flag festival. Just too many cars on track at one time (and yeah, a few hot dogs which makes it worst). There are always going to be racing incidents (I even spun on 8 cycle tires in practice-but no black flag, I also had my shifter break on the back straight in the race but got off the track out of the way-no black flag, and have never hit another car-ever). I saw more than 1 black flag situation last weekend where I saw the same car involved. The volunteer workers did a great job I thought considering how many incidents they were dealing with. Again more cars = more incidents.

Your letter while addressing your frustrations and might be a start but they need to solve the real issue. The formula for considering how many cars should be on track at one time. They should have split this group up once it hit 40 cars.

[jcorsico]

If you encounter an official who cannot/will not do his job, complain to the Chief Steward, file a protest, reach out to the Executive Steward. At the same time, recognize that you have a role to play in rules enforcement.

Paper! Paper! Paper! The path to fixing the SCCA is more paper. Plus, it's the driver's fault that the stewards don't enforce the rules. But paper!

John - I do respect you greatly. I just think you are wrong on this particular point. Fundamental changes are needed; the SCCA's policing system is totally broken.

Jon

[Eric Cruz]

Sorry, Jon. Did not realize that was you. Bob - thank you for the kind words. WE missed having you and Elliot there.

Best regards,
Eric

[Robert Finlayson]

Wanted to come but it looks like we didn't miss much. Long drive for 1 race!

[John Nesbitt]

[/INDENT]...

John - I do respect you greatly. I just think you are wrong on this particular point. ...

Jon

Imagine how dull life would be if we all agreed about everything all the time.

No need for lawyers.

[jcorsico]

Imagine how dull life would be if we all agreed about everything all the time.

No need for lawyers.

This was legitimately funny. [emoji3]

Except I'm not that type of lawyer - I only so corporate work. Never go to court or represent clients in disputes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lotus7]

Hopefully not too far off-topic,
but how many guys following this (and similar) threads are driving FF, FC, or FA, and are NOT coming to the VIR pro event next weekend?
Really, why the heck not?

If I'm not mistaken, Bob and his team even have a sweet "first-timer" deal as a taster...

[bill gillespie]

Hopefully not too far off-topic,
but how many guys following this (and similar) threads are driving FF, FC, or FA, and are NOT coming to the VIR pro event next weekend?
Really, why the heck not?

If I'm not mistaken, Bob and his team even have a sweet "first-timer" deal as a taster...

Ian,
Wasnt planning on coming because too slow after a long layoff....I'm starting to rethink that decision based on safety at recent races at Cota, Rd Atl, and VIR.

Regards,
Bill

[mmi16]

[/INDENT]
Paper! Paper! Paper! The path to fixing the SCCA is more paper. Plus, it's the driver's fault that the stewards don't enforce the rules. But paper!

John - I do respect you greatly. I just think you are wrong on this particular point. Fundamental changes are needed; the SCCA's policing system is totally broken.

Jon

SCCA (and the 21st Century world) is just like taking a dump. It's not over until the paperwork is done!

[jcorsico]

SCCA (and the 21st Century world) is just like taking a dump. It's not over until the paperwork is done!

It seems apt to compare the SCCA rules enforcement process to wiping your ass.

[Zonker]

This is the exact problem. The SCCA and the stewards refuse to do their job - which is to control behavior of the participants at the events (drivers and volunteers). The stewards in this message chain keep saying over and over that they can't do anything about out of control behavior unless the drivers first do A, B, C, D, E, F and G. And that the drivers are at fault for not doing A, B, C, D, E, F and G!
.........

This system is horribly broken.

If the Stewards wait for a driver to protest they are trashed for not doing their job, but on the other hand if they do step in people criticize them as being "on a power trip".

They can't win.

[tdf4golf]

[SIZE=3]I think that the SCCA in the beginning was a well-founded organization,which has, because of the bureaucratic mess that it grew to be, lost its way.When you let the system become what it is, again "a bureaucraticmess", much like parts of our government, there’s bound to be problems.You get people setting up their own little fife domes and making rules, havinga protest process that is so arcane and complicated that you need an attorneyand allowing people to control rules, outcomes and what can and can't be doneas a function of justifying their existence, position or self-worth you havelost control. I ask you, do the professionally run events, have as manyproblems? I doubt it because a “relatively” small staff has total control overthe series or event. The most functional system of governing is a benigndictatorship. That is not what the SCCA is. The competing race organizationsthat are being successful at this point and putting on good events haven't orwon't let their organization end up being run by the "inmates" so tospeak. They have simple rules, a process for dealing with protests that should allowfor no more than one appeal from each party involved and a steward panel withthe authority, like the Supreme Court, to come down with a FINAL decision, andthat's the end of it. Then things would run more smoothly. I know that it ismuch more complicated than this but tough decisions need to be made if the SCCAis to survive. I wish I had all the answers but I know one thing for sure. Ifyou let "to many chefs in the kitchen they will spoil the broth" touse and old phrase and I think that the SCCA needs to go through a housecleaning and streamlining process. I wish the organization good luck with thefuture and hope that something will be done to solve its problems.
Signed,
[/SIZE]
Once a SCCA member hoping for better times for all.

[jcorsico]

If the Stewards wait for a driver to protest they are trashed for not doing their job, but on the other hand if they do step in people criticize them as being "on a power trip".

They can't win.

Fine. So the stewards should abdicate all responsibility. That's the solution. You should suggest this idea to the police. Tell them to not enforce the law unless victims first come to them to complain. That's clearly the best way to have an ordered and law abiding society.

[KAMcDonald]

Fine. So the stewards should abdicate all responsibility. That's the solution. You should suggest this idea to the police. Tell them to not enforce the law unless victims first come to them to complain. That's clearly the best way to have an ordered and law abiding society.

not a great example jon. if the police do not see the violation, they cannot take action, victims do file complaints. how many cop shows have you seen where the cop says there is nothing they can do because the victim does not want to press charges?

the stewards are in the tower, they may hear about something over the net, corner worker calling in a pass under yellow, four wheels off, metal to metal contact (in our case wheel to wheel)...

no one is saying that a steward cannot take/initiate action on their own, what is being said is that we as drivers have the responsibility of bringing things to their attention. griping about it in these forums is a way to get things out in the open, but we have to do things at the event, yes, in many cases with paper, for a steward to take official action.

what do you want, some TV viewer calling in a violation and having penalties assessed like they did with that golfer a couple weeks ago when she placed her ball an inch closer to the green so she was penalized several strokes and lost 1st place?

[Zonker]

Fine. So the stewards should abdicate all responsibility. That's the solution. You should suggest this idea to the police. Tell them to not enforce the law unless victims first come to them to complain. That's clearly the best way to have an ordered and law abiding society.

That is not what I said. I just pointed out that no matter what the Stewards do somebody will be unhappy.

[mmi16]

From reading through this thread it would appear that nothing will make jcorsico happy.

[Zambo]

From reading through this thread it would appear that nothing will make jcorsico happy.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think that there are a wide variety of view points set forth that center around the idea of direct culpability for one's actions. The issue is that remains to be solved is how to implement the same. I can see the frustration associated with continually moving the proverbial ball around. Rules are there for a reason. Why shouldn't they be enforced? Conversely, there are, sometimes, a bad confluence of events which occur because there are a perfect set of bad circumstances. I believe Jon sets forth an alternate method of trying to address the situation.

Making him happy is not the issue. Heck, I wish every car that passed me under yellow was penalized but, it hasn't happened. I could protest but, really, what does it matter? A bigger block of wood to collect dust? I believe, though I could be wrong, what Jon is truly disappointed in is when sincere effort is met with cavalier indifference; when the status quo is accepted instead of trying to find a better way. When the "unwritten rules" obfuscate the written (and interpreted) rules. It's easy to shoot one liners and launch cheeky comments at portions of any discussion. What would be seemly more productive would be to look at the issue as a whole and see what would make everyone happier.

I would think that all who have engaged in the argument from an officiating side and from driver's point of view bring a great mix to the table. Why not suggest an alternate method of penalties if it's too draconian? How about bringing a bunch of cameras and a few DVR"s to have video evidence? I don't profess to have the answer but, I am more than willing to hear all sides of the argument. Many is the time I have spent hard earned money and time off from work only to be met with 5 minutes of run time at a practice day.

With that, Thunderdome shall re-commence.
Zambo

[jcorsico]

Respectfully, I disagree. I think that there are a wide variety of view points set forth that center around the idea of direct culpability for one's actions. The issue is that remains to be solved is how to implement the same. I can see the frustration associated with continually moving the proverbial ball around. Rules are there for a reason. Why shouldn't they be enforced? Conversely, there are, sometimes, a bad confluence of events which occur because there are a perfect set of bad circumstances. I believe Jon sets forth an alternate method of trying to address the situation.

Making him happy is not the issue. Heck, I wish every car that passed me under yellow was penalized but, it hasn't happened. I could protest but, really, what does it matter? A bigger block of wood to collect dust? I believe, though I could be wrong, what Jon is truly disappointed in is when sincere effort is met with cavalier indifference; when the status quo is accepted instead of trying to find a better way. When the "unwritten rules" obfuscate the written (and interpreted) rules. It's easy to shoot one liners and launch cheeky comments at portions of any discussion. What would be seemly more productive would be to look at the issue as a whole and see what would make everyone happier.

I would think that all who have engaged in the argument from an officiating side and from driver's point of view bring a great mix to the table. Why not suggest an alternate method of penalties if it's too draconian? How about bringing a bunch of cameras and a few DVR"s to have video evidence? I don't profess to have the answer but, I am more than willing to hear all sides of the argument. Many is the time I have spent hard earned money and time off from work only to be met with 5 minutes of run time at a practice day.

With that, Thunderdome shall re-commence.
Zambo

Very well stated. Thank you Steve

[jcorsico]

From reading through this thread it would appear that nothing will make jcorsico happy.

I would be overjoyed if my rules proposal were adopted. Or any alternative rules proposal that attempted to achieve the same goal. I would even be happy (albeit, less so) with a simple statement from the SCCA that they are going to work harder to enforce their existing rules.

In fact, the only thing I have battled in this thread are the same old excuses that are trotted out again and again as to why the SCCA can't fix this problem (or that this problem doesn't even exist). Every single debate in this thread has gone like this: Corsico complains; somebody defends the status quo; Corsico continues to complain; somebody continues to defend the status quo.

There are a million ways to fix the problems I identified. I don't really care what methods are used to fix these problems. All I want is track time, free of idiots who are going to crash into me and ruin my weekend. I am incredibly easy to please. All the SCCA has to do is host an event that gives me time to drive my race car and not get hit by some bozo. It's super simple.

[Peter Olivola]

https://www.crbscca.com/ is how to request a rules change.

[Rick Kirchner]

In 2014 I helped a guy who crewed for me for many years make it to the runoffs. He drove an STU. first majors race we went to at INDE he was punted by a competitor running behind him on the last lap. no pass for position needed as this guy was an STL. The ensuing spin and nose in into a dirt berm caused a bunch of front bodywork damage, and resulted in my friend going from 3rd to last in class. the benefactor was the STL guys dad, who was running several seconds behind my friend in STU.....

No action taken.

[Charles Warner]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

These arguments/points of debate/frustrations have been around for decades. I hear some good points and a bunch of whining.

What many forget (or ignore) is that this hobby is a club that is based on voluntary activity from its members. That is whether the member is a racer, official, worker, or whatever. The changing of our cultural demographics and the increase in disposable income have contributed to a lack of worker bees and an increase in players. If you can't put on a race properly because of a lack of workers then what are you to do? My region (when I belonged) cancelled several races, including nationals, due to an inability of providing proper staffing. It isn't easy to attract qualified workers in many specialties from hundreds of miles away, who pay their own transportation, hotels, and meals, and ask them to stand out in the rain/sun for hours on end for the glory of it all (and maybe a box lunch).

That said, one of the major problems of the past decade or so has been the size and make-up of the run groups. The SCCA, in its corporate idiocy, created way too many classes because there were people who wanted to run their Mazda-powered, Nissan-based, F3 car and there was nowhere to run. Corporate greed played a part as well. In any case, we bastardized the class structure and now are faced with inordinate numbers of cars at events. The Club refuses to limit the participation because (1) never turn down entry fees, and (2) don't piss off the competitors.

The 107% rule was based on a class speed when only one class was in the group. Its purpose is to limit catching the back-markers who can affect the race outcome and allow the leaders the opportunity of racing full distance. Given an assumed 120 second lap, with a limitation of 107%, the leaders should never catch the slowest car (barring unforeseen conditions) even in a 45 minute race (the length of national races when the rule was adopted). Applying this rule in multi-class groups based on each class is inane. Applying this type of rule to the overall group is the only possible strategy. I have been the fastest car in the group by a long shot (F3000 versus Spec Racer) and also the slowest car in the group by a long shot (S2000 versus a Schumacher Ferrari F1). Both situations tend to reduce the fun racing and increase the already inherent risk of our hobby. Will the application of this rule mean that some cars will have to go home (not compete)? Probably. So, you either pick up the speed or choose a car that can compete.

It is a hobby. Some want to structure it ala F1, NASCAR, FIA etc. That only drives people away. An increase in protests? Maybe it will help. However, when I used to read the protests in the magazine I was always amazed when legal tactics were displayed, lawsuits developed, etc. The OP is frustrated that he spent money and time and didn't get to race as much as he wanted and impress his friends. Stuff happens. Get over it. Yes, it is frustrating to only get one green lap in a race. It has happened to all of us. Cars that should not be on track? Tech/Race Director are responsible in the end. Slow drivers who should not be there? Licensing is the culprit. (Am I advocating going back to Novice, Regional, National style qualification levels and races? Yes!) This system was screwed up because the Club wanted more participation and the yearning racer wanna-bes did not want to have to progress up the ladder. (It's called progression for a reason.)

Instead of trying to create a Draconian system of punishments that doesn't apportion blame, realize where the problem lies.

Run groups are too big and diverse. Driver ability levels are too disparate. Remove the basic problem areas and you might find that many of the incidents are taken care of. How many racers are reasonably confident when racing on the track with other drivers? If I'm racing Dave W. I trust him because I know his experience. Same with many others I have known for years. I know that the drivers in my vintage group are competent as they have been vetted and have the experience needed to play with the big boys. Can the same be said for any SCCA race?

Has the Club digressed so far with easy licensing and mega-run-groups that it can not go back without disenfranchising many racers? That may be the pertinent question. In any event, whining and calling people idiots (I mentioned the idiocy of the Club in a corporate reflection) and calling for a total revamp of the rules to protect racers from the possible frustrations of black flags or curtailed sessions in not on.

Other areas of contention stem from different race tracks owned by different people who have their own way of doing things that may slow the event down. Possibly the Club could form some sort of group that can coordinate with these tracks to develop and common guideline for Club events? Just a thought.

In any case, use the system as designed to change it for the good. Do your part by challenging poor behavior, but within the bounds of decency and professionalism. I applaud the OP for taking the time to write a letter to the powers-that-be. However, some of the points made are over the top as this is a hobby fraught with vagaries and stunningly weird occurrences. Not all situations can be provided for in the rules.

And, if you can not afford to walk back to the pits carrying nothing but a steering wheel, then you are in the wrong sport, mate.

[jcorsico]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

The SCCA deserves to go out of business if it is incapable of hosting an actual race. What happened at VIR (and many other SCCA events I have attended) was not racing. And me pointing out this fact is not "whining" and the answer is not for me to "get over it".

I like many of your ideas. In particular, a revamp in the licensing system could help a lot. But accepting the status quo is not the path forward.

And, if you can not afford to walk back to the pits carrying nothing but a steering wheel, then you are in the wrong sport, mate.

This argument again? Really? So I'm supposed to be so rich - so stinking rich - that I don't care if some bozo destroys my car, ruins my weekend, and causes me to spend hundreds of hours of my personal time to fix the mess he made. Basically, I'm supposed to be so rich that I don't care if I get shafted.

If that's your attitude, there isn't a single person on this planet who would want to join your SCCA. Nobody - not even the richest person in the world - is happy getting shafted.

[jcorsico]

https://www.crbscca.com/ is how to request a rules change.

Unreal. I send a letter to the Chairman of the Board of the SCCA, the entire SCCA Board of Directors, and several of the competition heads. And Peter tells me that I've done it wrong, and instead should have submitted a form on the internet.

Peter will probably tell me next that the SCCA should ignore my letter, because it wasn't submitted through the proper GCR mandated process.

[jcorsico]

No action taken.

Yep. And Rick - you're supposed to be okay with that outcome. That contact was just a racing incident. And in an amateur sport like this (which people only participate in for the fun), that type of behavior is perfectly tolerable.

[Peter Olivola]

You letter will probably get consideration. I thought, since you seem to be rather weak on GCR and process knowledge, that I was providing helpful information.

Unreal. I send a letter to the Chairman of the Board of the SCCA, the entire SCCA Board of Directors, and several of the competition heads. And Peter tells me that I've done it wrong, and instead should have submitted a form on the internet.

Peter will probably tell me next that the SCCA should ignore my letter, because it wasn't submitted through the proper GCR mandated process.

[farrout]

And, if you can not afford to walk back to the pits carrying nothing but a steering wheel, then you are in the wrong sport, mate.

Although that adage has been around for a long time and has some truth to it, it does not necessarily apply to all situations.

I and many of my friends are in this sport because we like it. Some of my goals every weekend are to drive hard, be faster than I was before, and bring the car home in one piece. That mostly means that I am not going to pull off a stupid pass on someone during a test day or during qual. The test day part is obvious. Qual is as simple as you have already slowed down some and it is not your fastest lap so why endanger yourself and another driver? In a race, I am a cautious driver in that I do know the difference between a safe pass and an unsafe pass. The unsafe pass gets to stay in the box and not be used.

Maybe strict adherence to your adage is why we see so many black flags, FCY, and pace car laps in almost all of the Majors these days. If that sort of "racing" is fun for drivers, great for them - but it is not fun as I see it. When racing ceases to be fun, it will cease to be for drivers. That is something none of us want to see.

[JByers]

To many classes and to many wankers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SCCA would be doing themselves a favor to start sending drivers home who are not up to the expected level of performance.

[Zonker]

In 2014 I helped a guy who crewed for me for many years make it to the runoffs. He drove an STU. first majors race we went to at INDE he was punted by a competitor running behind him on the last lap. no pass for position needed as this guy was an STL. The ensuing spin and nose in into a dirt berm caused a bunch of front bodywork damage, and resulted in my friend going from 3rd to last in class. the benefactor was the STL guys dad, who was running several seconds behind my friend in STU.....

No action taken.

Was a protest filed? Did he talk to the Stewards?

[mmi16]

To many classes and to many wankers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SCCA would be doing themselves a favor to start sending drivers home who are not up to the expected level of performance.

I guess the Rolex 24 and Sebring 12 Hours should only run Prototypes as the rest of the field is of significantly performance potential.

[Charles Warner]

I guess the Rolex 24 and Sebring 12 Hours should only run Prototypes as the rest of the field is of significantly performance potential.

The general level of drivers at these events is way above the average SCCA driver quality. Yes, there may be some that are not up to snuff, but for the most part . . . . . .

[mmi16]

The general level of drivers at these events is way above the average SCCA driver quality. Yes, there may be some that are not up to snuff, but for the most part . . . . . .

The Pro's don't believe the amateurs are up to snuff, and whine about it at every opportunity.