Deep Sump

[veeracer98]

Probably another can of worms but who's running the 1.5 L sump and has it helped with bearing failures? Seems like it would be an advantage on tracks with high speed ovals.

[Hardingfv32]

Most bearing failures come from a momentary lack of oil/pressure at the bearing surface. Assuming reasonable temperatures... oil starvation is the usual culprit. A bigger oil reserve will be a benefit in this situation. A secondary benefit is an increase in the time the oil spends if the sump. Research indicates that this dwell time improves oil quality by allowing entrapped air to escape.

Since most aftermarket sumps are too deep for modern FVs... custom sumps are usually required @ about $500. Not an easy decision and one not favored by most of the FV engine builders.

Contact me for more information.
Brian

[Dave J]

I've seen these installed on a couple of formula vees:

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1770.htm

They are low profile and not very expensive...

[TJSFVGUY]

When did this become legal? I thought the max allowable volume was still 250cc, I see that it's now 1500cc.

[Steve Davis]

When did this become legal? I thought the max allowable volume was still 250cc, I see that it's now 1500cc.

That was added to the GCR quite a number of years ago. The FVAHC decided that the 250cc restriction did not make sense and that the 1.5 liter extensions that were available were NOT a performance advantage - therefore, we petitioned the CRB to allow it in the GCR.

BTW ... I would add that the odds are, ONLY adding the additional sump capacity is relatively UNLIKELY to solve your problem. If you are burning bearings over and over, you probably have a different problem. If you are building your own engines, I might suggest that you have your engine gone through by one of the builders that specialize in FV. You could save yourself a TON of money in the long run.

[veeracer98]

Steve,

Are you saying the name brand builders don't have bearing failures?

My personal experience would repudiate this.

[ExKartracer]

I ran FV for a number of years in SoCal, built my own engines and did fairly well. I never had a bearing failure that I remember - dropped an exhaust valve because it ran out of "life"!
I had my cranks nitrided and an extra .001" ground off the center main, the "racing" baffle had 2 blades welded to the bottom of it along the case split. They extended from the pickup to the end of the case. Oil was forced to go past the sump during cornering. Finally there were aluminum tubes in the drain back holes that the push rod tubes roughly sealed against to minimize oil going up the tubes when cornering. All using only the "250cc sump"
My $0.02

Sharland #7 - lime green 1993/94 John Rounds

[Steve Davis]

Steve,

Are you saying the name brand builders don't have bearing failures?

My personal experience would repudiate this.

Would never say that anyone "never has a bearing failure".. Just that in MY experience, I had MANY bearing failures in my early years building my own engines. I FINALLY got a handle on it, but I wasted at least 6 years of my racing career and untold numbers of $DOLLARS$ on more rebuilds than I care to remember.

Since that time (using 'pro' builders), I have had approximately 4? bearing failures over the remaining 34 years of FV racing. I have always wished I could get that 6 years back.

Ummm.. I guess I should add that moving to the 'pro' builders moved me from the BACK of the lead pack (best I could do) to the FRONT of the lead pack... at least some of the time.

[Jeremy Soule]

Not exactly an answer to your question but seems how no one else wrote in with actual experience...
I installed the 1.5 qt. sump on my 1600cc (homebuilt without a scraper) as it fits real nicely between my frame rails about the same dimensions as the original main sump, see photos. I was impressed with the general quality of the kit ( CB performance as in the link post#3), but the pickup extension supplied with the kit actually didn't extend down into the sump too far, assuming I installed it correctly.
During the test session at a rather large local go kart track I did get a flash from the warning light during a sharp turn (not a sweeper) about 10 minutes into the test, I let the engine drop to an idle, pressure seemed fine, but I terminated the session. I didn't see the gauge dip so it could've been an electrical issue and I'm going to disassemble and review the pickup situation in the next few weeks. Also I used the bung in the deep sump for my oil temp sensor, the oil was barely getting warm at all which leads me to believe the oil wasn't circulating down there.
So this is where I am with that unit so far.

[Drake]

"I had my cranks nitrided and an extra .001" ground off the center main"

What was the reasoning for the .001 ground off the center?

Did you ever find what was causing your bearing failures?

[Drake]

Steve,

You mentioned you "finally got a handle on it" concerning bearing failures. What did you find?

[Steve Davis]

I had quite the number of issues in my early days. The first and biggest was the oil cooler. Using the original VW cooler and too much oil pressure "blew it up" and closed off all of the air travel through the unit. I ruined several of them trying to increase the pressure to stop bearing failure .. stupid me. Finally a guy with some VW experience dropped by my garage one day and spotted that problem from 5 feet away. After that, I had issues with rod side clearance.. some too tight and some too loose. There is a PROPER mount of clearance required to get the "right amount" of oil flow THROUGH the rod bearings. It MUST flow into and out of the rod bearing. After that, I really didn't have enough oil cooling to begin with. Synthetic wasn't "in vogue" yet at that time (late 70's) and I was picking up the temp from the sump. The oil turned into GLUE at about 350 degrees, but my pickup said I was running about 250. I finally moved the oil temp pickup to INLINE where the oil reenters the case (at the bypass point) and found out just how high the temp was that I was feeding to the bearings (>350). Add to that, building quite sophisticated oil sump baffling (swinging doors) to keep the oil around the pickup under high g loads. Further issues with head temps (didn't have CHT in my early days) led to an inability to control the oil temp. Had to redesign my car to get a hold of that one. .. and on and on to more fine points - but that's the gist of it.

[problemchild]

I used the extended sump, similar to shown, for atleast the middle year of the 3 years that I ran FST. Because I never had any bottom end issues, I was able to drop the oil level and keep the moving pieces further away from the reservoir of oil. This sump is nicer because it has its own lower cover and therefore better access to the mounting hardware. That looks easier to install than the ones using the original VW sump plate. Like any racing parts, installation and execution is critical. You cannot blame the extended sump if you fail to extend the pickup tube correctly.
Not all "pro" engine builders are created equal. The good ones know which bearings and components to use and how to prepare them. They know the proper clearances to have for every moving part. They have found machinists who cam machine to the quality they require and/or do it in house so they can maintain QC. Finally, they know how to properly assemble them, test them, and maintain them. Often, their biggest challenge is dealing with the human factor of their customers.
We all know one or two guys who use the same builder as others but have all the problems. If that is you, then you are not doing something correctly. It is not bad luck. You are the problem. You are not setting your oil level properly, or not keeping it inside. As Steve says, when you are dealing with the right guy, you can race for decades and count your failures on a few fingers. Because FV engines build oil temp, and slow down, as problems occur, drivers who are on the ball, can usually save it while repairable and not junk.
My comments are not directed at anybody in particular so take no offence please. There is no magic to keeping FV engines running, just as there is no magic to setting up zero-roll suspension or winning championships. Cheers!

[problemchild]

One other note: Do not think that because you have a bigger oil reservoir that baffles and windage control become unimportant, or can be removed. Exactly the opposite. You now have more oil to keep where you want it. If Harding is building bigger sumps, you can be sure, that he, and others, are developing all kinds of baffles, one-way flaps, scrapers, and fences to keep the crankshaft from running in as little oil as possible, just as I was a decade ago in FST.
Attachment 66895

Attachment 66896

[Drake]

Steve,

My book lists .004 to .016 thousands of an inch for rod side clearance. Is there a better Number to shoot for?

Also: Are the over the counter windage trays like below worth buying or junk.

http://chircoestore.com/windage-tray...w-engines.html

[Steve Davis]

I wouldn't call it junk. I would call it a decent starting point. In Greg's post above yours you can see the fit of the 'center wing' of the windage tray which does not exist in most commercial units. That is the part that addresses the left-right slosh in high-g corners.
Oh... and I haven't built my own engine in over 30 years now. Sorry I can't help on the side clearance other than to say IT'S CRITICAL!

[problemchild]

Drake, with all due respect to your desire to DIY, you live within several hours of the best FV engine builder in the country. If you must DIY, at least get Dave Carr to check out your case and do the machine work on your crank/rods assembly. It may be the best couple hundred dollars you can ever spend.

[ExKartracer]

To answer #10 - I did a lot of street bug motors and the center main always showed copper with high mileage. I gave it a little more clearance.
#15 - that was the baffle I used but welded 2 baffles (one either side of the pickup) between the holes that just touched the bottom of the case and fitted as tight as possible to the ends of the case.
Another trick was to open the flashing up on the head cooling fins to allow air to go thru!! Vee's do not have a blower to force the air thru.
I also made sure the oil cooler was situated so as not to trap air inside. Oil in at the bottom and out at the top. Not always convenient but very necessary.
Stock oil pump is all that I found was needed. Lap the 1 or 2 pressure relief pistons in (only the very end of the piston not the sides).
Sleeve the case at the center main studs to keep from fretting.
Deep stud the upper #3 head stud at the back of the case.
Hone the cylinders in the ring area with .001" taper (tight at the top)
and so on!!!!
Again - my $0.02

[Hardingfv32]

My book lists .004 to .016 thousands of an inch for rod side clearance. Is there a better Number to shoot for?

Also: Are the over the counter windage trays like below worth buying or junk.

1) The side clearance subject is a meth. The thought was that the clearance allowed more oil flow for better cooling. Ask yourself how you are going to create more oil flow when the clearance of your rod bearings is about .002". Where is all the extra oil suppose to come from?

2) At operating temps the oil is as thin as water. Any divider system has to fit perfectly. As the case surfaces are a combination of cast and machine surfaces the dividers require a lot of detailing.

If you are building your own engine you need the help of someone who knows what they are doing. Steve is absolutely correct in stating it takes a number of years to get an engine build right.

Brian
310 455-2724

[sagero]

Also I used the bung in the deep sump for my oil temp sensor, the oil was barely getting warm at all which leads me to believe the oil wasn't circulating down there.
So this is where I am with that unit so far.

I'd be very interested to hear if you or anybody else has more info on the deep sumps- successful and failed applications if there are any.

[Drake]

I imagine dry sump systems aren't worth talking about.

[Jeremy Soule]

Ahh no, you don't want to bring up that subject here

[Jeremy Soule]

To clarify the original poster asked about a 1.5 Liter deep sump while Dave J posted a link to CB performance 1.5 quart deep sump which is the one I used because is the same size as the engine sump and fits perfectly within my frame rails and doesn't stick below the frame rails where it could be damaged in an off.
As Greg says the more oil you have the more you need to control and while I'm very happy with the design and quality of this unit the pick up needs to be revamped. I think the lesson here is that while no one can really see what's happening to the oil inside the sump that experienced pro engine builders have developed and knowledge of how to control the oil keep it away from the crank and close to the pick up point.

[Hardingfv32]

Or you can use common sense....

With the 1.5 Lt sump you will always have access to .75 Lt no matter what normal driving condition you are experiencing. .75 Lt is more than enough to maintain oil pressure on the tracks we normally use. As an example you could be missing your outside valve cover in a big flat out sweeper and still have enough oil to complete the turn. No need for baffling.

Brian

[veeracer98]

Just theorizing, but at 1.5 gs that's like tipping the engine at around a 60 degree angle. I could still see the pickup being uncovered even with a 1.5 l sump?

[Hardingfv32]

BUT.... note that the extended sump is a closed chamber. The interior is probably about 2" high. You would only have to be concerned about the center round opening which would be about 3" tall when bolted to the existing crankcase.

Brian